Explain the plot, please!

[Petra]

1. Why doesn't the exile die when Kreia dies?

 

Many times in the game "lethal bond" was stressed. At one moment Kreia even threatened that if the exile doesn't come to Malachor V, she'll murder herself, and then the exile would also die. So the exile came...

But strangely, when Kreia and the exile fight, they aren't thinking of mutual death at all. The exile never asks what will happen, Kreia never mentions it, too. And in the end, the exile survives Kreia's death.

 

But that's ridiculous, they never severed that bond! What did I miss, what let her survive?

 

 

2. What did Bao-Dur create that he blamed himself for so much, was it the Mass-Shadow Generator?

I couldn't figure that out from dialogues, he just acknowledges that he created something terrible that changed the planet.

 

 

3. What was the Mass-Shadow generator and what did it do, how did it manage to make the planet "dark"?

I couldn't figure that out from dialogues, too.

 

 

4. Why did Kreia want the death of the force?

I thought that perhaps she was alike Nihilus and just wanted to devour all the force, but maybe I'm wrong...

 

5. What exactly happened on Malachor V that made the exile "the wound in the force"?

 

 

 

P.S.

KOTOR 2 is really better than KOTOR1... The characters are more real and alive, they're thought out deeply, especially Kreia. The plot is "mature" if you can call it like that. Probably the game characters or its plot wouldn't appeal to some, dependant on their age . The plot is so exciting... but so vague at some points, as if whole chunks of it were missing. I hope that it's just me.

[Gorth]

1. Why doesn't the exile die when Kreia dies?

 

Many times in the game "lethal bond" was stressed. At one moment Kreia even threatened that if the exile doesn't come to Malachor V, she'll murder herself, and then the exile would also die. So the exile came...

But strangely, when Kreia and the exile fight, they aren't thinking of mutual death at all. The exile never asks what will happen, Kreia never mentions it, too. And in the end, the exile survives Kreia's death.

 

But that's ridiculous, they never severed that bond! What did I miss, what let her survive?

You only have Kreia's word for it (and the exiles speculations on the nature of the bond), that it could be lethal. She is a manipulative old girl

 

2. What did Bao-Dur create that he blamed himself for so much, was it the Mass-Shadow Generator?

I couldn't figure that out from dialogues, he just acknowledges that he created something terrible that changed the planet.

As far as can be determined from the game, yes. He constructed it. The exile was his commanding officer (Yes, general) during that battle.

 

3. What was the Mass-Shadow generator and what did it do, how did it manage to make the planet "dark"?

I couldn't figure that out from dialogues, too.

Not quite sure. Possibly something that reinforced the planets gravity (supersized gravity well) and pulled everything out of the sky to crash on the planet?

 

4. Why did Kreia want the death of the force?

I thought that perhaps she was alike Nihilus and just wanted to devour all the force, but maybe I'm wrong...

She hated to be controlled and manipulated by it. Kind of ironic considering her own nature

 

As far as I have been able to determine, she wanted to teach people how to live without the force and the exile was her (sometimes unwilling) student.

 

5. What exactly happened on Malachor V that made the exile "the wound in the force"?

Much speculations... The exile had a lot of strong bonds to the people around him. If a lot of severing/deaths took place at once it created some kind of "dimensional vortex" sucking the life out of surroundings. The exiles defense mechanism seemed to be the ability to sever his/her own connection to the force and therefore continue living, even while being that "vortex" moving around in the galaxy. Since he/she is "empty", there is nothing to drain there, as Darth Nihilus found out when he tried to drain the force from the exile. Like french kissing a 1800w vaccuum cleaner.

 

P.S.

KOTOR 2 is really better than KOTOR1... The characters are more real and alive, they're thought out deeply, especially Kreia. The plot is "mature" if you can call it like that. Probably the game characters or its plot wouldn't appeal to some, dependant on their age . The plot is so exciting... but so vague at some points, as if whole chunks of it were missing. I hope that it's just me.

Umm, no. It wasn't just you. The game did suffer from some heavy handed cutting that left this feeling of "Huh?" in quite a few places, making an already moderately complex story line trickier to follow. I can definitely recommend Team Gizka's website and forums for an overview of how much was cut. It is staggering :sad:

[Petra]

You only have Kreia's word for it (and the exiles speculations on the nature of the bond), that it could be lethal. She is a manipulative old girl

Alright, but logically, the bond was talked about as lethal throughout the whole game. Surely whoever wrote the scernario intended it to be considered lethal, and the problem either solved later, or revealed as Kreia's lies!

As it is, there was no explanation, and it seems as if Obsidian created "lethal bond" as a "red herring"... which is doubtful, because it didn't mislead you to false conclusions anyway. The talk about the lethal bond just wasn't needed.

So maybe explanations were in that "cut content".

 

As far as can be determined from the game, yes. He constructed it. The exile was his commanding officer (Yes, general) during that battle.

Wow... "A simple mech", as he called himself

 

Possibly something that reinforced the planets gravity (supersized gravity well) and pulled everything out of the sky to crash on the planet?

But why would they want to destroy the whole planet, were they secretly hiding outside Malachor V while Mandalorians were sitting there? :\

I'm not even asking why they couldn't just bomb the planet into oblivion (like Taris)...

 

Damn!! I wish Obsidian released some book or a booklet with the game scenario. Or they could post it online, as a gift to faithful fans...

 

She hated to be controlled and manipulated by it. Kind of ironic considering her own nature

Interesting. Does she say it in the game? I just wonder why you think so.

After all, Kreia told the exile that she loved her how you love a champion, as something that she herself couldn't become. She was admiring her powers. She also said that she'd kill the whole galaxy to preserve the exile, and she did kill the Council in order to save the exile's powers.

That didn't sound like Kreia hated the force...

 

Much speculations... The exile had a lot of strong bonds to the people around him. If a lot of severing/deaths took place at once it created some kind of "dimensional vortex" sucking the life out of surroundings. The exiles defense mechanism seemed to be the ability to sever his/her own connection to the force and therefore continue living, even while being that "vortex" moving around in the galaxy.

I see. But why the exile became that "vortex"? Does she somehow sucked all those deaths inside of her and couldn't get rid of them? :\

As far as I understood, she became like Nihilus (don't mind me saying "she" everywhere, I just found out that canonically the exile was a she, and Revan a he). The exile was not strong, she just fed on deaths, at least as much was stated quite clearly in the game. And that's why the Council wanted to cut her off from the force. Yet in the end of the game she somehow saved herself by staying with the LS. I can't get it. How can she save herself (while still being a force-user) if she's like Nihilus!

 

Since he/she is "empty", there is nothing to drain there, as Darth Nihilus found out when he tried to drain the force from the exile. Like french kissing a 1800w vaccuum cleaner.

I was very surprised that he felt hurt... After all, if she's empty, he shouldn't have felt anything at all

By the way, in the final battle Kreia had no problems with using Drain Life on me, which is very funny I guess the exile was supposed to be immune to such Force from the start, haha.

 

Umm, no. It wasn't just you. The game did suffer from some heavy handed cutting that left this feeling of "Huh?" in quite a few places, making an already moderately complex story line trickier to follow. I can definitely recommend Team Gizka's website and forums for an overview of how much was cut. It is staggering :sad:

That's sad. I just wish there was a way to persuade Obsidian to release a scenario, the fans would surely be happy...

[Dark Wastl]

But why would they want to destroy the whole planet, were they secretly hiding outside Malachor V while Mandalorians were sitting there? :\

I'm not even asking why they couldn't just bomb the planet into oblivion (like Taris)...

 

Actually, the game mentions that it was a trap by Revan. He put a part of the Republic forces which he couldn't turn to his side as bait for the Mandalorians. They fell for it and launched an all out attack, outnumbering the Republic forces by quite a bit. In comes the mass shadow generator, and Revan gets rid of both the enemy and many people who wouldn't follow him in a war against the Republic.

 

Interesting. Does she say it in the game? I just wonder why you think so.

After all, Kreia told the exile that she loved her how you love a champion, as something that she herself couldn't become. She was admiring her powers. She also said that she'd kill the whole galaxy to preserve the exile, and she did kill the Council in order to save the exile's powers.

That didn't sound like Kreia hated the force...

 

Kreia admired the Exile because the Exile can exist without the force. He can use it, but is no part of it, like all other beings are.

As the Jedi masters say, the Exile is leeching of other beings, which makes him a threat to the force. That's why they attacked him.

 

 

I see. But why the exile became that "vortex"? Does she somehow sucked all those deaths inside of her and couldn't get rid of them? :\

As far as I understood, she became like Nihilus (don't mind me saying "she" everywhere, I just found out that canonically the exile was a she, and Revan a he). The exile was not strong, she just fed on deaths, at least as much was stated quite clearly in the game. And that's why the Council wanted to cut her off from the force. Yet in the end of the game she somehow saved herself by staying with the LS. I can't get it. How can she save herself (while still being a force-user) if she's like Nihilus!

 

No, I think it's supposed to be the opposite. If the Exile hadn't cut his connection to the force, he would have felt all those deaths and died because of it.

I guess the Exile saved himself, because as a lightsider he didn't have Nihilus behaviour. As a lightsider he is only leeching of the other people in a small part, unlike Nihilus, who is actively sucking the life out of everything.

You could say that a lightsider uses this feeding-ability only in a passive way, while a darksider like Nihilus is using it actively. Not to mention that a lightsider sees less death than a darksider, at least that's what you would expect.

 

So by keeping to the light, this special ability has less chance to fullfil it's real power.

Edited January 6, 2008 by Dark Wastl

[Darth Hades]

1. Why doesn't the exile die when Kreia dies?

 

 

Originally the bond formed with Kreia was to show the Exile what she had missed during he time away from the force, Kreia used this bond to refresh and help the Exile recover what she once was. As the Exile gets more bonds with her friends in the game, her bond to Kreia is weakened.

 

2. What did Bao-Dur create that he blamed himself for so much, was it the Mass-Shadow Generator?

I couldn't figure that out from dialogues, he just acknowledges that he created something terrible that changed the planet.

 

The Mass Shadow Generator, look it up on wookipedia to learn more

 

3. What was the Mass-Shadow generator and what did it do, how did it manage to make the planet "dark"?

I couldn't figure that out from dialogues, too.

 

See above answer

 

4. Why did Kreia want the death of the force?

I thought that perhaps she was alike Nihilus and just wanted to devour all the force, but maybe I'm wrong...

 

Kreia wanted its death because she felt it was too painful a thing to know and lose, as she did and the Exile did. If you have come to the impression that Kreia was "evil" as Nihilus or other Sith lords, you are mistaken.

 

5. What exactly happened on Malachor V that made the exile "the wound in the force"?

 

The exile could form very strong bonds with Jedi and non Jedi through the Force. When bonds are broken, by death or serverance, they leave a ripple in the force. When alderaan was destroy, it left a ripple that Obi wan had felt, in essence that was a very very small "wound".

 

The exiles wound had become so dangerous because she had so many strong connection during the War, I attribute much to Battle Meditation, then when the Mass Shadow generator was activated, it killed everyone on Malachor or in the skies above, causing ships to crash and death and destruction. This massive loss of bonded life created a huge "wound" in the force. Its severity is likely due to the number of Jedi whom the Exile could/did bond with in battle.

Edited January 6, 2008 by Darth Hades

[Petra]

Actually, the game mentions that it was a trap by Revan. He put a part of the Republic forces which he couldn't turn to his side as bait for the Mandalorians.

Hm... Is that was the exile's vision on Korriban was about? That one, with a soldier begging don't send us their to our deaths, we're outnumbered.

Well, that vision starts to make sense now! Thanx.

 

If the Exile hadn't cut his connection to the force, he would have felt all those deaths and died because of it.

How did he do it "automatically", without even knowing it? I mean, he was blaming the Council for it in the game....

 

You could say that a lightsider uses this feeding-ability only in a passive way, while a darksider like Nihilus is using it actively. Not to mention that a lightsider sees less death than a darksider, at least that's what you would expect.

 

So by keeping to the light, this special ability has less chance to fullfil it's real power.

I see. But the exile is dangerous anyway, nobody can be sure that his light alignment would remain light.

So I guess, if KOTOR 3 existed, it would be very logical for Revan to try to kill the exile there, like the vision on Korriban showed. It's interesting. I was wondering for a while why two Lightsiders would fight, and that reason finally sounds realistic.

Although naturally, Revan was dressed as a Darksider in the vision, but oh well. It's all speculations anyway.

 

 

By the way, who was that person that stood with Revan in the vision and quickly disappeared?

[Petra]

Kreia wanted its death because she felt it was too painful a thing to know and lose, as she did and the Exile did.

Do you mean that it was a revenge? Seems a bit shallow motive for Kreia :\ She wasn't stupid and driven by emotions, after all.

 

If you have come to the impression that Kreia was "evil" as Nihilus or other Sith lords, you are mistaken.

You know, at the end of the game I didn't care any more if she was evil, all I wanted is to find a way not to kill her. I still think that the developers are too cruel! Kreia was a perfect mother\teacher character, and I found it very hard to fight her and very hard to accept that there was no way to let her live. Basically Kreia killed herself, because if she really wanted, she could use the power of that place to replenish her own, like Sion did. She could easily be invincible instead of having a fair duel.

So, could you please elaborate why Kreia wasn't evil? It would be interesting to hear. She behaved normally most of the time, as if she disliked her past and decided to be not Sith or Jedi, but simply a human. Then suddenly she went back to become Sion's dark master and tried to "break" the exile. I don't understand why she jumped from human to sith. There was something about her nature being betrayal and her "human" behaviour being a manipulation all along, but no explanation why her nature was betrayal.

What do you think?

 

The exiles wound had become so dangerous because she had so many strong connection during the War, I attribute much to Battle Meditation, then when the Mass Shadow generator was activated, it killed everyone on Malachor or in the skies above, causing ships to crash and death and destruction. This massive loss of bonded life created a huge "wound" in the force. Its severity is likely due to the number of Jedi whom the Exile could/did bond with in battle.

Okay, I see.. And still it doesn't explain why she gained an ability to feed off of the force. :\

[Knights&Darths]

1. Why doesn't the exile die when Kreia dies?

"A bond between two living beings is not something easily broken.

It not a choice

[Darth Hades]

Do you mean that it was a revenge? Seems a bit shallow motive for Kreia :\ She wasn't stupid and driven by emotions, after all.

 

The force is very powerful, as was stated in the game many times, to lose the force is to lose all your senses, but more than that, because you had known how "powerful" the force was. Kreia said to Atton, on Telos that he in many ways was more powerful than a Jedi, in that he didn't rely on The Force. Kreia disliked the Force in a way that, she had been touched by it, she knew of its power and it was taken from her, causing a deep wound in herself. The force is too powerful a thing to just "lose connection with", Kreia wanted to eliminate the Force's control over the Universe, which would have guaranteed the Universes destruction.

 

Was it just revenge? Partly, Kreia never wanted you to do this or that, only to think about it deeply and the consequence as it would ripple through the Force. Kreia had personal motives, but she left herself open ended, no ruthless extremism. Kreia was a gray philospher, emotions and extremes are weaknesses of light side or dark side, being gray, Kreia had greater control.

 

 

You know, at the end of the game I didn't care any more if she was evil, all I wanted is to find a way not to kill her. I still think that the developers are too cruel! Kreia was a perfect mother\teacher character, and I found it very hard to fight her and very hard to accept that there was no way to let her live. Basically Kreia killed herself, because if she really wanted, she could use the power of that place to replenish her own, like Sion did. She could easily be invincible instead of having a fair duel.

 

She could have, but as we saw with the Exile, the Exile was too powerful even for Sion whose strength was essentially limitless. She knew her time had come, the Exile was her greatest student in that the Exile had the power to realize her dreams. No gray philosopher would just keep battling an endless battle, Kreia knew this. She had already laid the path for the Exile to choose, one of dark (stay on malachor/revive sith), one of light (Destroy Malachor and rebuild the galaxy). No longer could she influence you, so she did what any good teacher does, and gives you the choice, knowing she can teach no more.

 

So, could you please elaborate why Kreia wasn't evil? It would be interesting to hear. She behaved normally most of the time, as if she disliked her past and decided to be not Sith or Jedi, but simply a human. Then suddenly she went back to become Sion's dark master and tried to "break" the exile. I don't understand why she jumped from human to sith. There was something about her nature being betrayal and her "human" behaviour being a manipulation all along, but no explanation why her nature was betrayal.

What do you think?

 

The way Kreia manipulated events is very similar to how Palpatine did, yes, she caused much death in her goals, but she was never overly "ruthless". your definition of evil seems to hinge of "good or bad" Kreia was neither. She was intelligent, collective and above all else, open mindedly experienced. Malak, was evil, Nihilus, was evil, Sion was evil, how do they differ from Kreia? They would all kill at the drop of a hat, most often for no reason at all, Kreia would not. Her indepth knowledge of the Force should be evidence enough that she is not "evil".

 

Okay, I see.. And still it doesn't explain why she gained an ability to feed off of the force. :\

 

She didn't, Kreia does not have the force feed technique. She can draw energies from locations where it runs deep, like Malachor, but she could not feed off it like Nihilus could. You confuse "Force feeding" and "Force channeling" which are very different from each other

 

 

 

Now one could argue that the Destruction of the Force is a truly evil deed, but that is another time and no offense, but your lack of true understanding on the matter would hinder you in such an argument.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Darth Hades

[Petra]

When Kreia fell to the dark side, her kinship with the Exile faded. Lonna Vash was supposed to put this plainly but her part was cut, and I personally think things are better off this way. The Exile went after Kreia because of the threat that their bond represented to her, and had she known there was no real danger she would have had no reason to return to Malachor V. I mean, on the Ebon Hawk, after the Enclave slaughter, the Exile can mention to Atton but one reason to go after her, and that's their bond.

Thanx...

I also found Team Gizka's site and am reading about what things got cut. Ouch

 

And thanx for the link, I'm reading it.

[Petra]

The force is very powerful, as was stated in the game many times, to lose the force is to lose all your senses, but more than that, because you had known how "powerful" the force was.

To me it sounds like Force obsession = Ego...

Why would you be obsessed with magic power? You wouldn't, but if you want to influence others' lives as you desire, than maybe.

Kreia should've wanted to destroy her own ego, if she was obsessed. Not the Force.

But in the game she is bent of destroying the Force. I don't understand it. Period.

Either Kreia was stupid, or (most likely) game developers meant her motives to be something else...

Was it just revenge? Partly, Kreia never wanted you to do this or that, only to think about it deeply and the consequence as it would ripple through the Force. Kreia had personal motives, but she left herself open ended, no ruthless extremism. Kreia was a gray philospher, emotions and extremes are weaknesses of light side or dark side, being gray, Kreia had greater control.

I can't relate, to be honest. If Kreia acted out of her moral pain of losing the Force once, that's purely egotistic (=darkside in SW Universe), and she seemed like a character of another scope to me. She was portrayed as "wise" in the game, but she couldn't understand that it was herself who was causing her pain? Strange.

You don't try to eliminate something if it caused you pain, thinking that then everybody else will be safe, too... Because you know that the reason is you.

It's like some people who fell in love and it ended tragically, they're afraid of having a new relationship. But even they aren't creating a new Anti-Love movement on a global scale, they aren't psychos.

 

"Ruthless extremism" - do you mean a conventional villain's behaviour, like Malak in KOTOR1 who'd kill for pleasure and stupidly laugh while uttering threatening nonsense? Yes, that was a breath of fresh air that Kreia was not such a villain. Even Sion and Nihilus looked decent, being just unfortunate victims of their vices.

 

Malak, was evil, Nihilus, was evil, Sion was evil, how do they differ from Kreia? They would all kill at the drop of a hat, most often for no reason at all, Kreia would not. Her indepth knowledge of the Force should be evidence enough that she is not "evil".

You seem to define evil by willingness to kill :\ I define it by causing trouble to others when you CAN avoid it. Malak was certainly an example of such evil, being a conventional villain. Others who you named were not. Nihilus couldn't avoid being what he was, and Sion openly said that he was "broken" to become what he was and the only way for him to turn away from it was death.

Kreia seemed to be free in her choices, though. If she fell to the darkside at the end of the game, she was fully responsible for that.

 

What I have a problem with is the game's definition of evil. In the game Kreia was dressed in black robes, had black eyes on Malachor, that must mean that she became evil again, whether you and I agree with it or not.

 

Kreia does not have the force feed technique. She can draw energies from locations where it runs deep, like Malachor, but she could not feed off it like Nihilus could. You confuse "Force feeding" and "Force channeling" which are very different from each other

I was asking about the Exile

 

Now one could argue that the Destruction of the Force is a truly evil deed

Anything that destroys the whole world is evil for the whole world, so that must be evil...

 

your lack of true understanding on the matter would hinder you in such an argument.

On what matter, a game?

Indeed, it's difficult sometimes to understand what the game says. Because it's so removed from life.

Sci-fi setting helps, since it could exist in future. Things like Star Forge exploding in space certainly don't help realism, because in real life fire can't burn in space (even if it looks cool in a game). The same with these "moral" things... I console myself with thinking that Jedi idea is a rip-off Eastern philosophy in a Western interpretation, this alikeness makes it more or less realistic, even if getting "power" is too easy and quick to be realistic. Sith idea is outright ridiculous, though: such people couldn't exist, there's no evil power or something that could cause "a wound" in the Force, or taint a place or person. It's childish and removed from life. The most awful examples are the whole idea of "darkside" which doesn't exist, or of how Revan won the war being so young and inexperienced... In real life he wouldn't be able to assemble an army, noone would care to listen to a youngster with no political\financial power, without military education and military feats. Revan was nobody and wasn't capable of winning a war or becoming a military leader.

 

That wasn't intended as bashing the game, KOTOR is great as entertainment.

 

What I want to say is that it's so removed from reality and so different when it comes to morality that you can't really judge it in realistic terms. And thus there's no "true understanding" you speak of, it simply isn't possible.

So what I'm trying to do here is understand what was the game creators' understanding of what their characters did and why. And what the game would be like as they intended it to be, if they didn't rush it. I mean, really, after the Onderon War the game story simply fails, it's incomprehensible and most of it is missing. Even surroudings suffered: the whole Trayus Academy is EMPTY. They haven't nearly finished designing it when the game was released, imho.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Petra

[Petra]

Can somebody please say who was that character who stood beside Revan in the Korriban's vision?

[Knights&Darths]

Can somebody please say who was that character who stood beside Revan in the Korriban's vision?

It was the Exile. She saw a vision of herself beside Revan, though dark side features and black robe are not to suggest she was a Dark Jedi.

[Darth Hades]

In lieu of all that...

 

You still don't see just how powerful the Force is. To you, its just magic, you have to take the creativity of your mind and be able to invision a world where this "Force" functions as we've seen in games/movies.

 

Play the game again, the more you play, the easier it is to understand.

[Petra]

Can somebody please say who was that character who stood beside Revan in the Korriban's vision?

It was the Exile. She saw a vision of herself beside Revan, though dark side features and black robe are not to suggest she was a Dark Jedi.

Hm, I see. But it seems to suggest dark alignment in future, nevethless.

Besides, I checked and it turned out that the Exile in the vision has dark alignment, too... I refuse to believe that the developers did it accidentally, it wouldmake no sense.

[Petra]

You still don't see just how powerful the Force is. To you, its just magic, you have to take the creativity of your mind and be able to invision a world where this "Force" functions as we've seen in games/movies.

And you're one of those who want to be cooller than others and influence the world, right? That's the difference between us.

If the Force existed in reality, it would be simply the Force, something impersonal, that can be used for good or bad ends. People like you would consider it "power" for themselves and would be obsessed with it and how "great" and "powerful" it makes them be, with cool functions it has, and thus such people would be falling to the so-called darkside.

You'll change later, it's very likely just maximalism and self-pride of youth

I hope I didn't insult you. I know when people told me about maximalism I felt hurt, but later I had to agree.