Balance between classes

[PrimeJunta]

Gone through a few other classes in the BB. I think there's still some tuning required between them, because right now it seems to me that some are just objectively better than others in similar roles. For example:

 

Monk > Fighter 

 

The fighter's main attraction is the staying power and engagement ability, plus constant damage output. Additionally you can take Knockdown which is highly useful to get your comrades out of trouble by breaking engagement. And that's about it.

 

The monk, OTOH, has great constant damage output, and unlimited knockdowns which additionally send the victim flying away, and great spike damage, and great endurance (as long as you keep burning away those Wounds). Compared to the fighter it seems to me to be all upside with no downside, unless you count "high-maintenance" as a downside.

 

I really really dig the monk's specials, and would be bummed if they got nerfed (much). I think the fighter's specials need beefing up. A longer Knockdown duration would do much, and pumping some of the bonuses given by the modals might too. Might even add a few bonuses given by the unique fighter abilities, e.g. weapon specialization/mastery -- how about adding some DT bypass that stacks with the weapon, for example?

 

Other than this, I quite like the fighter as it is now. There's a lot of scope for fine-tuning the build in various directions, and a lot of abilities to choose from. I think this is mostly a matter of tuning the numbers until both feel roughly equally useful.

 

Druid > Wizard

 

The wizard's AoE damage spells are... unspectacular. The gishy ones work well enough for that, but at least my experience using them was that I was paying more attention to self-defense than hindering or damaging the enemy, and I was certainly way less effective with two wizards than with one wizard + one druid. Druids OTOH have really neat area debuffs, with some of them doing damage also. 

 

IMO the wizard (still) needs broader spell variety. In the IE games, that was the wizard's special strength actually -- they could do magically just about what any other class could do magically (except healing), if they had the right spells prepared. Right now most of the wizard's spells are either defensive self-buff (with a good deal of redundancy), AoE or multi-target damage in various shapes, and one or two extremely useful AoE debuffs. I would like to see some conjuration/summoning type spells (even at the risk of treading on the cipher's toes), and more "mage duel" type spells (cf. Spell Mantle, Spell Breach etc) at least, even at the risk of treading on the priest's toes.

 

Right now it feels like the wizard is a useful member of the team, but in something of a support role. I tried playing the BB with a wizard and using her to carry the fight; it did work, but I expended all of her and BB Wizard's spells before I made it to Kograk's cave. With a druid I breezed through the beetles and halfway through the spiders before I thought it was prudent to take a nap. So IMO the cost-benefit ratio of wizard spells is a little off too, at least if not used in combination with those great druid area debuffs which make them that much more effective.

 

So, of the caster classes, currently the druid, cipher, and chanter are all more interesting than the wizard. I would consider beefing up the wizard by adding a few spells that do other things than damage or self-buff. Also mmmmmaybe adding one or even two more casts per rest per level. Or, alternatively, beefing up the damage or accuracy of the spells.

 

(Also, Slicken needs to be nerfed IMO. The duration and area are fine, but it should not be an automatic knockdown for the duration; the victims should be able to get up and struggle out of the AoE.)

 

Rogue > Ranger

 

I already covered my problems with the Ranger in another post, but here's another view of it -- I find the Rogue to be much more engaging and effective in every way than the Ranger, yet both are intended to play the "hard hitter" role. Something needs to be done about the Ranger.

 

BTW I'm also starting to like the priest. It's not a lot like a D&D cleric/priest, but highly useful and there's surprising variety in the spells. Will roll my own next, to see what it's like to have two.

[Nakia]

I will be interested in your thoughts on the Priest.  I do not care for the BB priest but haven't created my own yet.  Was hoping to exchange the BBpriest this go round but due to the bug wasn't able to.

[Sensuki]

At many of the Monk character levels you literally cannot spend wounds fast enough because you do not have enough abilities to do so, particularly if you take Lesser Wounds. This is likely because of a number of factors - not having many actives to choose from at lower levels, abilities not costing enough Wound points, high incoming damage from everything.

 

Either way it needs a bit of tweaking.

[PrimeJunta]

That's fairly easily remedied by wearing some armor though.

[Sensuki]

Not really, and certainly not on Hard difficulty. A Regular Lion hits for 40 damage through 12 DT (Plate Armor), thats 4-5 Wounds just for a single hit. If you're fighting classes then it might do the trick unless you've been hit by a Rogue with Deep Wounds or a Ranger with Wounding Shot (DoTs are still pretty OP).

 

If you're taking that ability that uses 2 Wounds instead of one (which is either new to this build, or brought down from a higher level), then yeah, that's better at removing them. The ones that only cost one are not. Stunning Blows also doesn't cost wounds. I also don't believe you can keep spamming Swift Strikes over and over to remove Wounds, I'm not sure it refreshes every time you click it.

[PrimeJunta]

I'll take your word for it. I haven't been playing this build on Hard. It's challenging enough for me on Normal.

[Sensuki]

Hard in this build is pretty silly. The designers have gone and added more creatures to several encounters (which reduces the frame rate of the unoptimized game), while the party now starts at level 4 instead of 5, and has less effective weapons and abilities (tuned down because of the DR change). Creatures have had no balancing done at all basically, so they're way more nasty than they've ever been before.

 

Between the terrible performance and hitching and the general unfairness of the balancing, I am pretty much completely put off playing this build other than to investigate bugs. Least fun build since v257.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

Turn down difficulty to Normal maybe? As stated, I'm finding this build the most fun by a very wide margin. I've only played the "easy" builds on Hard though.

[Sensuki]

I'm not testing normal because I'm not going to play it. I provide input for Hard difficulty only and that's what I've always done. Hard difficulty is supposed to be the difficulty the game is designed around, and it is then tuned down for other difficulties. In lower difficulties I don't believe you get Adra Beetles or Elder Creatures.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

Fair enough. I change the difficulty to suit the level I want to get. With the difficulty swinging wildly between builds, I find it highly frustrating to do otherwise.

 

Just tried Hard and it is pretty brutal. Very hard to get anywhere without constant pausing. Those Adra Beetles are pretty nasty. I didn't find it overwhelming however, just not as much fun as Normal. From where I'm at Normal feels much like IWD on Core Rules, difficulty-wise.

[Luridis]

PrimeJunta,

 

Okay, first a disclaimer, I haven't played beta in several months.

 

About your comparison of Fighter vs Monk, is this only at one level? Is it at max level? The reason I ask is because they're likely shooting for overall balance, not equality at specific levels. That would be hugely difficult to do in any RPG, much less one with this many classes.

 

Edit: They could also be shooting for more DPS on the monk, but less tanky.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Luridis

[PrimeJunta]

@Luridis good point. The fighter's effectiveness is modified a lot by equipment since he gets those specialization/mastery feats. I just had one with the right specializations and an Exceptional estoc, which did turn him into a bit of a deathlord -- I suspect the monk would be lagging.

 

Consider that objection withdrawn, for now.

[Luridis]

@Luridis good point. The fighter's effectiveness is modified a lot by equipment since he gets those specialization/mastery feats. I just had one with the right specializations and an Exceptional estoc, which did turn him into a bit of a deathlord -- I suspect the monk would be lagging.

 

Consider that objection withdrawn, for now.

 

Yep, and I even forgot to take equipment into consideration. I've seen vids of developers doing balance adjustments and they use huge spreadsheets with lots of formula calculating results across levels, equipment and even encounter types. And, really, I think max level is where you'll see the greatest evening out.

[PrimeJunta]

I will be interested in your thoughts on the Priest.  I do not care for the BB priest but haven't created my own yet.  Was hoping to exchange the BBpriest this go round but due to the bug wasn't able to.

 

Tried rolling my own. It was... promising but not conclusive. I think a party with two priests + two fighters + one rogue + one druid would be a bit of a steamroller. Druid for area debuffs, the two priests layering buffs, and the buffed fighters + rogue making mincemeat of the debuffed enemies. 

 

With the BB party composition, two priests is too much though. I'll try a second time later, hiring another Adventurer's Hall fighter to get close to that composition. The wizard isn't as good at area debuffs as the druid, but he does have Slicken, so...