50 reasons why.. part two

[Maria Caliban]

The patches have solved a number of performance issues, though I weep for people with dial-up.

 

It is harder to create modules with the Neverwinter Night's 2 toolset than it is with the one BioWare created. It is not made with the casual user in mind and I think it has a steeper learning curve than BioWare's.

 

However, I disagree that creating custom content is harder.

 

As for the cave debate, I decided to see if I could create a suitably subterranean appearing exterior with some elevations. I think it's adequate.

[Bokishi]

Well if I were to complain, the patch hasn't solved all of the performance issues yet.

[Riftworm]

The patches have solved a number of performance issues, though I weep for people with dial-up.

 

It is harder to create modules with the Neverwinter Night's 2 toolset than it is with the one BioWare created. It is not made with the casual user in mind and I think it has a steeper learning curve than BioWare's.

 

However, I disagree that creating custom content is harder.

 

As for the cave debate, I decided to see if I could create a suitably subterranean appearing exterior with some elevations. I think it's adequate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Um..the "cave" discussion was pointing out Obsidian didn't include a way to elevate the ground on INTERIORS, like you could in NWN1.

 

I can't even see that picture btw - you may wanna jiu-jitsu that in photoshop and raise the low value curves up a tad.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Riftworm

[Darque]

Not really the point though.

 

It would seem you CAN make "interior" looking maps with elevations using exterior pieces.

 

And since it seems you can, that's all that matters.

[Riftworm]

Not really the point though.

 

It would seem you CAN make "interior" looking maps with elevations using exterior pieces.

 

And since it seems you can, that's all that matters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Since it "seems you can" that's all that matters? How about just - you can?

 

Can I get a confirmation?

 

That would be really cool if we could once gain build an ascending elevated boss area underground. That's 1 down 49 to go.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Riftworm

[Maria Caliban]

I'm sorry. I thought your point of contention was that you couldn't create a suitably realistic cave like environment with elevations. Darque's idea was wonderful way to address this.

 

Yes, I was worried that the image wasn't clear

[Riftworm]

I'm sorry. I thought your point of contention was that you couldn't create a suitably realistic cave like environment with elevations. Darque's idea was wonderful way to address this.

 

Yes, I was worried that the image wasn't clear

Edited November 25, 2006 by Riftworm

[Riftworm]

Everyone seems a bit confused on a fairly simple concept. The old NWN1 Toolset allowed for raised tiles to be places to make hills in caves, or steps in caverns for interiors. Often as high as a mountain if you wanted. This not only made for great scene building for a boss scenario to have a much more grand apperance, but offered a wealth of options for map makers looking to add aesthetic variety or strategic points to their cave and cavern systems. Well Obsidian forgot that apparently and left those out.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Riftworm

[Darque]

Umm.. no...

 

I'm fairly certain we all get what you're complaining about.

 

But it seems it IS possible to make these types of things using indirect means... so they are do-able.

 

So it seems this particular argument is over.

 

[Maria Caliban]

Better?

[Riftworm]

Umm.. no...

 

I'm fairly certain we all get what you're complaining about.

 

But it seems it IS possible to make these types of things using indirect means... so they are do-able.

 

So it seems this particular argument is over. 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Huh? lol No she just explained that she simulated a cave outside ..rofls.

 

That's not my gripe. I'm talking about all interiors having an elevated tileset, and Obsidian forgot those.

 

:crazy:

[roshan]

I never used the NWN1 toolset but the NWN2 is difficult to use. I started it and there were hundreds of buttons everywhere - it took me a long time to just find where the tools such as elevation were. It could certainly be organized a bit more.

Edited November 25, 2006 by roshan

[Fenghuang]

Umm.. no...

 

I'm fairly certain we all get what you're complaining about.

 

But it seems it IS possible to make these types of things using indirect means... so they are do-able.

 

So it seems this particular argument is over. 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Huh? lol No she just explained that she simulated a cave outside ..rofls.

 

That's not my gripe. I'm talking about all interiors having an elevated tileset, and Obsidian forgot those.

 

:crazy:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Everybody understands your gripe.

 

Those with sense also understand that it's possible to evoke the same feel by tweaking an exterior so it looks underground.

 

At this point I'm just gonna say you're looking for a reason to complain and leave it at that unless you can explain to everyone precisely why this workaround wouldn't work in certain instances.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Fenghuang

[17243_1556103691]

I never used the NWN1 toolset but the NWN2 is difficult to use. I started it and there were hundreds of buttons everywhere - it took me a long time to just find where the tools such as elevation were. It could certainly be organized a bit more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Naw, J.E. Sawyer confirmed they didn't have elevation tiles for interiors.

[Darque]

Umm.. no...

 

I'm fairly certain we all get what you're complaining about.

 

But it seems it IS possible to make these types of things using indirect means... so they are do-able.

 

So it seems this particular argument is over. 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Huh? lol No she just explained that she simulated a cave outside ..rofls.

 

That's not my gripe. I'm talking about all interiors having an elevated tileset, and Obsidian forgot those.

 

:crazy:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

/sigh.

 

Yes, I realize this. In fact she used my idea as she said above.

 

It would seem you're not understanding what I'm saying, or you're just arguing for argument's sake at this point.

[Riftworm]

Umm.. no...

 

I'm fairly certain we all get what you're complaining about.

 

But it seems it IS possible to make these types of things using indirect means... so they are do-able.

 

So it seems this particular argument is over. 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Huh? lol No she just explained that she simulated a cave outside ..rofls.

 

That's not my gripe. I'm talking about all interiors having an elevated tileset, and Obsidian forgot those.

 

:crazy:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

/sigh.

 

Yes, I realize this. In fact she used my idea as she said above.

 

It would seem you're not understanding what I'm saying, or you're just arguing for argument's sake at this point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Whoa what? No you don't understand, I'm not trying to argue, I'm saying that's nice she simulated an outside cave, but I'm not looking for a ghetto jimmy rig quick bandaid fix and fake scenes. I simply want them to reimplement and fix that glaring oversight.

 

This isn't somethigng I'm doing now. I'm not modding at the moment, but when I tried I noticed that and it was confirmed it was occluded, but more than likely forgotten. In which case would be nice to reimplent some elevated interior tiles.

 

 

This isn't even the focus of my 50 list. This is number 8 and didn't have much emphasis, I just thought it would be nice to redo that because yeah it kinda sucks they forgot yknow.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Riftworm

[Darque]

Oh, I understand perfectly.

 

You've been presented with another way to get the functionality that you desire, but you're still not happy with it. (for reasons I'm not even going to attempt to guess at)

[Maria Caliban]

As long as you can adequately simulate the environment you desire, I don't understand the problem.

 

No, it's not the entirety of your list, but as you considered that oversight to be a game ender, I thought you might be happy to know that the situation was not as negative as you seemed to believe.

[Riftworm]

Oh, I understand perfectly.

 

You've been presented with another way to get the functionality that you desire, but you're still not happy with it. (for reasons I'm not even going to attempt to guess at)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Uhh I don't understand why everyone is weird about forcing simulated outdoor caves down my throat when I'm not even modding at the moment.

 

I'm not interested in fake scenes, I'd like authentic interior tiles for both caverns (steps) and caves (hills). This isn't just me its lots of modders at the vault bioware who even raised the subject. I'm sure its not some epiphany to simulate a cave, it's just cheap and isn't the same obviously.

 

---

 

On to --> # 1, 2, 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16, 21, 31, 37, and 42.

 

please ..lol

[Maria Caliban]

"Cheap?"

 

It's superior to any tileset method. Unless you're talking about a mine, subterranean areas are created by natural forces and rarely display the artifice one saw in NWN's cave settings. Using a terrain editor to simulate an underground editor is far more logical than tileset.

 

So, if you don't mod, why basis do you have for judging the ease of creating custom content and the toolset? As someone who's actually part of the modding community, I find it odd that you presume to understand these things when it seems your only knowledge of them comes from you opened up the toolset and playing around a bit.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Maria Caliban

[Maria Caliban]

On to --> # 1, 2, 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16, 21, 31, 37, and 42.

 

01) Linear Gameplay. The introduction of pathfinding not only removed exploration from the game in that you can no longer wander freely, but forced people to download custom content files to play online. A double step backwards and arguably (next to the overly strict adherence to pen and paper rules) the worst thing about NWN2 today.

 

02) UI is exceedingly counter-intuitive. The scattered and buried controls make it much harder to control your hero/party than ever thought possible. It crowds the screen that's already so zoomed in you cant see the entire map you're on. The time it takes to organize, buff , and finally attack a hostile in NWN2 is at least 30 seconds longer than in NWN1, and likely much longer for casters or scroll users. For some reason they decided to take away the clearly defined buffs indication icons and replace them with miniture green boxes. Without a magnifying glass you wont be sure what buffs you have.

 

04) Details of the game! They all add up. But in NWN2 there aren't enough to add. Remember the seemingly endless list of armor to choose from and how they didn't all include the same round shoulder pad? Yeah gone are those days too. Remember how shields looked solid, and weapons didnt look like 1mm sheets of graphite? NWN2 likes it when your weapons look like 1 mm sheets of graphite.

 

05) Corny and overused Spell VFX. Remember how you could actually tell what the oponent was casting, or what buffs he had in NWN1? Remember how impressive you looked when fully buffed in NWN1? Nothing to look at now. In NWN2 The spell vfx are so opaque and similar now that it's hard to tell one from another. Many spells don't even visually match well with the actual spell at all. Some are just flat out corny circles thrown on there with no reference to dimension. I think I saw my grandmothers quilting pattern and my local taco bell clerk's hairnet design!

 

10) Inventory. Why is my scythe the same size as my scroll? And why can't I see either of them? "quick give me this or that item!" --"uhh" uhh" ok" wait" ..."no...hmm...wait think i found it...no, no nevermind that's not it"

 

11) No Face Generator? No Body types? Amateurish unorganic looking faces, bodies and hair? 6 years after the Sims and this isn't in a game that is supposed to be built around making your character unique?

 

12) Limited furnishings for interiors are near hovel proportions. Remember the endless selections you had to make your interiors look every bit as unique as the feats and skills of your character? Those theme based object menus are long gone. Everyone is in a log cabin with the same rug and chests now, doesnt matter if you're a king or a peasant

 

14) Load times. Get the popcorn and cross your finger you don't have to reboot..just from making a transition. NWN2 made good and sure you won't be playing online even if you do manage to find that servers pwc file somehow.

 

16) Multiplayer nightmare. This one may be the death of NWN2 yet. Not only are clueless noobs never going to join your server because they never knew about pwc files, but if they did find out how to join they'd face the near inability to interact with other players compared to NWN1. No clear way to invite or be invited. No player list for the server. Text screen fly's by, fonts are displayed too small or too large, dialog pauses, transition crashes, entire party's are forced to transition together when just one wants to go increasing the likelihood that more than one of you will crash. It's ugly...real ugly.

 

21) Target aquisition is still in beta test right? When I want to click on a hostile I miss and run past him 75% of the time. NWN 1's Bioware team managed to remember people actually need to play this game,

 

31) Remeber hwo you could just walk up to a peasant and bhead him if you so chose in NWN1? Maybe you wanted some evil points or possible loot. Well Obsidian in all of their Disney Splendor decided to protect the random villager and spare them from your fury now as you can no longer randomly attack non combatants.

 

37) Underwear? Why are my PC's underwear enough to arm a milita? Is this because the modelers were trying to hide the poor body modeling they "baked" down and rushed out?

 

42) No sense of weight or flex tension to any of the characters! Bioware looks like a George Lucas Movie team compared to the Obsidian portfolio day work on animation model naturalism. NWN2 boasts flmsy beta characters that look like line drawings weilding plastic swords skating across the ground like some bad action figure frame animation.

[alanschu]

I'm curious how much of a contention this really is.

 

And I agree with Maria and Darque that if you can make something with the exterior terrain that looks and behaves and feels like an interior, continuing to gripe about the lack of ramps in the interior seems to more just be griping for the sake of griping.

 

One could even argue that something is wrong if you absolutely need a mountain inside of a game to give you the feeling of an epic climb up to a boss.

 

 

But if you can make a suitable looking dungeon map with the exterior terrain creator, the point becomes moot, because the exterior terrain design is infinitely better than anything NWN1 has, and better than what NWN2 interior has.

 

Thanks for looking into that Maria, I'll make sure to take a look into further. I imagine for most scenes the standard interior will work fine for me (especially for buildings and whatnot), but it's nice to have that bit of flexibility. I think you can even set the area to "underground" (or whatever it's called) so that the racial feats that work in those areas still work and whatnot.

 

 

Now if only I was less addicted to Madden 07 (I don't know why, but I find this game goofy fun, and I'm not even a huge sports gamer any more ) I could get more work done on my module

[Riftworm]

"Cheap?"

 

It's superior to any tileset method. Unless you're talking about a mine, subterranean areas are created by natural forces and rarely display the artifice one saw in NWN's cave settings. Using a terrain editor to simulate an underground editor is far more logical than tileset.

 

So, if you don't mod, why basis do you have for judging the ease of creating custom content and the toolset? As someone who's actually part of the modding community, I find it odd that you presume to understand these things when it seems your only knowledge of them comes from you opened up the toolset and playing around a bit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do mod, I said not at the moment. I'm on the Dungeon Eternal X development team. I made tons of mods for NWN1, including designing all of 6th Gate, and we just finished mapping DeX for NWN2.

 

I wasn't trying to be insulting, it's seriosuly that if Obsidian "forgot" about elevated tiles for caves, the need to remedy that. We shouldn't have to think of ways to work around a glaring oversight of a major tileset feature lost in the bustle of rushing the product out.

 

If you seriously want an example of how that wouldn't work in game here's why.

 

1. No one would beleive they were in a cave or cavern if they didn't transition through one.

 

2. No one would see the telltale earmark signs of a cave or cavern tileset to believe they were in one.

 

3. How are you in cave with a sky overhead? Even if you managed a rockfaced roof somehow where are the shafts of light? Cave objects ect..

 

Are you starting to get the picture?

 

If worse comes to worst I have no doubt the community will make their own elevated interior tiles, but I can assure you "faking" caves won't fly with the gaming public.

[alanschu]

1. No one would beleive they were in a cave or cavern if they didn't transition through one.

 

THen you make the cave link to a transition to an "exterior" area that looks like a cave. As an experienced modder, I'd think that this solution would have been obvious for you. Make the cave entrance just like you always would, but instead of having it link to an interior cave tileset, link it to the "exterior" cave map.

 

2. No one would see the telltale earmark signs of a cave or cavern tileset to believe they were in one.

 

What are the telltale earmark signs that you're in a cave or a cavern tileset?

 

3. How are you in cave with a sky overhead? Even if you managed a rockfaced roof somehow where are the shafts of light? Cave objects ect..

 

The sky can be completely blacked out, so you wouldn't see a sky. As for the lack of a roof, I can't imagine it being too hard to suspend disbelief in this one (unless you're nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking because you just want to bash a game), given that most people play the game from a more isometric viewpoint and rooftops don't actually exist.

[Riftworm]

1. No one would beleive they were in a cave or cavern if they didn't transition through one.

 

THen you make the cave link to a transition to an "exterior" area that looks like a cave. As an experienced modder, I'd think that this solution would have been obvious for you. Make the cave entrance just like you always would, but instead of having it link to an interior cave tileset, link it to the "exterior" cave map.

 

2. No one would see the telltale earmark signs of a cave or cavern tileset to believe they were in one.

 

What are the telltale earmark signs that you're in a cave or a cavern tileset?

 

3. How are you in cave with a sky overhead? Even if you managed a rockfaced roof somehow where are the shafts of light? Cave objects ect..

 

The sky can be completely blacked out, so you wouldn't see a sky. As for the lack of a roof, I can't imagine it being too hard to suspend disbelief in this one (unless you're nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking because you just want to bash a game), given that most people play the game from a more isometric viewpoint and rooftops don't actually exist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

1. So you're saying every server would just have some weird suspiciously outdoor feeling "cave" suddenly appear for when they wanted an elevation? That's gonna fly with all of the modders? I doubt this very much, but they will have to settle for this now wont they? In the end I feel protest will win out or community designed interior elevation tiles.

 

2. Cave and Cavern Tilesets are the earmarks ..Helloo? The community will fast become familiar with the caving system tiles, and suddenly not see them.

 

3. Fair enough for a jimmy rig. I'll probably end up trying this with all of this talk about it.

.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Riftworm