Should Revan Have An "Offical" Gender?

[metadigital]

I really don't care what sex should Revan be. I played him as both male and female and got a kick out of it all the times. I really loved the Bastila romance and killing Carth was priceless.

 

However, I would like to have an especific gender set (male or female, I don't care) just because i would like to see Revan again in KoTOR 3, but since is not likely for us to be able to play him again, he would have to be given an official sex.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You proceed from a false premise. It is not necessary to have Revan's gender set in order for Revan to appear again (look at K2, even though they managed to leave a lot of buggy references to "he" in the she path).

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it just takes a little (okay, a lot) more effort to write a cohesive, cogent, immersive and exciting story that involves all the different threads woven into it.

 

It doesn't matter if the nemesis, for example, is a male or female. Just write for both. Simple plan, a little complex to implement. Writers feel like they've accomplished something, players feel like they have experienced something and publishes/developers feel like they've earned something. All go on to successful, fullfilling lives and the world is a better place.

 

The end. :cool:

[metadigital]

To illustrate, let me quote from Bioware's new Dragon Age FAQ:

 

1.03: What is the storyline of Dragon Age? (Back to Top)

 

For the first time, you choose how your character

[psycho_leo]

You proceed from a false premise. It is not necessary to have Revan's gender set in order for Revan to appear again (look at K2, even though they managed to leave a lot of buggy references to "he" in the she path).

 

Well, Revan's appearance in KoTOR 2 is a rather quick one. I mean, you see him once in the tomb of Korriban and you kill him. He's out of the game. I don't want references to Revan in KoTOR 3. I want Revan to be on KoTOR 3. I want him to talk to you, with an actual voice. To all that, plus cutscenes, for both a female and a male Revan would require a great amount of work and time. A effort I bet neither Obsidian or another dev team would be inclined to do (besides LA would not let them take the time, as they would rush the reease again).

[Eddo36]

Can we make Darth Vader into a female?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First of all, that's not a video game. That's a movie. We can't make Leia into a guy either, but nobody's going to protest, because that's a set story--one person's vision, not an RPG, which is the player's vision. That you would even compare the two mediums says nothing good about your ability to apply common sense to this situation.

 

Second, did you ever actually SEE what's under those robes? And don't you think Anakin is rather androgynous anyway? Metadigital's scenario is all too credible!

 

A video game in the Star Wars universe. And everything in SW is set. According to Lucas, who has the real word over everyone here.

[metadigital]

Can we make Darth Vader into a female?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First of all, that's not a video game. That's a movie. We can't make Leia into a guy either, but nobody's going to protest, because that's a set story--one person's vision, not an RPG, which is the player's vision. That you would even compare the two mediums says nothing good about your ability to apply common sense to this situation.

 

Second, did you ever actually SEE what's under those robes? And don't you think Anakin is rather androgynous anyway? Metadigital's scenario is all too credible!

 

A video game in the Star Wars universe. And everything in SW is set. According to Lucas, who has the real word over everyone here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not necessary to give Revan/Exile an alignment or gender in order to explain the stories of both games. Keeping the genders and alignments ambiguous would add some intrigue and interest to their stories, inviting the audience to go and find out for themselves.

 

And it's not like history doesn't have any mysterious people in it. There are some people who dispute that Socrates was a real person! (All we know about Socrates was written by his students, Plato and Xenaphon, so the argument is that Socrates was a rhetorical device to prevent these two from being incarcerated for heretical views.) There is also a lot of dispute about the gender of Michelangelo; some say he was homosexual, others asexual, still others claim heterosexual. (Not exactly like male/female, but this is only five hundred years ago -- Revan and Exile were 4000 years before the Galactic History was written, and there were few witnesses to their exploits.)

 

And your out-of-context quote of GL (was he talking specifically about the role-playing variations of KotOR, or are you misquoting his comments on the films?).

 

So, it doesn't have to be set, if LucasArts are clever. (And yes, there are a number of interpretations to that last sentence, and I mean them all.)

 

[psycho_leo]

There is also a lot of dispute about the gender of Michelangelo; some say he was homosexual, others asexual, still others claim heterosexual.

 

I see no dispute regarding his gender. There may be doubts abou his sexuality, but everyone knows that he was a man. If he was a man who liked men, women or dog (creepy, I know) he would still be a man ( a very wierd, deeply disturbed man, bu a man nonetheless).

 

(Not exactly like male/female, but this is only five hundred years ago -- Revan and Exile were 4000 years before the Galactic History was written, and there were few witnesses to their exploits.)

 

And your point is? I mean. The society described in the SW universe, even by the time of KoTOR is far more advanced than ours, let alone the societies that Michelangelo and Socrates lived in. And there were plenty of witnesses for their actions. I mean Revan was easily one of the most proeminent figures of his time. I can accept that many people couldn't tell wheter Revan was man or woman, since Revan was always masked. But I can't really understand how people more close to him wouldn't know. Dind't Revan ever talked? By the sound of someone's voice you can tell if it's a man or a woman, even if you can't see the face.

[metadigital]

There is also a lot of dispute about the gender of Michelangelo; some say he was homosexual, others asexual, still others claim heterosexual.

 

I see no dispute regarding his gender. There may be doubts abou his sexuality, but everyone knows that he was a man. If he was a man who liked men, women or dog (creepy, I know) he would still be a man ( a very wierd, deeply disturbed man, bu a man nonetheless).

 

(Not exactly like male/female, but this is only five hundred years ago -- Revan and Exile were 4000 years before the Galactic History was written, and there were few witnesses to their exploits.)

 

And your point is? I mean. The society described in the SW universe, even by the time of KoTOR is far more advanced than ours, let alone the societies that Michelangelo and Socrates lived in. And there were plenty of witnesses for their actions. I mean Revan was easily one of the most proeminent figures of his time. I can accept that many people couldn't tell wheter Revan was man or woman, since Revan was always masked. But I can't really understand how people more close to him wouldn't know. Dind't Revan ever talked? By the sound of someone's voice you can tell if it's a man or a woman, even if you can't see the face.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point is that it is entirely possible to be non-specific about it.

 

Socrates is the father of philosophy. It has been said and re-stated innumerable times that all modern philosophy is just footnotes to Socrates. And we have doubts (albeit small ones) that he even existed. I was merely using this real-world analogy, and expanding this uncertainty to include the gender of the two figures in the KotOR games.

 

And the benefits are:

1. Prevent issolating those in the community who like a female (or the opposite gender to the one that is arbitrarily selected -- and I'll lay a bet now that if one is selected it will be male, which re-inforces the twenty pages of debate in this thread).

2. Encourage people to go and play the games, so that THEY can decide.

3. Add some mystery to the whole epic story.

4. Head off sexist views, like the one you are espousing, whilst pretending to hide behind some artificial ex cathedra GL Papal Bull to "make the stories canon".

 

It is quite possible that Revan and the Exile may be given a fixed gender and alignment. My point, to recap for those with short attention spans, is that it doesn't need to be and would be better if it weren't.

[The Great Phantom]

All right, which one of you 'geniouses' (sp? ) was 'smart' enough to resurrect this thread???

[Eddo36]

There is also a lot of dispute about the gender of Michelangelo; some say he was homosexual, others asexual, still others claim heterosexual.

 

I see no dispute regarding his gender. There may be doubts abou his sexuality, but everyone knows that he was a man. If he was a man who liked men, women or dog (creepy, I know) he would still be a man ( a very wierd, deeply disturbed man, bu a man nonetheless).

 

(Not exactly like male/female, but this is only five hundred years ago -- Revan and Exile were 4000 years before the Galactic History was written, and there were few witnesses to their exploits.)

 

And your point is? I mean. The society described in the SW universe, even by the time of KoTOR is far more advanced than ours, let alone the societies that Michelangelo and Socrates lived in. And there were plenty of witnesses for their actions. I mean Revan was easily one of the most proeminent figures of his time. I can accept that many people couldn't tell wheter Revan was man or woman, since Revan was always masked. But I can't really understand how people more close to him wouldn't know. Dind't Revan ever talked? By the sound of someone's voice you can tell if it's a man or a woman, even if you can't see the face.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point is that it is entirely possible to be non-specific about it.

 

Socrates is the father of philosophy. It has been said and re-stated innumerable times that all modern philosophy is just footnotes to Socrates. And we have doubts (albeit small ones) that he even existed. I was merely using this real-world analogy, and expanding this uncertainty to include the gender of the two figures in the KotOR games.

 

And the benefits are:

1. Prevent issolating those in the community who like a female (or the opposite gender to the one that is arbitrarily selected -- and I'll lay a bet now that if one is selected it will be male, which re-inforces the twenty pages of debate in this thread).

2. Encourage people to go and play the games, so that THEY can decide.

3. Add some mystery to the whole epic story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Don't forget:

 

4. Making KOTOR 3 much more complicated and difficult to make should one come out.

5. Not everybody is a fan of mysteries that are never solved.

6. Star Wars wasn't made to be a feminist charity organization.

[metadigital]

Don't forget:

 

4. Making KOTOR 3 much more complicated and difficult to make should one come out.

5. No everybody is a fan of mysteries that are never solved.

6. Star Wars isn't a feminist charity organization.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I added a fourth point, so you'll have to renumber. You seem to be trolling, but in cae you aren't I will answer your points.

 

First Point. Making KotOR3 much more complicated? Are you kidding?

Check out Bioware's Dragon Age (I'll quote for you), as it appears you can't be bothered to look back over the thread:

1.03: What is the storyline of Dragon Age? (Back to Top)

For the first time, you choose how your character

[The Great Phantom]

All right, which one of you 'geniouses' (sp? ) was 'smart' enough to resurrect this thread???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All right, which one of you 'geniouses' (sp? ) was 'smart' enough to CONTINUE this resurrected thread???

 

:ph34r:

[metadigital]

All right, which one of you 'geniouses' (sp? ) was 'smart' enough to resurrect this thread???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was someone (surprise!) who isn't involved now (so maybe they are a genius). Blame Azarkon, last page.

[The Great Phantom]

The gender should be a choice, and we can argue all day about what gender(s) they should choose to be official, but I've participated in many threads like this and I know that in the end it's just another sexism battle field (with MANY disturbing thoughts included)...

 

:ph34r:

[Alki]

hey. can anyone tell me where i can find the silver lightsaber crystal? i'm starting my third game now and just can't find it.

thanks

[Silvershadow]

And the benefits are:

1. Prevent issolating those in the community who like a female (or the opposite gender to the one that is arbitrarily selected -- and I'll lay a bet now that if one is selected it will be male, which re-inforces the twenty pages of debate in this thread).

2. Encourage people to go and play the games, so that THEY can decide.

3. Add some mystery to the whole epic story.

4. Head off sexist views, like the one you are espousing, whilst pretending to hide behind some artificial ex cathedra GL Papal Bull to "make the stories canon".

 

It is quite possible that Revan and the Exile may be given a fixed gender and alignment. My point, to recap for those with short attention spans, is that it doesn't need to be and would be better if it weren't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An additional benefit would be that it offers more variety for people who wish to play the game more than once.

 

For instance, the first time I played KOTOR2, I specified that Revan was DS female... so Carth wasn't even mentioned at all.

 

Then the second time I mentioned Revan was LS female, and Carth was present all over the place, and I got to see that extra scene between him and Exile.

 

If I were to specify that Revan was male, then there would be some Bastila references. I think it just helps spice up the game, and encourages people to play more than once. Cause god knows if I wanted a repetitive RPG where the exact same thing kept happening, I'd just play Fable again. Sure, it was fun my first run through... but I'm SO never playing that game again.

 

I also agree on the point about isolating people who prefer a female Revan... I mean, yes, I'd still play, and no, I wouldn't be yelling "sexism!" from my soap box, but it would annoy me a little, just because I've come to see Revan as female, and I'd hate to see the whole Carth/Revan romance storyline come to an abrubt end just because somebody decided that Revan was male after all.

 

If they wanted Revan to be male, they should have just made him/her male in the first place and not given us the other option. That, I could live with better than having the storyline I'm used to suddenly be changed.

[Eddo36]

Don't forget:

 

4. Making KOTOR 3 much more complicated and difficult to make should one come out.

5. No everybody is a fan of mysteries that are never solved.

6. Star Wars isn't a feminist charity organization.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I added a fourth point, so you'll have to renumber. You seem to be trolling, but in cae you aren't I will answer your points.

 

First Point. Making KotOR3 much more complicated? Are you kidding?

Check out Bioware's Dragon Age (I'll quote for you):

1.03: What is the storyline of Dragon Age? (Back to Top)[/html]

For the first time, you choose how your character

[The Great Phantom]

hey. can anyone tell me where i can find the silver lightsaber crystal? i'm starting my third game now and just can't find it.

thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's random... Either a shop in some obscure part of the game, or the VERY LAST CONTAINER in the game will have one (with my luck, anyway... Don't know how you'll end up).

[The Great Phantom]

All right, which one of you 'geniouses' (sp? ) was 'smart' enough to resurrect this thread???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All right, which one of you 'geniouses' (sp? ) was 'smart' enough to CONTINUE this resurrected thread???

 

:ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

:ph34r:

[metadigital]

hey. can anyone tell me where i can find the silver lightsaber crystal? i'm starting my third game now and just can't find it.

thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's random... Either a shop in some obscure part of the game, or the VERY LAST CONTAINER in the game will have one (with my luck, anyway... Don't know how you'll end up).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't encourage him!

Q. Why wouldn't this poster use the Search function in the Spoilers forum to find the answer?

A. Because they can just interupt any thread with their question and get a response.

 

Alki, learn some netiquette and read the FAQ before posting.

[The Great Phantom]

hey. can anyone tell me where i can find the silver lightsaber crystal? i'm starting my third game now and just can't find it.

thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's random... Either a shop in some obscure part of the game, or the VERY LAST CONTAINER in the game will have one (with my luck, anyway... Don't know how you'll end up).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't encourage him!

Q. Why wouldn't this poster use the Search function in the Spoilers forum to find the answer?

A. Because they can just interupt any thread with their question and get a response.

 

Alki, learn some netiquette and read the FAQ before posting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"netiquette" ???

 

I think this thread either deserves to die (and STAY THAT WAY), or a few healthy interruptions may actually become necessary... Why didn't the mods lock it when they had the chance?

[Eddo36]

In addition, not having a fixed story line means no one can make a Star Wars boot on KOTOR, and would be hard for future Star War books to mention KOTOR in it. KOTOR would exist less in the SW universe because future authors/game makers would be detered to involve the KOTOR characters and keep true to the official Star Wars storyline because it has so many possible storylines that not one of them can be official, and picking the wrong choice means they go bankrupt. And THAT would suck for KOTOR existing prominently in Star Wars universe in the long run.

 

Unless you don't plan on having KOTOR existing prominently in Star Wars universe, but keep it a seperate thing from SW all together? That would suck for the other Star Wars fans to isolate KOTOR in such a manner.

 

I hope I make it clear so you understand my POV, although you don't have to agree with it.

[psycho_leo]

4. Head off sexist views, like the one you are espousing, whilst pretending to hide behind some artificial ex cathedra GL Papal Bull to "make the stories canon".

 

How was I being sexist? I especifically said i would not care if Revan was male or female in my first post.

 

Show me my sexist comments.

[metadigital]

I'm not trolling, I'm only stating what I believe, as are you. This is just a discussion after all, right? No need for personal insults. You may have points I agree with and some I disagree with. This just happens to be the latter.

 

KOTOR 3 would be more difficult to make because the setting has to either be very vague to accomodate all 4 settings of Revan, multiplied by all 4 settings of Exile, not to mention the other characters that might be alive/dead in the game depending on your choices. Devs got to work double hard to create player models of lightside Revan, Darkside Revan, have 2 voice actors, one a guy, one a girl, etc. It will severely limit the storyline options. Either that or they make it 2 seperate games, like Pokemon red and blue. I'm not a fan of either one. The worst thing about not having a fixed story is on one can make a Star Wars book to it.  As I said, it call comes down to Lucas. LA is primarily a profit organization, but they own SW. It's only fair because they created it. If we don't like it, let's create our own fantasies, no?

 

And lastly, yeah I hated the Marine Corps. But that's just me. Don't ask me about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, I did answer your questions -- I just didn't want to participate in a flame war if that was your intention.

 

KotOR3 (and there is no certainty it will even be published) would require some creative writing to encapsulate the different threads of the previous two games -- providing it is set after both. But that's what writers are paid for -- being creative. It really isn't that hard, quite a few people have theorised some quite interesting plots on these boards, and they are amateurs (no offence -- in the "not their day job" and not-professional interpretation).

 

I think you are making a molehill into a mountain. It is quite simple to solve the dynamics without disenfranchising any of the audience. Which should be an aim of the game (pun unintended), whether stated or not.

[metadigital]

In addition, not having a fixed story line means no one can make a Star Wars boot on KOTOR, and would be hard for future Star War books to mention KOTOR in it. KOTOR would exist less in the SW universe because future authors/game makers would be detered to involve the KOTOR characters and keep true to the official Star Wars storyline because it has so many possible storylines that not one of them can be official, and picking the wrong choice means they go bankrupt. And THAT would suck for KOTOR existing prominently in Star Wars universe in the long run.

 

Unless you don't plan on having KOTOR existing prominently in Star Wars universe, but keep it a seperate thing from SW all together? That would suck for the other Star Wars fans to isolate KOTOR in such a manner.

 

I hope I make it clear so you understand my POV, although you don't have to agree with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

KotOR already appears in the SW universe. Phantom quoted reams of it in another thread.

[metadigital]

4. Head off sexist views, like the one you are espousing, whilst pretending to hide behind some artificial ex cathedra GL Papal Bull to "make the stories canon".

 

How was I being sexist? I especifically said i would not care if Revan was male or female in my first post.

 

Show me my sexist comments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your point of view, whether intentional or not, is sexist. You are stating that -- for whatever reason, and they are hardly legitimate concerns -- characters that people have played in a game, PCs -- who, if the developers have done their job the audience have indetified with and share empathy with -- should be made in your image. That, even you don't regard it as sexist, is selfish, because you are advocating your wants over others to their exclusion. At the least you are insensitive.

 

So take your pick. Are you sexist or selfish, or insensitive?