Atris to the Handmaiden

[Guest The Architect]

I agree with Purgatorio. It doesn't make sense for Kreia to have been there at Malachor V when the MSG was activated and the 'cleaning house' tactic was being used. I doubt that Kreia ever went to Malachor V before the Jedi Civil War, but it doesn

Edited January 8, 2007 by The Architect

[Knights&Darths]

none of these hints became anything else [

[Darth Mortis]

(The following is taken from Wookiepedia's entry on Malacor IV);

 

After the battle, Revan and Malak journeyed to the Trayus Academy on Malachor V, where they learned of the Star Maps that would eventually lead them to the Star Forge, beginning their final descent into darkness.

 

To me this would seem to imply that Revan hadn't set foot on Malacore until after the war. It is also stated that everyone on the planet died when the mass shadow generator was activated, so Revan can't have been on the planet at the time.

 

Some time later, during the Jedi Civil War, Revan's old Master Kreia traveled to Malachor V in search of what had corrupted her apprentice. Like Revan, she was corrupted by the dark side energy resonating throughout the planet. In secret, Kreia took the moniker of Darth Traya and began training new students of the dark side in the Trayus Academy.

 

While open to debate this would seem to indicate that Kreia was exiled after the Mandalorian war, in which case she couldn't be Kae-who seems to have been exiled before the war. Note that it says that she was corrupted by Malacor, which would imply that she was a Jedi when she went there. If she had been an Exile at this time she would have had no real reason to take a new name in secret, she could have just hidden herself away.

 

It is also interesting in that the Handmaiden says that her mother died during the Mandalorian war, not during the Jedi Civil war. While the Handmaiden could have been lied to I can't understand why anyone wouldn't tell her that her mother was still alive after the war......all in all I can't help but feel that this does not help the Kreia is Kae side of the argument.

 

(There is another question to ask about the Handmaiden, one that only occured to me after writing the above;

 

If the children of Jedi are typically strong in the force themselves then why did no one take the Handmaiden to the Jedi academy for training? Could they have belived she was too old at that point? Or is this a large hole in the plot no one realised was there?)

 

Kreia's knowledge about Malacor is more likely to have come from her time teaching at the academy than from having been anywhere near the system when the MSG was activated. The masters could have discovered what happened quite easily, first such a large number of people (Including Jedi) dying all at the same moment and in the same place would create a large ripple in the force that any Jedi master worth the name would find hard to miss (Think Obi-Wan's reaction to Alderans destruction in starwars IV). The second way that they would have known is simply by asking. Although no Jedi (The Exile aside) survived the battle others did, Bao-Dur was at Malacor IV and survived so I assume others did as well. It would be very strange if no one asked any of the survivers exactly what happened during the battle.

[Knights&Darths]

Wookiepedia is about canon only, ours on the other hand are speculations, since the only canon material is that in the game and the chronicles and not much else, I urge you to consider the amazing number of discrepancies before you even think of using that article in this debate. Being a wookiepedian myself I know every speculative argumentation, however relevant, must be and it is presented as such or removed from the article. While those discrepancies are mentioned, as are the most notable speculations if set apart from what is fact, a wiki is always to keep to canon material.

After the battle, Revan and Malak journeyed to the Trayus Academy on Malachor V, where they learned of the Star Maps that would eventually lead them to the Star Forge, beginning their final descent into darkness

That ignores Kreia's words completely, while the chronicles do say that, it seems to me that what is actually said in the game has more worth, wouldn't you say? The whole war was to be a conversion tool, not that I want to sonud self-righteous but I really can't see what is there to debate about that, and it is revealed that Revan learned about those techniques right there on Malachor picking that place as the last stand to break the will of Jedi and turn them to the dark side, which was the quickest way to make them give up the Jedi Code and swear allegiance to him, unifying the galaxy against the greater threat for which the Jedi would have taken no action in their passivity, and for which they weren't strong enough as we can see watching how easily three of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the Order were slain by a single blow from the teachings of the old Sith.

"Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side"

 

[Guest The Architect]

Umm...WTF Darth Mortis? Kreia wasn't exiled after the Mandalorian Wars, because Kavar and the Council all thought she had died in the Mandalorian Wars.

 

I'll make my massive post here some other day explaining why I think Kreia and Kae are the same person. I can't be stuffed right now, that's why I'm not posting it right now, but it will be interesting to see what you (Darth Mortis) and Purgatorio think of it, since you're both not of the opinion that they are the same person.

Edited January 9, 2007 by The Architect

[Darth Mortis]

But that is exactly what it seems - and Bao-Dur just got lost after the war, there is nothing that would lead to think that he met any Jedi Master, much less talk about the war and what he had done - not even by the end of the JCW the Jedi had any clue of what exactly happend on Malachor, nor would they have any means of being aware of the existence of Trayus Accademy. Listen to Dorak, Vrook, Bastila and all the others, you'll see that all they know is that Revan was somehow corrupted by whatever force he met in the outer rims, when Revan did not return they thought some great disaster had befallen the remnant of the fleet and killed them all, until months later he came back with a massive invasion fleet, I'm not making this up, I can quote Dorak if I haven't already.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is no way that the Rupublic is not going to debrief its soliders after a battle. We're talking about a military force here, debriefings are standard practice after any kind of battle, even after an eventless patrol. We are talking about a battle that everyone would A; know was historic-the last battle of the war and B; involved the elimination of most of the Republic forces that took part. The Republic would not only want to know what happened, but would be in a position to ask. A soldier might get away with a vague discription of what happened-depending on what part they were playing in the fight (The chief medical officer is not going to be expected to recount events on the bridge). But an outright refusal to attend a debriefing is grounds for a court martial. It is not difficult for me to believe that Bao-Dur would have been very unwilling to tell the Republic exactly what he did, and its even feasible that he 'forgot' how to create the weapon he used. But the idea of him just walking off into the sunset without being forced to give some type of discription is ludicrous.

 

Since the Republic would have debriefed the soldiers that survived the battle, it is reasonable to assume that they would have shared that information with the Jedi council, after all the council would want to know why so many Jedi died in a single battle. It may be that very few of the survivers would have been in a position to know exactly what happened, and those who did might have been less that fully forthcoming as to what went on, but the council would have known about the battle at least.

 

As to knowing about the Academy, well whats to say that they didn't know? They might have been aware that the planet used to be part of the Sith Empire, they might even have been aware there used to be and academy there. But given the amount of damage done to the fleets that where near Malachor when the MSG was turned on they could easilly be forgiven for assuming the academy had been destroyed.

[Knights&Darths]

There is no way that the Rupublic is not going to debrief its soliders after a battle [

[Guest The Architect]

Okay, here

Edited January 9, 2007 by The Architect

[Knights&Darths]

Atris:

[Purgatorio]

In response to Architect's post.

 

Thank you for explaining the Portmanteau Architect, I never fully understood that from the last thread which was many months ago. In that one I don

Edited January 12, 2007 by Purgatorio

[Knights&Darths]

Kriea mentions the importance of leaving the past behind, so why would she choose such a name?

To leave the past behind does not mean forgetting it, she also says it is important to learn from mistakes of the past.

I never got that in a playthrough

[Guest The Architect]

In response to Architect's post.

 

Thank you for explaining the Portmanteau Architect, I never fully understood that from the last thread which was many months ago. In that one I don

Edited January 17, 2007 by The Architect

[Darth Gibbo 99]

["There is a world on the Outer Rim surrounded by mass shadows. Past the graveyard of Mandalorian warships, this planet suffers, crushed in gravity's fist. To walk on its surface is to feel it crushing every cell of your being. It is like being buried alive until it seems you will never breathe again. What manner of creature would have birthed such a thing? Nothing human, to be sure. If you dare voice your opinions again, Iridonian, you will forget yourself for a time. Return to your machines, and trouble me no more. Serve the exile until it is your time to die, and it will be enough."

 

[Knights&Darths]

Atris like everyone else would have had no means to know that name

Actually Kreia did tell her her Sith alias though it makes little difference.

the Handmaiden said her mothers robes were recovered from the Mandalorian Wars by Yusanis I think.

"These are her robes. I have not worn them since they came into my possession. They are the only thing of her that I possess."

 

[Purgatorio]

You mock my pain Architect. :'(

Obsidian should get the :'( with the quivering lip. :D

 

Trust you not to gain enough influence with Disciple.  I got that piece of dialogue by gaining enough influence with him/her/it/whatever. But of course, I did so, only to find out if he could tell me anything useful.

 

Once I endured the horror of listening to his *yawn* garbage *yawn* instead of saving the game after his drivel, I just reloaded back to the point where I last saved the game, which was just before I was about to speak to him, because my canonical Exile would never gain any influence with him. 

 

Apart from giving him a slow, painful death after being forced to listen to a group of Gungans and Selkath for hours, which unfortunately I couldn

Edited January 20, 2007 by Purgatorio

[Guest The Architect]

Anyone might think you don't like the Disciple....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nonsense. How could anyone think that I don

Edited January 20, 2007 by The Architect

[Knights&Darths]

"Oh, not to love is no crime, or so the Jedi believe. It is their code that kills life..."

 

[Darth Mortis]

Kreia said that she trained Revan as a padawan and we know that she was Revan

[Knights&Darths]

I will freely admit that that could have been the intention for everything that is said on the matter to imply that Kreia and Kae were one and the same. But this is unclear from what is said, and can't be proved one way or another given the confusion from what or who is really a Jedi's first master...

I don't see it, yet even so, we do know both were Revan's final master, who Mical claims to be also the first, and both Kae and Kreia are referenced to have been sought out by Revan before he left known space for the same last knowledge to be imparted. Mentioning Master Kae, Mical says Revan was her padawan and fails to remember any other who came after, implying she was the first to train him.