Gee, how funny

[Epiphany]

That would depend on what you ended up sacrificing to do it.

 

I was wondering that earlier. Point for point is 256k of dedicated graphic memory superior to 256k of generic memory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not "generic" in the sense that it's some different form of memory (if that's what you were implying). In the case of the PS3, it has 256 megs of GDDR3 memory for video, and 256 of XDR ram for the system. The X360 has 512 of unified GDDR3 ram.

 

XDR ram @ 3.2Ghz

GDDR3 ram @ 700Mhz

 

It may appear as though the PS3 has a huge bandwidth advantage with the 256 megs of XDR, but XDR uses a 64-bit bus and the GDDR3 ram uses a 256-bit bus.

 

Where every 8-bit gives a factor of 1, 16-bit a factor of 2.

 

64-bit XDR (factor of x 3.2Ghz = 25.6 GB/s bandwidth

 

256-bit GDDR (factor of 32) x 700Mhz= 22.4 GB/s bandwidth

 

The difference only ends up being 3.2 GB/s in favor of the XDR. Yes, it's "better", but only marginal, but when you factor in the eDRAM on Xenos, things swing heavily in favor of the X360.

[mkreku]

Much like the PS3/Xbox 360 - the PS2 was touted as having more "potential" power than the other consoles.  Sony works in theoretical numbers, and not actual specs.  When they saw the 1TFLOP for the X360, they just estimated "2 theoretical TFLOPS" for the PS3.  Smoke and mirrors.

Actually, regarding the Xbox 360/PS3 it's the other way around. This time it's Sony bringing their console out one year (perhaps, who knows) after the Xbox 360. We'll see what Sony can make of that extra development time. Maybe it's smoke and mirrors, maybe it's not. I, for one, do not think Sony used more "smoke and mirrors" than any other console developer. I think the Playstation 2 has managed extremely well, seeing as it's clearly weaker than both the Xbox and the Gamecube from a purely technical standpoint.

 

By the way, it's funny that you still call Sony's claim that the PS3 is stronger "smoke and mirrors", even after everyone from the ID head honcho to J.E. Sawyer calls it more powerful. I guess you are still lost in Microsoft's smoke and mirrors.

Regardless, of the top of my head the best looking Xbox games would have to be:

 

Conker - unsure about framerate, but I believe it's a steady 30fps in 480p/16:9

Doom 3 (runs at 30fps in 480p/16:9)

Ninja Gaiden (runs at 60fps in 480p/16:9)

Splinter Cell 3 - steady 30fps - graphically if you compare it to the PS2 version, it's generations ahead

 

Many will argue that Panzer Dragoon: Orta would be up there as well.

The only game out of the ones you mention that looks really good is Ninja Gaiden. But that's probably because I've seen the PC version of Doom 3 and Splinter Cell 3..

 

Far Cry: Instincts is pretty good looking too now that I think about it.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Actually, regarding the Xbox 360/PS3 it's the other way around. This time it's Sony bringing their console out one year (perhaps, who knows) after the Xbox 360. We'll see what Sony can make of that extra development time. Maybe it's smoke and mirrors, maybe it's not. I, for one, do not think Sony used more "smoke and mirrors" than any other console developer. I think the Playstation 2 has managed extremely well, seeing as it's clearly weaker than both the Xbox and the Gamecube from a purely technical standpoint.

 

By the way, it's funny that you still call Sony's claim that the PS3 is stronger "smoke and mirrors", even after everyone from the ID head honcho to J.E. Sawyer calls it more powerful. I guess you are still lost in Microsoft's smoke and mirrors.

 

The only game out of the ones you mention that looks really good is Ninja Gaiden. But that's probably because I've seen the PC version of Doom 3 and Splinter Cell 3..

 

Far Cry: Instincts is pretty good looking too now that I think about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ninja Gaidens good but I had framerate issues especally in the first person.

 

I keep meaning to rent Instincts but there are just too many other things around (as well as the non gaming stuff I'm required to do).

 

I don't recall Sony ever saying that they had the most powerful console (maybe at launch time, but it was the only console at that time wasnt it).

 

Anyway heres some fun news from Howard Stringer. The plan is for the PS3 to debut at 300 or 400 USD. It's part of the unified strategy thing. If that does turn out to be the case then thats good news.

[Epiphany]

By the way, it's funny that you still call Sony's claim that the PS3 is stronger "smoke and mirrors", even after everyone from the ID head honcho to J.E. Sawyer calls it more powerful. I guess you are still lost in Microsoft's smoke and mirrors.

 

I called their "2TFLOPS vs 1TFLOP" smoke and mirrors. It's a matter of calculating peak performance vs general performance. Nvidia is using separate vertex and pixel shaders on the RSX, and ATi is using their USA. When Nvidia calculates performance, it totals both vertex and pixel shaders running at peak efficiency. When ATi calculates performance, it totals the performance of the single unified shader at peak efficiency. So this means that in order to compare ATi's performance to Nvidia's, you would double the rated performance.

 

PS3:

 

CPU=0.25 TFlops

GPU=1.80 TFlops

 

XBOX360:

 

CPU=0.18 TFlops

GPU=0.88 TFlops for the way ATi calculates performance

or: 1.75 TFlops for the way Nvidia would calculate the performance if it was their card

 

So the PS3 has a total theoretical performance of about 2.05 TFLOPS and XBox 360 has about 1.93 TFLOPS. The difference isn't staggering.

 

That's why Sony is pulling the smoke and mirrors, they're calculating peak performance (when it's not achievable on any level of consistancy). If anyone will be running continually higher TFLOP levels, it'll be the X360, since the entire point of USA is to keep the GPU running at near optimal level at all times. I won't even bother to address fact in detail that Cell will not be fully utilized (due to complexity and time constraints) by the majority of games.

 

If you want to number crunch all of the time, then the Xbox 360 will win in the end. If you want to leave it to the developers, then the Xbox 360 will most likely win again, because of the easier development the console has over its rival.

 

The only game out of the ones you mention that looks really good is Ninja Gaiden. But that's probably because I've seen the PC version of Doom 3 and Splinter Cell 3..

 

When you compare the PC versions, they are inferior, when you compare to other console offerings, they are superior.

 

Far Cry: Instincts is pretty good looking too now that I think about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Haven't played it, nor seen it in person.

[kumquatq3]

Which are the best looking Xbox games by the way? The best I've seen on the Playstation 2 would probably be God of War and perhaps Resident Evil 4 (amazingly enough).

 

Isn't that "shadow of the colossus" game supposed to be pretty?

 

Never played it, but I assume someone here has

[mkreku]

Isn't that "shadow of the colossus" game supposed to be pretty?

 

Never played it, but I assume someone here has

Yes, it's pretty. But it has serious framerate problems.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The difference only ends up being 3.2 GB/s in favor of the XDR.  Yes, it's "better", but only marginal, but when you factor in the eDRAM on Xenos, things swing heavily in favor of the X360.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes and when you factor in the cell it swings the other way. I guess the people saying the PS3 is better when it comes to graphics power are correct after all.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Isn't that "shadow of the colossus" game supposed to be pretty?

 

Never played it, but I assume someone here has

Yes, it's pretty. But it has serious framerate problems.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't say I noticed.

 

Just thought of something you said Indigo Prophecy had framerate issues. Didnt happen to test them on the same PS2 did you ?

[Epiphany]

Yes and when you factor in the cell it swings the other way. I guess the people saying the PS3 is better when it comes to graphics power are correct after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What about Cell? The fact that nobody will take full advantage of it? The fact that the PPE in Cell is inferior to one of the Xenon cores? You do realize that this is, yet another, time in which the X360 proves it was built to run games and the Cell wasn't. I realize you didn't want to acknowledge it months back, but it deserves to be repeated.

 

Xenon was built to run games on the X360, Cell was built with other things in mind. Xenon can do more per instruction cycle than Cell can, so regardless of TFLOP advantages the Cell theoretically has, it holds no other advantage over Xenon. The PS3 has a GPU, it doesn't need, nor require any additional FLOP power from a graphical standpoint from the processor.

[Epiphany]

Isn't that "shadow of the colossus" game supposed to be pretty?

 

Never played it, but I assume someone here has

Yes, it's pretty. But it has serious framerate problems.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't say I noticed.

 

Just thought of something you said Indigo Prophecy had framerate issues. Didnt happen to test them on the same PS2 did you ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow, you're such a liar...

 

Framerate issues in a game with none (Ninja Gaiden) and then you didn't notice framerate issues in a game with known framerate issues (Shadow of the Colossus).

[mkreku]

Just thought of something you said Indigo Prophecy had framerate issues. Didnt happen to test them on the same PS2 did you ?

Yes, I did. It had nothing to do with the reading speed of the drive though (which is the main difference between different Playstation 2's). You'll see what I mean when you check the intro movie of the boy riding his horse towards a huge temple in the distance. It probably goes down to single digit frame rates.

 

Also, in Fahrenheit, in the beginning at the diner, try standing at the main entrance of the diner, looking down towards the restrooms. The game slows to almost a crawl. It's not that big a deal, but it's there and it's visible on whatever Playstation 2 you play it on.

[Darque]

That's strange I never had that happen.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yes, I did. It had nothing to do with the reading speed of the drive though (which is the main difference between different Playstation 2's). You'll see what I mean when you check the intro movie of the boy riding his horse towards a huge temple in the distance. It probably goes down to single digit frame rates.

 

Also, in Fahrenheit, in the beginning at the diner, try standing at the main entrance of the diner, looking down towards the restrooms. The game slows to almost a crawl. It's not that big a deal, but it's there and it's visible on whatever Playstation 2 you play it on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I will have played a different version, although I dont recall anything like that occuring I suppose I was a bit lost in the moment. It's not officially released here till February.

 

Just wondered if it might have been a technical issue of some sort with the machine thats all.

[metadigital]

Yes and when you factor in the cell it swings the other way. I guess the people saying the PS3 is better when it comes to graphics power are correct after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about Cell? The fact that nobody will take full advantage of it? The fact that the PPE in Cell is inferior to one of the Xenon cores? You do realize that this is, yet another, time in which the X360 proves it was built to run games and the Cell wasn't. I realize you didn't want to acknowledge it months back, but it deserves to be repeated.

 

Xenon was built to run games on the X360, Cell was built with other things in mind. Xenon can do more per instruction cycle than Cell can, so regardless of TFLOP advantages the Cell theoretically has, it holds no other advantage over Xenon. The PS3 has a GPU, it doesn't need, nor require any additional FLOP power from a graphical standpoint from the processor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. It's a TeraFlOps NOT a TeraFlop.

2. AFAIK Xenon is a server CPU chip; I haven't heard where it was specifically designed for games (unless this is a co-incidentally named chip).

3. What makes you so sure that the Cell will not be implemented fully?

 

The AMD twin core 64 bit CPU has been out for a year, and the 64 bit version of Windows (Vista nee Longhorn) is minutes away from release; the next iteration of CPU design is for maleable transistor configurations (something like Cell, except the entire CPU can be re-designed on-the-fly in software); and Battlefield 2 (iirc) already has mutiple threads.

[Darque]

the next iteration of CPU design is for maleable transistor configurations (something like Cell, except the entire CPU can be re-designed on-the-fly in software);

 

Hey, that sounds neat

 

What exactly can you do with it?

[metadigital]

Well, instead of having distinct GPU or Audio chip, you can just create one on the fly, as you need it. Sort of like having a single store of RAM and allocating it as needed, only with processing power.

 

That's the theory, anyway: it's still a few years away from production (although iirc there are some prototypes in existence already).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The PS3 has a GPU, it doesn't need, nor require any additional FLOP power from a graphical standpoint from the processor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You did see the demo's of what the PS3 could do even without the GPU didnt you ?

[Darque]

Well, instead of having distinct GPU or Audio chip, you can just create one on the fly, as you need it. Sort of like having a single store of RAM and allocating it as needed, only with processing power.

 

That's the theory, anyway: it's still a few years away from production (although iirc there are some prototypes in existence already).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That sounds rather cool

[Epiphany]

1. It's a TeraFlOps NOT a TeraFlop.

2. AFAIK Xenon is a server CPU chip; I haven't heard where it was specifically designed for games (unless this is a co-incidentally named chip).

3. What makes you so sure that the Cell will not be implemented fully?

 

1. I'm not pedantic when posting on the internet. As long as the point is conveyed, regardless of literacy or proper acronym use the point is done. This is the internet, not school. But thanks for the effort, grammar cop.

 

2. Xenon was also the code name of the X360 CPU and the console (before X360 was made public), just like Xenos is the code name for the GPU.

 

3. It will, by a couple of developers. The processor will not be fully taken advantage of by the majority of the people developing for the console. It will be a similar scenario that the PS2 suffered, minus the market dominating support. The games it gets, except for the few select 1st party exclusives, and the late generation SCE games, will not fully take advantage of the Cell and all of its SPE's.

 

You did see the demo's of what the PS3 could do even without the GPU didnt you ?

 

Showing pretty graphics means squat when that's all the processor can do. Just look at the PS2 demos from before it was released, such as the Getaway. That didn't end up looking anything like the final product. Until actual gameplay is shown, it's all smoke and mirrors, as Sony hasn't proven they can show a scripted trailer and have it mirror the final product.

[metadigital]

Well, instead of having distinct GPU or Audio chip, you can just create one on the fly, as you need it. Sort of like having a single store of RAM and allocating it as needed, only with processing power.

 

That's the theory, anyway: it's still a few years away from production (although iirc there are some prototypes in existence already).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds rather cool

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IBM have a similar concept, currently, with their "server on demand" product. Basically corporations can lease the processing power they require (adding more storage / CPU muscle / web connectivity / etc). It does mean that the corporates need to plan and budget for increases (decresaes) in their IT capacity, and the granularity is in "blades" (which are just servers that are chips on a single plane, and can slide into a host box for optimal configurability and growth, much like RAID storage provides for hot-swappable harddrives).

 

This technology delivers similar flexibilty on a nano/micro scale, and with a granularity of transistors/CPUs, rather than servers and storage.

[Darque]

You've kinda lost me at this point, so I'll just say.... cool

[alanschu]

Were you thinking of the Xeon processors meta? I know that they have historically been Intel's server CPU

[metadigital]

Were you thinking of the Xeon processors meta?  I know that they have historically been Intel's server CPU

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, that's the fella. Xeon, Xenon, what's next, Xena?

[alanschu]

Xenon: Warrior Server

[Gabrielle]

Xenon:  Warrior Server

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A server that will kick ass and take names.