Why not allow instant death of sleeping/unconscious targets?

[eschaton]

This is a spinoff of a tangent I went on in the grind thread.

 

I remember a moment playing Fallout: New Vegas which totally broke immersion.  I was supposed to take out a group which was initially not hostile.  Two members were sleeping in a tent.  I crouched down in the tent, snuck up, shot one point blank in the head multiple times - and they did not die.  Mostly I missed.  Even after trying again and again multiple times, the same thing happened.

 

I realize this was because in game mechanics an attack was an attack, and I shouldn't have been able to pull that off unless I was higher level.  But in reality, the idea that a stealthed person cannot kill a stationary target with a lethal weapon was just so ridiculous it made the game lose the fun aspect for me.  

 

Which leads me to wonder - could we just insta-kill someone who is sleeping or unconscious.  The argument could be made this would wreck the balance of the game.  However, provided you make it difficult to get to most high-level sleeping targets (hella locks on doors, stealth requirements), and post-assassination consequences (high likelihood guards will be alerted) I don't see how it would be game breaking.  

Edited June 13, 2013 by eschaton

[Gfted1]

I think its already planned to be in the game. Iirc, one of the devs said that enemies can perform a coup de gras on any unconscious party members so perhaps we can do the same? Im not sure of this though.

 

Also, as you probably already know, there is only a 5% of missing anyway regardless of level differences so you probably wont get frustrated by that.

[Prometheus]

Also, as you probably already know, there is only a 5% of missing anyway regardless of level differences so you probably wont get frustrated by that.

I thought if your accuracy is lower than the targets defence you will loose more often. And the defence and accuracy will raise if you level up. see quotes below:

 

A number between 1 and 100 is generated to determine the attack rules. If the Accuracy and target defense are the same value, these are how the results break down:

• 01-05 = Miss
• 06-50 = Graze
• 51-95 = Hit
• 96-100 = Critical Hit

A Hit is the standard damage and duration effects, a Graze is 50% minimum damage or duration, a Critical Hit is 150% maximum damage or duration, and a Miss has no effect. In a balanced Attack and defense scenario, the majority of attacks wind up being Hits or Grazes. If the Accuracy and defense values are out of balance, the windows for each result shift accordingly, while always allowing for the possibility of a Graze or a Hit at the extreme ends of the spectrum.

 

from SA forums:

As with Accuracy, defenses increase as you gain levels. On top of all this, both Accuracy and defenses can be boosted with Abilities, Talents (feats), spells, items, etc.

[Gfted1]

I stand corrected.

 

So Accuracy can be presumed to be the equivalent of "+ to hit" and Defense would be equivalent to armor class? The Accuracy increase I suppose I can hand wave and say sure, you should be more accurate as you level up (gain skill in battle) but how to explain having better defense due to level up? Is my plate armor better now that Im level 10 as opposed to level 9? Do you have any other links showing details to this system?

[Jajo]

I'm all for it. They'll just have to take care when designing encounters to put some guards and wards or something like that in enough of them, to not trivialize the content. Having a careless group here and there, that can slowly be killed in this manner, would give it even more depth and replay value.

 

We don't know much about spells, so I'm going to borrow from D&D: what about paralyzed/held monsters? Spells that could hold multiple opponents would become really powerful this way.

[Prometheus]

I stand corrected.

 

So Accuracy can be presumed to be the equivalent of "+ to hit" and Defense would be equivalent to armor class? The Accuracy increase I suppose I can hand wave and say sure, you should be more accurate as you level up (gain skill in battle) but how to explain having better defense due to level up? Is my plate armor better now that Im level 10 as opposed to level 9? Do you have any other links showing details to this system?

No defenses are not influenced by armor. armor will influence the DT and will reduce the damage I think after you did miss/hit etc. Shields and some weapons will influence deflection (defence against phisical attacks) . a bit more information on the wiki. I think you could compare defenses with saving throws in D&D but you will have to roll against one of them for all attacks.

quote from SA forums:

 

They're defenses, more like 4E, where the attacker is always trying to meet or exceed the target number. I.e., the defender does not roll to defend, the attacker always rolls to hit, regardless of what form the attack takes. "Def" is "Deflection", used to oppose targeted physical attacks that can be blocked.

[Lephys]

Yeah, I can't remember where, but Josh mentioned that there are 4 (thus far) different types of defense, basically. Armor contributes, with deflection, I think. I think skills like Parry also work in there, though. Essentially, your defense is supposed to be your aggregate ability to mitigate hits (grazes) and/or nullify them alltogether. But, it's all represented at the same time. I think. So, your ability to deflect an attack with your weapon AND the deflection capability of your breastplate both work together in the same "did this thing hit you, and, if so, how well?" equation.

 

So, basically, if you're a BAMF at active deflection, and you're wearing full plate, and someone who's even still decently skilled at attacking techniques/accuracy strikes at you, their full miss range is going to be higher (maybe 1-10, or 1-15, even), and their Critical Hit range is going to shrink (possibly go away). You're basically pushing the range boundaries against either the ceiling (100) or the floor (1).

 

I really wish I could find that post from Josh... I think it was in an update? All I can remember is that Deflection was for physical attacks, Evasion (or some form of Dodge) was for area effects, and there was another for Magic (basically resistance). I cannot even remember what the 4th was.

 

This was a little while back, too, so things might have changed and we simply don't know about the changes yet.

 

EDIT: Ahhh, found it. Update #39:

 

Attack Resolution

I've talked about this a bunch on the forums, but not in an update. All attacks in Project Eternity compare the attacker's Accuracy value to one of four defenses: Deflection (direct melee and ranged attacks), Fortitude (body system attacks like poison and disease), Reflexes (area of effect damage attacks), and Willpower (mental attacks).

So, I was actually wrong about "evasion," as it is called "reflexes," and I was also wrong about there being a magic-only defense rating.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Lephys

[JR.9613]

While instant death for situations like these would definitely add to the immersion and realism, I feel like any situation where this would be usable would  be restricted to scripted events or, as Jajo said, would "trivialize the content" if an abundance of spells or skills were available that incapacitate an enemy making them vulnerable to instant death. I think both should be avoided equally.

 

There is more in the spoiler, but I use a quest from BG2 as an example and I would rather be polite and not give anything away, no matter how small it might seem.

 

 

A good example of a scripted event that I can think of is the Fighter Stronghold Quest in BG2 where you use the dog stew to lure the Umber Hulks away from the room so your party may pass. I think lures like this would have been useful and interesting as part of the whole game instead of one quest. I would love it if "trash" items throughout the world could actually be used for something, and there are many ways that things like this could be implemented (aside from instant death as suggested here).

 

Edited June 13, 2013 by JR.9613