Moral, Changeable world

[bronzepoem]

As we know, RPG is like novel, movie and TV serial in some perspectives. Which unique feature of RPG is Role-playing. It means players could join the game world themself, could become one character of the game story. Players could take part in the story, they could change the story and create a unique story themself. That's the quintessence of role-playing game. When we play a RPG, we could feel that: it's me, it's me who travel and adventure in the new world, not Hamlet, Jon Snow or someone else. That's the greatest fun of RPG.

Today, the apporch to give players role-playing feel is CHOICE. As we know we can't create a new plot in the game limited by PC technology. So smart game designers set several behavior choices when we need to behavior. Also, they need to design corresponding concequences. If several choice option lead to same concequence, the choice is false. The C&C is a common sense in RPG design.

Next, let's discuss about moral system in RPG. Moral is an important part of role-playing. I have read an article writed by a Chinese hardcore RPG player. It's a very long article. A main question is what can be used to judge people's moral, motivation or consequences? Generally speaking，Law is the external regulation to formula people's behavior. Moral is an intrinsic regulation to formula people's ideology. So motion is a better criterion to judge people's moral.

But as a game designer, you can't see players' thinking. Sometimes they choose to help an old woman for compassion. Sometimes they do this just for the desire to 10 experience points. So it's silly to set a visual moral point. It will make RPG become a mathematics game. Players know themself much clearly. They do not need the game tell them that they are good guys or bad guys. In fact game designers are the players in the same game too. They are playing the roles of all the NPCs in the game. So do not become a moral justicer to judge players. The best way is just giving players enough concequences and to do a good job of acting NPCs. let players know what will happen after their behavior. Let them judge the moral points in their heart themselves.

But the concequences shouldn't be too directly. If the concequences are just golds, weapons or experience points, player won't take enough thinking when they choose. It could influence NPCs' behavior and attitude, or influence the the story line, even will change a city's furture or the total result of the game. In fallout 2, if we ask the child who steal our car, we can get information and get back the car as well. But the child will be killed by hooligans. Second day we only could see a blotch of blood beside road.It won't lead to any direact lose to players. But it give us a great moral convulsion. For this I crashed into gas station and gave every hooligan one cassette of bullets. This is a talent design and a good concequence. Also when we play fallout, even a very littile behavior could change the world. When we know a condom will change the furture of Den,when we know the detail of repairing nuclear power plant will change the furture of Lizards town, the choice become most funny thing in RPG. After finish the game, there are 39 different ending waiting for us. We will answer for all the behavior we have done.This is the best and most compellent moral judgement.

In the other hand, in the bottom of heart everyone want to bacome a VIP in their life. Everyone want to change the world as their idea. The most heroism adventure is CHANGING WORLD. Regrettably we couldn't see such great design after fallout 2. There are some precious RPG heritage shouldn't be forgotten. Maybe we could have a new amazing adventure and change world in AP again. Best wish.

Edited April 22, 2008 by bronzepoem

[mkreku]

In the other hand, in the bottom of heart everyone want to bacome a VIP in their life. Everyone want to change the world as their idea. The most heroism adventure is CHANGING WORLD.

I don't agree with this. I am sick and tired of games that are all about ME being THE CHOSEN ONE and I am the ONLY ONE WHO CAN SAVE THE WORLD, NO.. THE UNIVERSE!!1! And everyone else, no matter how powerful (at least when spoken of) are just marionettes that don't do **** unless I tell them to.

 

One of my favourite games of all time is called Gothic. It starts with you being held prisoner in front of a king. He then sentences you to a life in prison and you're tossed down a cliff onto this prison island. When the game starts, you don't know who you are, you don't know what you did, you don't know what to do now.. you don't even know your own name! And the very first thing that happens when you get on your feet is that you get your ass beaten by a gang of thugs!

 

That's the perfect start of an adventure for me! All I know is that I want to get off the island (prison) and find out what I did wrong.. and perhaps beat up the king while I'm at it. No saving ANYONE, nothing about being THE CHOSEN ONE, noone talking about SAVING THE WORLD. You're on your own and it's up to you to make the best of the situation.

 

I love playing the role of the common dude up against insurmountable odds, but please keep the story more personal than "saving the world" for the billionth time.

[Tigranes]

Agree with mkreku that sometimes, a variation from 'save ze world' would be welcome.. but otherwise, agreed with bronzepoem.

 

Although, seeing as AP has our man as an established agent, a 'special' agent at that, we probably are going to see some special treatment and kow-towing.

[bronzepoem]

Yes, I agree with you guys. But there are some difference between "saving the world" and "changing the world as personal idea".

For example, push the world into a worse hell.

You see, in gothic you begin as a humble prisoner. But at last, you own your life.

Maybe this sentence could deliver my opinion better: In the bottom of heart, everyone want to be the owner of their life.

Edited April 23, 2008 by bronzepoem

[bronzepoem]

I have to add some words to make my opinion clearly.

The most heroism adventure is CHANGING WORLD BY OUR OWN MIND, not doing things designers want us to do.

[bronzepoem]

Oh,it seems you guys are not interesting in the topic, I'm really sad as a melon.

[Tigranes]

There's not much info to go around, so sometimes the forums can be slow. Don't worry, it's pretty random how that goes.

 

It's bloody 3am and I've written 2,000 words in a maddening rush and I've approved the poster for citywide distribution for our fair and as someone not very fond of alcohol this particular Martini turned out rather cleaning-fluidish, so I'm going to go sleep, but lets throw this one out there:

 

I think bronzepoem's best point is that players are very canny, and although devs in the last few years though putting tangible, immediate consequences like xp or gold for your actions is important to make the players feel like choice matters, it ended up becoming farcical and exploited - and it just contributed to the munchkin numbers-game. He is absolutely right that consequences should not be consequences for the meta-character, for the game, for the stats; it should be choices in the game world = consequences to the game world. Although big consequences to the game world often has big consequences to your stats/loot, so it is hard to distinguish like that in practice. But I think if you make the game-world consequences big enough, and well-presented enough (i.e. you decide to extort a shopkeeper; due to the shock, injury or extortion he has to close shop. Not only does htis mean closed doors and inconvenience for you, other shopkeepers are pissed off at you, or just talk about how it's a pity that has happened; passers-by gather in front in curiosity; you run into that shopkeeper somewhere else drinking away his sorrows; etc. These kind of consequences become delightful rewards in and of themselves no matter what path you take, and if the player is more eager to see that kind of thing than consider the extra 50 gold, then you've succeeded.) Of course, that's a lot more work.

 

Why did I write so much!? It's a ramble, too. Sorry. Will come back to this in the morning. Gah.

[bronzepoem]

There's not much info to go around, so sometimes the forums can be slow. Don't worry, it's pretty random how that goes.

 

It's bloody 3am and I've written 2,000 words in a maddening rush and I've approved the poster for citywide distribution for our fair and as someone not very fond of alcohol this particular Martini turned out rather cleaning-fluidish, so I'm going to go sleep, but lets throw this one out there:

 

I think bronzepoem's best point is that players are very canny, and although devs in the last few years though putting tangible, immediate consequences like xp or gold for your actions is important to make the players feel like choice matters, it ended up becoming farcical and exploited - and it just contributed to the munchkin numbers-game. He is absolutely right that consequences should not be consequences for the meta-character, for the game, for the stats; it should be choices in the game world = consequences to the game world. Although big consequences to the game world often has big consequences to your stats/loot, so it is hard to distinguish like that in practice. But I think if you make the game-world consequences big enough, and well-presented enough (i.e. you decide to extort a shopkeeper; due to the shock, injury or extortion he has to close shop. Not only does htis mean closed doors and inconvenience for you, other shopkeepers are pissed off at you, or just talk about how it's a pity that has happened; passers-by gather in front in curiosity; you run into that shopkeeper somewhere else drinking away his sorrows; etc. These kind of consequences become delightful rewards in and of themselves no matter what path you take, and if the player is more eager to see that kind of thing than consider the extra 50 gold, then you've succeeded.) Of course, that's a lot more work.

 

Why did I write so much!? It's a ramble, too. Sorry. Will come back to this in the morning. Gah.

 

Haha, Martini? Although I can't understand what have you done(there are too many different words) But it seems you have a good writing state after drinking~

 

Yes, various consequences is very funny thing. It make NPCs lifelike and make the game world much more creditable.

every RPG player will glad to see these two feature.

In the other hand, if there aren

[Master Assassin]

Save the World works for me...its not likely I'll be able to do so IRL so doing it in a game is much to my taste. I can't speak for everyone but for myself, I like to think I make a difference by my actions, the things I do, how I carry myself, how I treat others, but- no one is going to approach me for a clandestine op, train me and let me loose in hostile territory.

 

I'm not sure I'd want that, at this stage of my life- so I look for games that allow me the ability to live 'vicariously' through the 'life' of a video game hero. Just my $.02, for what its worth.