Knockdown

[Guest 4ward]

viewing the videos showing combat i can’t help but think that knockdowns kind of look cheap. Instead of having them as a skill and tactical measure i’d rather have them as an addition to a critical hit. Just a thought, mind you.

[Formal Foreign Forum Fool]

Or maybe as a specialization.  For example you get certain effects with criticals depending on what type you're using.  For example maces/hammers would include the knock back effect.

[Guest 4ward]

thank you for your reply. It’s an interesting idea i think, perhaps if it also went with a small weapon speed/action speed tradeoff.

 

I thought about knockback/knockdown because i think (just my assumption of course) that Josh Sawyer wanted to stress melee combat more than it was in the IE games in terms of using abilities. The engagement system with the AoO supports this notion i think. Yet, i think this leads to more pausing considering there’s also the ranged classes abilities. As it is though, from what i’ve seen so far the combat is pretty static in PoE and that’s why i would like to have the AoO / engagement system removed which would lead to movement being a tactical choice again. That would lead to a little bit more pausing but if the amount of active per-encounter abilities for melee would be reduced (likewise for the enemies) or some abilities like knockdown made passive that i think would counter this. Melee active input would go down a little bit, but i think melee classes would still be very exciting to play (as much as the ranged classes). At any rate, i wouldn't like it if my melee chars would be knocked down more often than not by enemies in melee.

[Cubiq]

From my experience the tank is already very useless on the offensive since they usually keep getting interrupted by 2-4 people around him.

If they kept getting knocked down as well that i think it would feel even worse.

 

Though i'm not sure what you mean by the knockdown being cheap.

If it's cheap then wouldn't you want it to occur less rather than more?

[Guest 4ward]

yes, i'd like it to occur less. I think that knockdown gives an unfair advantage if it’s an active ability. Basically the first thing the fighter would do is use it right away at the beginning to knock the enemy down then whack at the enemy, then the enemy gets up then gets knocked down again and so on and forth. The latest video from twitch shows Josh telling the player (Jesse Cox) to use knockdown at the first moments as well. The same goes if enemy would that, i wouldn’t like it happening to me either. Although since i don’t play the beta i don’t know if enemies have the knockdown ability, i’m just saying that in case they can use it as well.

 

So I was thinking making knockdown occur less often. I think fighters have it 2x per encounter as active ability (at least i think the female char from the twitch video had as much and she was lvl 1 i think) and probably that number goes up on higher levels. I don’t know how often critical hits occur in PoE now, but if it’d be a passive ability that you’d get only e.g. by choosing it as a talent and if it occurred on critical hits only or occurred on 30% (on lvl1 for example) up to 80% (on high levels) on critical then that i think would reduce knockdown from happening as often as now and would not be a ‘cheap’ tactical melee thing. I can see how that's a problem for a fighter who is engaged against 4 in melee, but without the engagement system that's not to happen i guess (at least not for a long period).

[Cubiq]

Oh i misunderstood then.

I thought you wanted it to occur more.

If your defense is equal to the enemies attack they get a 5% chance to critically hit you.

I can't really crunch the numbers since i would need to count how many crits i would take for the duration of several fights.

It's hard to count because you can get debuffed (ironically by a knockdown) which can increase the chance of them scoring a crit so the numbers could be off.

But you're right. The knockdown and several other abilities are currently a no-brainer.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Cubiq

[Guest 4ward]

just as a follow-up i’d like to throw out a small idea for melee system which perhaps could support different playstyles in PoE. If the game introduced a talent for disengaging, let’s call it the ‘Disengagement’ talent and tie it to a passive skill that was before an active skill for disengaging both playstyles would be in the game like this:

• Movement playstyle: this is what people who prefer movement to be a tactical option like in BG/IWD would go for: they take the a.m. ‘Disengagement’ talent, then depending on their class take a passive skill (that has an active equivalent skill for the other playstyle) like e.g. for the fighter ‘passive knockdown’ skill. That passive version would e.g. occur on critical hit like in the a.m. post. The player can only choose the a.m. ‘Disengagement’ talent with this passive skill but he cannot choose the active version of that skill (here knockdown) anymore. The active knockdown would be greyed out so you can’t choose anymore for the fighter. The ‘Disengagment’ talent would improve with levelling up. At first level it would either e.g. slow you  down a little bit or you would get just a very small hp deduction if you disengaged but you would break free and re-engagement would not occur. This talent would grow in power and very soon, e.g. on level 3 you could break up melee engagement with no consequence at all. At even higher levels you could break free from multiple enemies with no consequences. As a trade-off the fighter in this example would not get the active knockdown abilities but on the other hand he could move more freely.
• The sticky AoO playstyle: this would be the status quo. The player wouldn’t choose the ‘Disengagement’ talent but instead the active ability ‘Knockdown’ for the fighter as it is now in the game. He wouldn’t get the ‘Disengagement’ talent and the passive version of the ability.

Both playstyles could then be mixed for the different classes so for the rogue the player could choose the other way round if he wanted. The active / passive skill would then be ‘crippling strike’ I guess ?? So, I just wanted to throw this suggestion as a basic idea, perhaps balancing it would be possible so that no playstyle is favored but both are possible. Basically, the passive skill versions would I think have to occur in battle very rarely.