Deus ex Machina: the Will of The Force ...

[Rosbjerg]

2. You've covered a lot of theodicy there:

Calvinism (who are we to second guess God -- but I thought we were talking about The Force?);

Open Theism God is just the most powerful good guy, not omnipotent;

Maltheism God is malevolent or not omnipotent; or

Saint Augustine's moderfied Dualism (whereby the Evil exists and is manipulated by God into ultimate goodness).

And I'll leave FarimirK to PM you over your comment on the origins and validity of scripture. (But yes, you're correct.) 

3. I wonder if The Force is the God of Mercy or Justice?

4. Did the dog make a sound like one hand clapping? Because if he did I think I saw him ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

2. hmm you seem to focus a tad too much about refering to sources .. that's cool with me, and as long as you are doing the work for me .. who am I to complain? :D

"Calvanism: (who are we to second guess God -- but I thought we were talking about The Force?)" .. yes well since we are talking about The Force as a a kind of sentient being, it's normal, albiet not correct, as a western, to assign ceartin Judeo-Christian ideas to the properties of such a force..

 

4. http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/bodhidharma/mu.html

[metadigital]

... [snippity snip] ...

Sounds to me like your describing an omnescient, omnipotent and omnipresent diety -- a God. It's sitting back, with unlimited patience, and helping individuals up to a crisis for them to choose (free will).

 

You've just described the Judeo-Christian God.

 

All you need to do now is garnish with omniscience: The Force knows what you will choose beforehand, and -- even if / when you choose poorly / Darkly -- will be there to help you at the next bifurcation in the space-time reality. (A Merciful God.)

 

Which is fine -- except it is vastly different to a gravity-like force (small "f").  :D

 

Not quite what I was saying.

 

The Force is merely a reflection of life. It is a BIG mirror. It wants the same thing life wants. Its only 'emotions' are those that life has. Its only patience is what life has, as well.

 

[1.] The Force is am embodiment of all that is living. It isn't necessarily alive itself, but is a connection. Since it IS life, naturally it will act like it.

 

[2.] If life stayed single celled, then the Force would have too. But Life went and got a brain, and discovered "Hey, if I run this through an old lady, then she dies! FEEL THE POWER! I can take away life!" and other such emotions and morals. The Force, being an embodiment of life, had to follow suite, and also developed a form of sentience, but it is only a mirror. It wants balance (because it is a more powerful reflection of nature).

 

[3.] As for it guiding you: It will only follow along for the ride. It's more of a cause and effect thing; As you make choices, it 'determines' the eventual effects, and MAY (or may not) 'send' (via the Jedi) somebody to a critical point in the new timeline that was just created. BUT, there are THOUSANDS of MILLIONS of things like this going on, which is why only those that can also control the Force are likely the only ones that feel like they have a responsibility to preserve Balance and Peace.

 

[4.] Now, ask a more-than-average person what their favorite state of being is. Most people (if they actually dig in deep; I've had a teacher that did something like this at one point) will say Peace. Anything else is turmoil, or another taxing state, and can be quite uncomfortable. Nature (all of it) naturally seeks this peace and tranquility, which is also the Force's goal.

 

[5.] It's not good or evil, but a reflection of those that it touches. Each person can see it as something different, based on their personality (either something that can give you power: You'd be controlling the ONLY thing that ALL life has in common; or something that should be preserved and protected: once again, it's the ONLY thing that ALL life touches).

 

[6.] I still think that you shouldn't believe Kreia's reason for hating the Force. It is likely that she blamed it, because her tormentors were (rather coincidentally, I might add) those touched by, and could control, it. Kreia was quite like Ca

[metadigital]

2. You've covered a lot of theodicy there:

Calvinism (who are we to second guess God -- but I thought we were talking about The Force?);

Open Theism God is just the most powerful good guy, not omnipotent;

Maltheism God is malevolent or not omnipotent; or

Saint Augustine's moderfied Dualism (whereby the Evil exists and is manipulated by God into ultimate goodness).

And I'll leave FarimirK to PM you over your comment on the origins and validity of scripture. (But yes, you're correct.) 

3. I wonder if The Force is the God of Mercy or Justice?

4. Did the dog make a sound like one hand clapping? Because if he did I think I saw him ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

2. hmm you seem to focus a tad too much about refering to sources .. that's cool with me, and as long as you are doing the work for me .. who am I to complain? :D

"Calvanism: (who are we to second guess God -- but I thought we were talking about The Force?)" .. yes well since we are talking about The Force as a a kind of sentient being, it's normal, albiet not correct, as a western, to assign ceartin Judeo-Christian ideas to the properties of such a force..

 

4. http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/bodhidharma/mu.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Too many references? Well, I just want to make sure we are all talking about the the same things: if we get agreement on the background facts / statistics / theories, then we are free to discuss them and come up with (perhaps) some new interpretation or master theory. If we spend all the time arguing what Calvanism is -- for example -- then we don't actually get to the interesting philosophical stuff. Feel free to call me on any reference, that's why I put them there (and why it takes me so long to compile responses ... I'm checking the references to make sure they are good enough). :cool:

 

Apologies, it was late and I forgot to add a (") emoticon to that quip about God and The Force. Yes you are quite correct -- my bad, no offence meant. :">

 

MU: great link, thanks! (Who are you calling a cowherd? )

 

Nice hosing down of the Western Philospohical obsession with deconstructionalism; :D I shall indeed meditate to selflessness to feel the disapearance of the "I", and attempt to become one with The Force. But, as well, I cannot in good conscience cease my Western analysis, either, as my Left Hemisphere of Logic hungers too. (And it kind of kills the thread, too. Sort of like a metaphysical Shoe company saying "Just Be It". " )

 

Excellent! (w00t) :cool:

[Rosbjerg]

MU: great link, thanks! (Who are you calling a cowherd? )

 

Nice hosing down of the Western Philospohical obsession with deconstructionalism;  :D  I shall indeed meditate to selflessness to feel the disapearance of the "I", and attempt to become one with The Force. But, as well, I cannot in good conscience cease my Western analysis, either, as my Left Hemisphere of Logic hungers too. (And it kind of kills the thread, too.  Sort of like a metaphysical Shoe company saying "Just Be It".  " )

 

Excellent! (w00t) :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Zen Buddism is a wonderful trip of the mind .. but difficult to comprehend!

since you can never rationalize it, then it disappears, so if you try to grap it .. it slips away, but if you'r not even trying, you're doing it wront too! and when I try to explain it, I have misunderstood it as well .. it's just MU .. and then it's not! :D

 

"(sort of like a metaphysical Shoe company saying "Just Be It". " )"

I don't think Nike (and yes I'm talking about the godess here ) would approve of being used in that regard! ^_^ since her whorship requires, at least in the greek sense, a more physical approach..

[metadigital]

... [snipity snip] ...

Zen Buddism is a wonderful trip of the mind .. but difficult to comprehend!

since you can never rationalize it, then it disappears, so if you try to grap it .. it slips away, but if you'r not even trying, you're doing it wront too! and when I try to explain it, I have misunderstood it as well .. it's just MU .. and then it's not!  :D

 

"(sort of like a metaphysical Shoe company saying "Just Be It".  " )"

I don't think Nike (and yes I'm talking about the godess here ) would approve of being used in that regard! ^_^ since her whorship requires, at least in the greek sense, a more physical approach..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mu!

 

It is a lovely refreshing breeze washing over the mind after disappearing up one's own metaphysical bottom trying to untie the Gordian Knot.

 

Shoot, I forgot that Nike was a Greek Goddess (equivalent to the Roman Goddess Victoria).

 

Now, I must return to my meditations ... "Who said that? ... Who? ... Who?" (Dang, how do you do this without sounding like a blasted owl?)

[The Great Phantom]

... [snippity snip] ...

Sounds to me like your describing an omnescient, omnipotent and omnipresent diety -- a God. It's sitting back, with unlimited patience, and helping individuals up to a crisis for them to choose (free will).

 

You've just described the Judeo-Christian God.

 

All you need to do now is garnish with omniscience: The Force knows what you will choose beforehand, and -- even if / when you choose poorly / Darkly -- will be there to help you at the next bifurcation in the space-time reality. (A Merciful God.)

 

Which is fine -- except it is vastly different to a gravity-like force (small "f").  :D

 

Not quite what I was saying.

 

The Force is merely a reflection of life. It is a BIG mirror. It wants the same thing life wants. Its only 'emotions' are those that life has. Its only patience is what life has, as well.

 

[1.] The Force is am embodiment of all that is living. It isn't necessarily alive itself, but is a connection. Since it IS life, naturally it will act like it.

 

[2.] If life stayed single celled, then the Force would have too. But Life went and got a brain, and discovered "Hey, if I run this through an old lady, then she dies! FEEL THE POWER! I can take away life!" and other such emotions and morals. The Force, being an embodiment of life, had to follow suite, and also developed a form of sentience, but it is only a mirror. It wants balance (because it is a more powerful reflection of nature).

 

[3.] As for it guiding you: It will only follow along for the ride. It's more of a cause and effect thing; As you make choices, it 'determines' the eventual effects, and MAY (or may not) 'send' (via the Jedi) somebody to a critical point in the new timeline that was just created. BUT, there are THOUSANDS of MILLIONS of things like this going on, which is why only those that can also control the Force are likely the only ones that feel like they have a responsibility to preserve Balance and Peace.

 

[4.] Now, ask a more-than-average person what their favorite state of being is. Most people (if they actually dig in deep; I've had a teacher that did something like this at one point) will say Peace. Anything else is turmoil, or another taxing state, and can be quite uncomfortable. Nature (all of it) naturally seeks this peace and tranquility, which is also the Force's goal.

 

[5.] It's not good or evil, but a reflection of those that it touches. Each person can see it as something different, based on their personality (either something that can give you power: You'd be controlling the ONLY thing that ALL life has in common; or something that should be preserved and protected: once again, it's the ONLY thing that ALL life touches).

 

[6.] I still think that you shouldn't believe Kreia's reason for hating the Force. It is likely that she blamed it, because her tormentors were (rather coincidentally, I might add) those touched by, and could control, it. Kreia was quite like Ca

[metadigital]

[snippity snip]

 

[1] Wow, I feel like I am having an intelligent coversation here! This is a little scary...

[2] Sorry about the Ca

[The Great Phantom]

Well, my idea can fall as one...

 

The Force is 'thinking', but it is still to fulfill the same goal as the 'f' Force.

 

Oh, and I found an interesting thing in Kreia's statement: "I hate how it SEEMS to have..." I forgot the following words, but Kreia says SEEMS, which means that even her lies aren't positive. This provides two discrediting evidences:

 

A) SEEMS (Takes it down to about 80% credibility that the Force actually is all controlling)

 

B) KREIA says it (That pretty much lowers any statement down to less than 50% accurate alone.)

 

Well, with those two facts alone, then the idea that the Force is actually omnipotent is taken to around 20-30% credibility.

 

I think that the Force falls between the two varying concepts: A diety, and a THING. It obviously mirrors life rather closely (basic instincts come packaged w/ all the self-preservation thing). Perhaps one could say that life and the Force are simbiotes...

[Darth Flatus]

Most pertinent question: Does The Force have a willy?

[metadigital]

Most pertinent question: Does The Force have a willy?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ahh, young grasshopper, good question. Is The Force Yin or Yang? Or both? Even though the Dark Side is the sinister Yang, perhaps we see now how the animus manifests itself so strongly, counter-balancing the anima of the LightSide Yin.

 

Certainly don't get on its Dark Side, or you're definitely screwed ....

[Rosbjerg]

Most pertinent question: Does The Force have a willy?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ahh, young grasshopper, good question. Is The Force Yin or Yang? Or both? Even though the Dark Side is the sinister Yang, perhaps we see now how the animus manifests itself so strongly, counter-balancing the anima of the LightSide Yin.

 

Certainly don't get on its Dark Side, or you're definitely screwed ....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You should read up on your Yin Yang philosophy again .. it's the other way around .. Yin is the Feminine and darkness while Yang is male and Light! ^_^

 

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHPHIL/YINYANG.HTM

[FortranDragon]

Nature. It always seeks balance! Granted, a very uneasy, easily disturbed, balance, but it is balance all the same.

 

The Force doesn't have any other will than to inflict balance upon the universe (like Nature!).

 

No, it doesn't control people. Kreia never actually said it did, and even if she had, would you have believed her? The closest she came to saying this was to the Handmaiden: "Ah, but at what time does the free will and the Force become one?" or somesuch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's anthropomorphizing Nature. ;-) Nature just is. It doesn't seek anything since it is a thing.

 

Also, the idea of balance had to come from city-living academics/philosophers. If you grew up on a farm or in a rural area you'd know there Nature was in a constant state of struggle and conflict. Balance, like, apathy, is death.

[metadigital]

Most pertinent question: Does The Force have a willy?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ahh, young grasshopper, good question. Is The Force Yin or Yang? Or both? Even though the Dark Side is the sinister Yang, perhaps we see now how the animus manifests itself so strongly, counter-balancing the anima of the LightSide Yin.

 

Certainly don't get on its Dark Side, or you're definitely screwed ....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You should read up on your Yin Yang philosophy again .. it's the other way around .. Yin is the Feminine and darkness while Yang is male and Light! ^_^

 

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHPHIL/YINYANG.HTM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He shoots ... he -- misses as the ball bounces into the waiting hands of the defender who clears it and, with less than a second on the clock, shoots an amazing 60 yard basket to win the game!

 

:">

 

Dang! I was shooting from the hip to intercept the heckling in order to prevent the thread de-railing ...

 

Well, just pretend I said Yang instead on Yin and vice versa. (I never proclaimed to be an expert of Eastern mysticism ... "I know enough to know I know nothing.")

 

 

Dang!

[Rosbjerg]

well I fully expect you to grab the ball from me if I should make a mistake .. nothing like being kept on your toes! ^_^

 

but Metadigital, I'm interested in hearing your definition of The Force! I haven't read all the pages, so maybe I've missed it?

[The Great Phantom]

The Yin-Yang thing only continues a very Catholic idea (no offense) that Women are the source of evil and suffering...

[The Great Phantom]

He's asking us what we think, so I don't know if he has his own defenition or not...

[metadigital]

Nature. It always seeks balance! Granted, a very uneasy, easily disturbed, balance, but it is balance all the same.

 

The Force doesn't have any other will than to inflict balance upon the universe (like Nature!).

 

No, it doesn't control people. Kreia never actually said it did, and even if she had, would you have believed her? The closest she came to saying this was to the Handmaiden: "Ah, but at what time does the free will and the Force become one?" or somesuch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's anthropomorphizing Nature. ;-) Nature just is. It doesn't seek anything since it is a thing.

 

Also, the idea of balance had to come from city-living academics/philosophers. If you grew up on a farm or in a rural area you'd know there Nature was in a constant state of struggle and conflict. Balance, like, apathy, is death.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ahh, another Eastern concept: creative tension!

 

*Lights a bulb in the deep recesses of my brain * ... From when I studied Confucianism ... the creative tension between Jen and Li ... hmmm, just checked some research, looks like that's a dead end. (*Mumbles* Stupid brain *Mumbles*)

 

Still, you have a good point: Peace is death -- the big sleep: when Entropy finally wins and all energy is in the lowest form.

 

Chaos theory tells us that everything is in motion, and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle ensures that we can never know both the exact time and place and the velocity of a sub atomic particle at the same moment ... still, this tells us nothing about the Mind of The Force.

 

But, Jen is a good concept for out discussion on the True Nature of The Force.

 

"... Jen can be viewed as a single principle with three interlinked dimensions: human-cosmic unity, moral-metaphysical goodness and practical-universal love. Jen may be humanity, virtue and love

[FortranDragon]

Entropy: The steady degredation of any material into something uniformitarily stable.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's not the correct definition of entropy. Entropy is the measure of disorder in a system, resulting in a decrease in available energy. There's a reason why maximum entropy is considered the "heat death" of the universe. :-D

[The Great Phantom]

Nature. It always seeks balance! Granted, a very uneasy, easily disturbed, balance, but it is balance all the same.

 

The Force doesn't have any other will than to inflict balance upon the universe (like Nature!).

 

No, it doesn't control people. Kreia never actually said it did, and even if she had, would you have believed her? The closest she came to saying this was to the Handmaiden: "Ah, but at what time does the free will and the Force become one?" or somesuch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's anthropomorphizing Nature. ;-) Nature just is. It doesn't seek anything since it is a thing.

 

Also, the idea of balance had to come from city-living academics/philosophers. If you grew up on a farm or in a rural area you'd know there Nature was in a constant state of struggle and conflict. Balance, like, apathy, is death.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ahh, another Eastern concept: creative tension!

 

*Lights a bulb in the deep recesses of my brain * ... From when I studied Confucianism ... the creative tension between Jen and Li ... hmmm, just checked some research, looks like that's a dead end. (*Mumbles* Stupid brain *Mumbles*)

 

Still, you have a good point: Peace is death -- the big sleep: when Entropy finally wins and all energy is in the lowest form.

 

Chaos theory tells us that everything is in motion, and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle ensures that we can never know both the exact time and place and the velocity of a sub atomic particle at the same moment ... still, this tells us nothing about the Mind of The Force.

 

But, Jen is a good concept for out discussion on the True Nature of The Force.

 

"... Jen can be viewed as a single principle with three interlinked dimensions: human-cosmic unity, moral-metaphysical goodness and practical-universal love. Jen may be humanity, virtue and love

[FortranDragon]

So The Force is just Mother Nature? But where's the plug for my Jedi upgrade? Mu?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We all know that the Force is just a bunch of Midichlorians (sp) gossiping. ;-)

 

There's lots of good stuff in this thread. I've run out of time today, but I'll try to do justice to what people have said on the morrow.

[The Great Phantom]

People keep misunderstanding the whole nature/balance things I say...

 

I give up... (for now )

[metadigital]

He's asking us what we think, so I don't know if he has his own defenition or not...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I subscribed to the traditional philosophy espoused in the OT. That's why I was taken aback by The Kreia Revelation, and decided to bring it up for conversation.

 

The only reason I am persisting with it is that it struck me as a neat plot to have The Force as cast as "The Empire" and the rebellion manifested as the true underdogs, those that had to fight with "bows and arrows against the lightning" (Orson Welles was a dude).

 

As I mentioned just above, Occham's Razor suggests that, based on logic, The Force is some sort of small "f" force, without sentience. (No need for it, so its out, too. Of course this is just building a fit hypothetical model to fit the known evidence, minus the unnecessary stuff: there is no reason to say that The Force isn't actually sentient and scheming to turn the Jedi Council into a pile of poodoo -- that would be a faith based judgement.)

 

So it acts like a big gravity well on every particle in the universe (according to some intrinsic component -- like those damnable midichlorians -- and the "distance for a set point* in the alignment of The Force"*).

 

Every time you take it pulls, every time you pull it takes (relative to said point of reference).

 

This leaves plently of room for Eastern philosphies to assist in the explanation and attainment of true enlightenment of The Force, too.

 

How's that for a definition?

:cool:

 

*Interestingly, this point may be true neutral or some other point, perhaps affected by the initial creation of the universe.

**I'm using "alignment" in its broadest sense and because there just isn't another word I can use to convey the concept: I'm not specifically talking about the one- or two-dimentional moral compass-type alignment from AD&D.

[The Great Phantom]

In SW, there's good and bad, no in between. You're either good at heart, or bad. 'Nough said.

 

Kreia said it SEEMED the Force had a plan for all of us, but once again, she reminds me SO much like Ca

[metadigital]

In SW, there's good and bad, no in between. You're either good at heart, or bad. 'Nough said.

 

Kreia said it SEEMED the Force had a plan for all of us, but once again, she reminds me SO much like Ca

[The Great Phantom]

I've never read Hamlet... Maybe I'll check it out one day (after I wade through the other 15 books I have in a week and a half).

 

Does anybody agree w/ the healthy (for all of us, including many of our positions at work ) comprimise I have suggested??? I feel like nobody is listening... Usual I prefer that, but... :ph34r: