Attribute balance thread

[dakuth]

A couple comments I wanted to through in:

 

1. Obsidian COULD rework the stats. Rework, then add an NPC in Gilded Vale that let's you respend. People who want can go there and redesign their mains (and custom NPCs.) No big deal, I think (Itemisation would be the biggest issue, and you could allow respending talents too if need be.)

 

2. There is a downside to "every stat is equally important." It actually REMOVES meaningful choice if you CAN'T make a sub-optimal choice. Having said that, there may be another way.

 

This isn't too far from what Obsidian wants, either, and what people in this thread are espousing:

 

If every stat is going to have both an offensive and defensive slant (let's say - not a bad idea on the face of it) it's vitally important that they work in DIFFERENT ways. For example:

 

STAT: Offense + Defense

MIG: +% damage and healing (raw increase in numbers) + Fortitude (poison & disease defenses)

CON: reduce armor speed penalties (increases effective dps) + %HP/Endurace

DEX: Increases ability speed (increases effective dps) + Reflex (AoE defenses)

PER: Increases Crit (spikey DPS increase) + Deflection (Physical Defenses)

INT: Increases interrupt, AoE, & Duration (DPS through 'alternate' means) + Will (debuff defenses)

RES: DR penetration + Increases concentration & DR

 

There could be some tweaks there, of course - for example I'd be wary of combining both Crit and Deflection together. That seems very strong - but you could spread the deflection and reflex over DEX and PER to make it a really tough choice between focusing on DEX, PER, or both. Also you could consider spreading the defenses out a bit (the design of defenses atm has them in 2 stats, whereas my design here has them only attached to one) but I don't really see a need for spreading them out necessarily.

 

Also, it would depend very much on numbers - it's important that each point in INT gives *about* the same amount of DPS as MIG over the long wrong. The devil is in the details: There will be fights where a character that focuses on INT won't be effective, and other fights where they will pwn. Ditto for defense - it's important that things like poison are as important as straight physical damage. It might be less common, perhaps, but very nasty when you come across it. I won't go into it any further, but I find it hard to balance tanks ... how do you balance the need to defend against everything without making a be-all-end-all stat? Change the definition of "tank" ? (e.g. The fighter is my front-line dude in straight sword&arrow fights, but if there's a bunch of AoE, then it'll be my archer who has the high defense attributes.)

 

Anyway, those suggestions are actually not too far from what we have now, and it's offered just as an idea because I like talking game theory

[Epsilon Rose]

There could be some tweaks there, of course - for example I'd be wary of combining both Crit and Deflection together. That seems very strong - but you could spread the deflection and reflex over DEX and PER to make it a really tough choice between focusing on DEX, PER, or both. Also you could consider spreading the defenses out a bit (the design of defenses atm has them in 2 stats, whereas my design here has them only attached to one) but I don't really see a need for spreading them out necessarily.

 

I don't think making it a choice between Per and Dex (in your system) would be a very good idea, because they already work together very well. Increasing your chance to hit and increasing the number of attacks you make both work together to increase the total number of crits you get. If you want to tie to stats together and make it a choice, I'd suggest using two stats that don't naturally go together (like per and int), otherwise people will want to take both anyways.

[Odd Hermit]

I think a very, very big part of the problem is that Might/ Dex/ Int directly improve most of your actions, while Con/Per/Res are mostly only useful while you're under attack.

 

Problem is, taking out targets faster, completing actions faster, and having large AoEs/longer CC durations all have more substantial and tangible benefits than being more durable when things go wrong - but things are more likely to go wrong in the first place if your damage output and CCs are weak. You can't really play an "outlast" game very well with most party compositions.

 

It almost feels like defenses should've been a separate system entirely - having to balance Might/Dex/Int on their own would be a more difficult ordeal than just dropping the others to max them.

[View619]

A couple comments I wanted to through in:

 

1. Obsidian COULD rework the stats. Rework, then add an NPC in Gilded Vale that let's you respend. People who want can go there and redesign their mains (and custom NPCs.) No big deal, I think (Itemisation would be the biggest issue, and you could allow respending talents too if need be.)

 

2. There is a downside to "every stat is equally important." It actually REMOVES meaningful choice if you CAN'T make a sub-optimal choice. Having said that, there may be another way.

 

This isn't too far from what Obsidian wants, either, and what people in this thread are espousing:

 

If every stat is going to have both an offensive and defensive slant (let's say - not a bad idea on the face of it) it's vitally important that they work in DIFFERENT ways. For example:

 

STAT: Offense + Defense

MIG: +% damage and healing (raw increase in numbers) + Fortitude (poison & disease defenses)

CON: reduce armor speed penalties (increases effective dps) + %HP/Endurace

DEX: Increases ability speed (increases effective dps) + Reflex (AoE defenses)

PER: Increases Crit (spikey DPS increase) + Deflection (Physical Defenses)

INT: Increases interrupt, AoE, & Duration (DPS through 'alternate' means) + Will (debuff defenses)

RES: DR penetration + Increases concentration & DR

 

There could be some tweaks there, of course - for example I'd be wary of combining both Crit and Deflection together. That seems very strong - but you could spread the deflection and reflex over DEX and PER to make it a really tough choice between focusing on DEX, PER, or both. Also you could consider spreading the defenses out a bit (the design of defenses atm has them in 2 stats, whereas my design here has them only attached to one) but I don't really see a need for spreading them out necessarily.

 

Also, it would depend very much on numbers - it's important that each point in INT gives *about* the same amount of DPS as MIG over the long wrong. The devil is in the details: There will be fights where a character that focuses on INT won't be effective, and other fights where they will pwn. Ditto for defense - it's important that things like poison are as important as straight physical damage. It might be less common, perhaps, but very nasty when you come across it. I won't go into it any further, but I find it hard to balance tanks ... how do you balance the need to defend against everything without making a be-all-end-all stat? Change the definition of "tank" ? (e.g. The fighter is my front-line dude in straight sword&arrow fights, but if there's a bunch of AoE, then it'll be my archer who has the high defense attributes.)

 

Anyway, those suggestions are actually not too far from what we have now, and it's offered just as an idea because I like talking game theory

 

I think this is the most reasonable suggestion regarding attribute tweaks. There would be modifications to the three weakest attributes without changing the function of the spread, the only major change would need to be con and dex IMO. Accuracy should not be tied to any stats, as that would be a no-brainer pump attribute.

 

Armour speed reduction (con) would need to be separate from general action speed (dex), keep interrupt on per (duration on int makes it useful for many classes already). No flat integer increases though, percentage works fine when combined with the classes (e.g Durance has high endurance\hp for a priest, but he's not going to have more than an above average fighter).

Edited March 30, 2015 by View619

[TT1]

After reading all this thread, I'm really frustrated at this game. This is a HUGE problem.

[Rjc]

Maybe instead of accuarcy, PER should have a Graze to Hit conversion chance. It would affect damage directly but it would not change your chance to miss. You could up this chance to up to 100% at the highest PER level and it would almost compete with MIG when it comes to damage (MIG still increases your crits while this only affects your grazes). Considering you split speed between CON and DEX, and that you can only really max 3 stats, and we end up with 4 possible max dps combos, all with different secondary bonuses depending on what you want your character apart from damage.

[Urthor]

The fact is this is a thread of people trying to alter a 6 attribute system.  At its core though, that's the issue itself.   

 

 

Fact is, the game should have been made with a 5 or 4 attribute system.  That's it.  

 

That's the fundamental issue with Pillars of Eternity, there's just too many attributes to represent 3 fundamental concepts, doing the highest DPS, havign the highest duration/AoE radius', and having the highest defence.  

[Odd Hermit]

The fact is this is a thread of people trying to alter a 6 attribute system.  At its core though, that's the issue itself.   

 

 

Fact is, the game should have been made with a 5 or 4 attribute system.  That's it.  

 

That's the fundamental issue with Pillars of Eternity, there's just too many attributes to represent 3 fundamental concepts, doing the highest DPS, havign the highest duration/AoE radius', and having the highest defence.  

 

 

I disagree. I think they're trying to fit too many things into a 6 attribute system and link them in fairly arbitrary words that have other meanings.

 

Perception, Resolve, Intellect shouldn't even be combat stats IMHO. They're too vague and it's hard to translate personality into combat style in such a rigid mathematical way. You can see Durance's high resolve in his personality, but it does little for him in combat from a practical standpoint. And does having a high number in resolve add anything to him as a character really though? No, absolutely not. Durance would feel the same to me with or without that number, he'd just be stronger in combat if those points were spent in intellect and might instead.

 

The only character these stats impact in dialogue is the PC. But they just limit our options in roleplaying a personality if we build for combat. I want my druid to excel at damage dealing in combat, so now I have to be imperceptive in conversations because perception does nothing for my damage output. It's just a frustrating limitation.

 

Plus, interrupts are too weak which is major issue when 1/3 of your attributes deal with them.

 

It would be too simple, easy, boring with just damage/ duration+AoE/ defense. The potential combinations would shrink dramatically.