Britain's youngest hired killer

[Walsingham]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/cri...t-killings.html

 

Any guesses on how much it cost to hire him?

[Guest Slinky]

It's always heartwarming to hear about kids who are willing to help out for such a small fee. Such a helpful boy!

 

Ps. I hope the UK version of prison for life means just that.

[Orogun01]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/cri...t-killings.html

 

Any guesses on how much it cost to hire him?

15 is an adult on many countries, but anyways good read if you need another reason to hate the turks. I'm now deciding whether to bomb them or not based on the hotness of their women.

[Humodour]

**** like this isn't even remotely interesting.

 

Really actually irks me how we obsess over ****ed up things like this and relentlessly fixate on them in the media. It sure as hell isn't a healthy thing to do from the perspective of encouraging other idiots.

[Walsingham]

By 'not remotely interesting' I presume you mean 'detracts from your rose tinted view of society'?

[Humodour]

By 'not remotely interesting' I presume you mean 'detracts from your rose tinted view of society'?

 

No. If I meant that, I would have said that, now wouldn't I?

 

I did say some other things though. You mysteriously didn't quote them.

[Walsingham]

By implication you are saying that this kind of thing never really happens?

 

Actually, the Triads were using 14-15 year olds to carry out attacks on premises in the 90s because they could easily avoid police countermeasures.

 

Moreover, the startling thing here is that it exposes a rich vein of gang culture which has been only getting worse in the UK for the last twenty years. I think it's good to stare hard at the consequences of abandoning people to sinks, without either positive or negative support /constraint.

 

What's your point?

[Orogun01]

By implication you are saying that this kind of thing never really happens?

 

Actually, the Triads were using 14-15 year olds to carry out attacks on premises in the 90s because they could easily avoid police countermeasures.

 

Moreover, the startling thing here is that it exposes a rich vein of gang culture which has been only getting worse in the UK for the last twenty years. I think it's good to stare hard at the consequences of abandoning people to sinks, without either positive or negative support /constraint.

 

What's your point?

More moreover the use of children by criminal organizations dates to the turn of century (not this one, the previous one) amazingly enough the reason have stayed the same, society tends to be more lenient on children and in modern society you have the dual benefit of an able young body (14-18) that it's still considered; legally, a minor. Plus they are very impressionable and easy to manipulate.

 

I'm a little bewildered by this thread; maybe because of the country difference, but this has been a problem for some time now. Specially since a lot of the gang violence related crimes are committed by youth.

[Walsingham]

I should apologise for my tone. I didn't mean to sound so snotty just now. But it's a little galling to have you (Krez) say it's an over-reaction.

 

1. Britain may not be so badly off with crime

 

2. There are places which have a very VERY bad time with crime

 

3. Assuming it's not magical elves that stop us from sliding into worse crime then it's probably a function of factors and trends.

 

4. I think it makes sense to try and identify when trends and factors are at work moving us towards worse crime and do something about it.

 

5 [supplemental] I just realised I may be contradicting myself in the other thread about the TSA and fascism.

[Orogun01]

4. I think it makes sense to try and identify when trends and factors are at work moving us towards worse crime and do something about it.

I not 100% informed of the situation in Britain, but I'm knowledgeable of large migrations of Turks into the country. A rise in organized crime seems to be an unwanted consequence of a large exodus, you saw it all throughout American history.

I would think that programs that help immigrants get a foothold in society, along with housing deliberately planned to keep them away from high crime areas would help.

 

I would very much like to hear your notions about the overall situation in the UK since I may be able to offer a better informed opinion afterwards.

[Walsingham]

I would very much like to hear your notions about the overall situation in the UK since I may be able to offer a better informed opinion afterwards.

 

ROFL. Yes. Very discretely put. I think.

 

What specifically? I assume you don't just want a general country brief.

[Orogun01]

I would very much like to hear your notions about the overall situation in the UK since I may be able to offer a better informed opinion afterwards.

 

ROFL. Yes. Very discretely put. I think.

 

What specifically? I assume you don't just want a general country brief.

Since we have been talking about gang culture on the isles, how about the circumstances surrounding it. We have romanticized our organized crime on the states with all the Hollywood exposure, but aside from neo-fascists punk rockers gangs and a ****ney loan shark I haven't seen that much crime on media. At least not on this side of the ocean, so I would really like to know.

[Walsingham]

Well, very briefly I think gangs depend on a couple of things:

 

1. Lack of economic options

2. Individuals with a weak personal identity, few skills, few brains (for want of a better word); compounding point 1

3. Weak oversight, typically in schools and housing areas with a lot of people and no will to tackle the problem

4. A culture of gang membership, inculcated through social isolation or simply hollywood dreaming (immigrant groups and individuals labouring under point 2)

 

But this is very distinct from organised crime. Organised crime is a system in itself and each archetype has its own mechanisms for propagating and maintaining itself. These usually vary depending on ethnicity and history.

 

The UK is not currently suffering what could be regarded as a serious problem with either. The justice system is relatively good compared with many other European partners, and we have strong and effective courts and prisons (at the primary level). Really I think the main thing keeping either involved in the UK is the money available from dealing in illicit narcotics.

 

The narcotics trade is dominated, here as elsewhere, by population centres and transport links. London is without doubt a focus for all kinds of activity. Although this is not just drugs, but human trafficking, extortion, prostitution and so forth. In terms of organised violence Manchester is probably the second city. But any port or port facility is important to them.

 

I think that gangs are probably going to be the biggest problem we face in the UK in the coming years. The economy is poor, we have large amounts of immigration, a failing education system, and a complete lack of urgency by responsible bodies. More importantly, the overall outlook is going to be far worse in certain areas. this will compound a lack of wilingness on the part of government.

 

Organised crime is likely to continue being a problem, but is unlikely to develop more fully unless and until they achieve some sort of engagement with politicians. It is hard to envisage such a nexus in the UK, since traditional routes to political power are absent. You aren't going to see org. crime strike breaking or mobilising a voting bloc, or violently suppressing a particular party. However, with more and more money transferring into the black market through drugs I can see an increasing risk of politicians simply selling themselves for cash. The main difficulty with that happening is that we have very strong and independent police and security services. So politcians can't do a great deal to protect any sponsor. Although it is possible that instead we will see a tendency for corruption to extend to local government contracting, as indeed has already been alleged in many cases.

 

As an aside, I would say the biggest problem we have in the UK at the moment in tackling organised crime is witness intimidation. we have very poor protection for giving evidence, and a great many cases are lost before or during trial due to witnesses retracting statements or disappearing. This should be a prioirty for action, but as I have already said, most political parties are firmly buried headfirst in sand on this.

[Orogun01]

Well most of the organized crime families began as gangs of immigrants and I think you may be right, from what you describe they could be a rise in gang trouble. Which if not properly addressed could turn into organized crime. A lot of gangs that have begun without political support eventually become large enough to be considered organized crime (e.g. Crips and Bloods), although they have not reached the same heights of power as those who do. The power of demographics, if the drug/human trade, extortion and prostitution become lucrative it may prove an attractive options to disenchanted immigrants and those simply driven to the extreme.

 

I would say that input from organizations in the States may help, both the DEA and FBI have a long history of fighting organized crime. Nevermind that they were formed practically for that purpose. Even though the situation may not be the same their experiences may help in responding appropriately.

Now of only you could get governments to listen to reason.

[Walsingham]

I have to disagree about your theory of how organised crime arises. By which I mean and distinguish between a gang which attempts to vertically integrate its supply chain, and a single family who attempt to diversify their income using violence.

 

The distinction in my mind, however incorrect, is that organised crime must constitute some formal code and structure. The above tends to be brain guy, plus enforcer, plus a dozen halfwits. That's not the same thing as you have with say the 14k Triad or 'Ndrangheta.

[Orogun01]

I have to disagree about your theory of how organised crime arises. By which I mean and distinguish between a gang which attempts to vertically integrate its supply chain, and a single family who attempt to diversify their income using violence.

 

The distinction in my mind, however incorrect, is that organised crime must constitute some formal code and structure. The above tends to be brain guy, plus enforcer, plus a dozen halfwits. That's not the same thing as you have with say the 14k Triad or 'Ndrangheta.

I understand your point allow me to contest it by saying that a lot of these gangs have reached levels of organization that go outside of their state. Their chain command's structure code of conduct reflects that, if you need a good example look at the Latin Kings.

Irish gangs in new york later became the Irish mob, and heavy migration was a mitigating factor. Once a gang grows larger in power and numbers it begins to change structure, to try and maintain control over each chapter.

 

Whilst I don't know what you mean by diversify; I have a passing notion. These criminal groups deal mostly on a main product (drugs mostly) but also deal in human trade and other venues.

[Walsingham]

When I was actively into this we're talking mid '90s so at that time you didn't really see the sort of behaviour from what you might call 'meta-gangs' like the Crips, or the resurgent Hell's Angels (types). So you may well know a lot more about them than I do.

 

If this is the case, care to share?

[Orogun01]

When I was actively into this we're talking mid '90s so at that time you didn't really see the sort of behaviour from what you might call 'meta-gangs' like the Crips, or the resurgent Hell's Angels (types). So you may well know a lot more about them than I do.

 

If this is the case, care to share?

 

There's been a few shows on the tv, dealing specifically with the subject. The rest I know from research and a few elements from the underworld with who I associate regularly (regularly is such a strong word though)

 

Most of the high activity gangs right now are those vying for control over the I-95 highway, and control over the influx of drugs over the country. Most gangs right now have the model of an enterprising company, competition is absorbed or eliminated. They have highly ritualized codes of conducts and behavior, such as the famed blood in blood out. Although some of them seem to take a family friendly stance, making a family is one of the acceptable ways to leave the gang.

 

The other hotspot for gang activity is the area of Florida and their connection with the I-95 and the ports. I know that a lot of chapters from the major players are located here and there were the Colombian organized crime, which were specially vicious.

 

I'll see if I can find you some links, here is something to get you started

http://prisonoffenders.com/latin_kings.html

[Walsingham]

Hah! interesting thought: they should really try to retain some of their family oriented members. Otherwise you've got a skills bleed.

 

Unless... now I think about it... family oriented members may also begin to express divided loyalties so it could be a means of protecting the organisation against people turning 'snitch'.

 

EDIT: That link is a little worrying in some of its language, concerning aryan gangs. http://prisonoffenders.com/aryan_circle.html

Edited June 3, 2011 by Walsingham

[Orogun01]

Hah! interesting thought: they should really try to retain some of their family oriented members. Otherwise you've got a skills bleed.

 

Unless... now I think about it... family oriented members may also begin to express divided loyalties so it could be a means of protecting the organisation against people turning 'snitch'.

 

EDIT: That link is a little worrying in some of its language, concerning aryan gangs. http://prisonoffenders.com/aryan_circle.html

The reasoning behind it is that those gangs try to reach the communities, build a support base for their operations. Plus there it's the fact that there is no other way to really leave the gang.

 

Although the most likely reason for the expansion of gangs on the States its the size of the country and the sheer amount of drugs it consumes. Speaking of which do you happen to know which are the illicit drugs most consumed in the UK? I'm going to go on a limb and say MDMA.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Orogun01

[Walsingham]

ROFL. *ow*

 

I sincerely doubt there's that much ecstacy being taken! Not to romanticise it, but I'd swap our heroin users for MDMA users any day!

 

Hard to say, of course. You might possibly see more doses being taken, but in terms of dollar volume or addiction I'd bet good money on cocaine or heroin. These days maybe even ketamine would pip it.

[Orogun01]

ROFL. *ow*

 

I sincerely doubt there's that much ecstacy being taken! Not to romanticise it, but I'd swap our heroin users for MDMA users any day!

 

Hard to say, of course. You might possibly see more doses being taken, but in terms of dollar volume or addiction I'd bet good money on cocaine or heroin. These days maybe even ketamine would pip it.

So it's fair to say that the biggest UK consumer isn't the party scene; unless you guys have a real hardcore party scene. Anyways that's probably where operations should begin, the consumer. Interestingly enough they have been putting a marathon of Gangland on the telly. Very appropriate.