Ciphers, or what is this and how do you use it 😜

[NobodyHere]

Ok, so… ciphers. I’ve never ever used one because I just couldn’t mesh with it. So I’m trying, as a main, to see if I can make them click for me. Figure once I ‘get it’ I’ll be able to use a cipher companion. My main issues: 

- spells like shock seem good, average casting time, etc. I tried putting an 18 dex just to see if that was my problem, but no. The spell casts quickly with 18 dex naked … and then nothing happens. Still nothing. Calista swings twice. Finally spell triggers and hits one wolf cause the other one is dead. I mean wtf is that 1-2 seconds after-cast delay before the spell hits? I mean it says ‘average casting time ‘ but compared to wizards spells, this seems ridiculously slow? Are all cipher spells like these? (Only tried a few lvl 1s) don’t you have serious interrupt issues when he decides to stare into the ether and ponder whether he should in fact cast the spell he already technically sort of cast?

another example, I tried charm on the big bear, bear nearly murdered me because it took so long to decide to actually cast. (Then antipathic ray’s the cub and killed mama with the ray, that was kinda cool..) but .. that ray is a murder ray. I have never ever gotten a companion killed … until today. Calista rip, death by suicide AI into death ray. Not that she was touching it mind you. But being close was apparently enough.

- it seems many spells are medium to short range (except murder ray, sigh…) so while ranged cipher sounded good (I was even thinking weapon switching to generate massive focus quickly) … is it as uncomfortable to play due to the short range spells as it seemed in my lvl 1 play? Or do I need to heavily invest in mobility? (Talent, boots etc) to keep moving back and forth. (I find when at short range melee are more tempted to abandon a tank for the squishy, and without distance (and with ridiculous casting times) I just don’t see myself surviving , specially when compared to a wizard (arcane veil and shield swap, blind, or prone or or or) is this about right? Or do we get actually fast casting ( ie without the delay of death) spells at higher levels that would work?

- is there a list of which spells are openers/cast able before combat starts? Is that little confuse lvl 1 thing thing as useful as it seems just because it works as an opener even if the rest of it is subpar?

Which are actually useful spells? So far my short list seems to be ,

- shock cause melees are usually swarmed, but casting time is an issue

- charm, cause charming an enemy next to a caster is bound to ruin a casters day. range is (barely) ok. Higher level charm has a shorter range so that makes it less useful?
- death ray, for when you want to suicide or I guess when you’re a front liner and target an archer. Pity it doesn’t work like ray of fire (pity ray of fire doesn’t have this things range though..) 

- tenuous grasp as an opener. Can’t help but think bear thing might have been safer if I started with this vs a cub, then charm bear, and then murder ray it. 
 

- is mind wave useful? I mean.. prone vs fortitude seems fine vs casters but often they’ll be out of range, and it seems horrible vs heavy melee types? Same reason I’m thinking eye strike isn’t as good as it first looks, might want to just pop a wizards blind..? I mean at least it’s 10m ..?
 

any other insights specially from ppl who love this class are appreciated. 

[Boeroer]

I think the biggest mistake of players who try Ciphers is that they use the damaging powers first and foremost. 

But imo that's the worst way to spend your focus.

CC, especially the disabling kind, has much more impact than dealing damage. The most impactful CC effect is mind control (in PoE: confused, charmed, dominated) because it not only "disables" an enemy but even turns it into an ally. It's like disabling an enemy and calling forth a summon at the same time.

If you can have both (cc + damage with one spell) that's great, too. But simply turning focus into plain damage is not (there are exceptions such as Disintegrate).

Instead of dealing damage with a weapon in order to deal further damage with a spell you might as well continue to deal damage with the weapon (and get more focus). Why switch from weapon to spell if the outcome is basically the same?

I am not a big fan of the Cipher's mechanic (weapon damage fuels spells) because the action economy is pretty bad and the focus generation suffers if you fight very strong enemies (when you need the focus most). They are the opposite of per-rest casters: cannot do much in easier fights (if you don't want to rest all the time) but really shine if the tough fights (when they can spam all those impactful spells without waiting for resources to build up). 

When retaliation still worked for generating focus it was the perfect solution for the action economy problem. Unfortunately the devs nerfed that: retaliation doesn't generate focus anymore.

 

[NobodyHere]

Omg thank you! You summed up my main problem perfectly! The only way it justifies no longer doing damage with your weapon is if you can then do massive damage with a spell, which you can’t when the cipher takes a while to cast it (opportunity cost, not doing anything = 0 dps and also tanks burst damage, until he finally casts) , or doing amazing CC, which you need to do RIGHT NOW usually, not in 10 seconds when I gathered enough focus and finish smelling the roses for the spell to finally cast. 

passive retaliation focus would have solved this amazingly well. Pity. 

as always, thanks for the insight. Also, I guess no ciphers in my future lol, I’ll learn to live with my disappointment by having a Druid murder everything with storms

[Chaospread]

You can play a mid ranged Cipher. Blunderbuss are a good weapon at low level, then other ranged weapon can be useful to build focus (arquebuses, crossbows etc... not magical implement). Two pistols as in Deadfire should be wonderful, but you can't 
Whisper of Treason, Mental Binding, Recall Agony are the bread and butter for Ciphers, mid to long range, low cost and fast cast.
At higher levels, Tactical Meld, Time Parasite, and Defensive Mindweb are game breaking. You can play it like disabler, and when the battle last enough, you can put in your arsenal also Puppet Master, Eyestrike, Psychovampiric Shield, Pain Link , Ringleader etc... and go melee too.

Never played a Cipher for damage from spell, apart from Disintegration, the others are occasional spells or an amusement to try and forget. 
And I never trust rays or similar, too much cumbersome for myself.

But with right eq, also a melee Cipher in SOLO can make wonders  

[Boeroer]

One of the best Cipher spells in fights with lots of enemies is def. Amplified Wave. It's a fast cast, causes 8 sec prone (base) and deals good damage (38.5 base) at the same time in a pretty big AoE (4m base radius from the ally you cast it on, usually the tank). 

[Okkes]

Time parasite, durganized Tidefall, enjoy!

[Boeroer]

I usually don't give wounding weapons to ciphers: the Wounding doesn't generate focus and for some reason that feels like a waste to me then (which is a bit silly because it still deals a lot of damage anyway).

For the sake of efficiency I guess (and peace of mind) I prefer to give speed weapons to Ciphers - since that is nearly equally as good as Wounding (dps-wise) but it also generates more focus. This is especially important to me before casting Time Parasite (doesn't take as long to collect the needed focus I mean). 

For example I really like to use Blade of the Endless Paths with a Cipher on Time Parasite (I also like Marking as an enchantment in general, I think it's awesome).

Or just the good old Llawran's Stick which you can get so early. With Durance's staff as backup (with the alternative burn dmg for when you encounter crush-immune foes) I think this is a pretty nice weapon setup for a melee Cipher. Reach allows for a bit more safety, too. A bit of Durgan Steel, a cast of Time Parasite: 0 recovery with dat smacky staff.  The only gripe I have with that setup is the somewhat silly attack animation of quarterstaffs (sometimes looks like the char is swinging a sledgehammer onto an imaginary post in the ground or something).

---

Btw. speaking of Marking: a Darcozzi Paladin with Shame or Glory + Cladhaliath + Coordinated Attacks + Inspiring Exhortation can be a really good wingman for a melee Cipher - one who can remove the struggles in boss fights:

Inspiring Liberation (+10 acc), dual weapon Marking (+20 acc), Coordinated Attacks (+10 acc) and Zealous Focus (+6 acc) combined with Tactical Meld on the Cipher's side (+20 acc) lead to a whooping +66 accuracy boost for the Cipher. This lets him get decent focus against even the most defensive enemies...

This can also work at range with a Darcozzi with St. Garam's Spark or Pliambo per Casitas and a ranged Cipher. You just put them close to each other to ensure the Paladin buffs the Cipher (and not some other party member standing near to the Paladin, attacking the same target). Then ofc. only one marking weapon applies (+56 acc). 

Dual wielding Shame or Glory + Cladhaliath is the only way to get two Marking stacks. Marking from two separate party members on a third one won't stack (although Marking stacks with anything else). 

 

[NobodyHere]

Ok! I’m willing to try again, so.. what do you guys recommend?

melee polearm? Dual wield? Shield? Medium range guns? Crossbow? Bow? Medium armor? Heavy armor? Max dex perception and int? Race? (Doubt elf will work as well as usual even at range having to keep advancing to close to melee.. or even being at melee) 

I’d very much appreciate guidance for dummies so to speak “try to start fights with X” or “let fighter start fight then move in to charm, or grab power X to use once they clump on the fighter, don’t bother with blind if your wizard has it, unless you have a pali-buddy like boerer mentioned, etc etc.

frankly in an ideal world there’d be a let’s play narrated with a small party highlighting a ciphers role but no such video exists that I’ve ever seen. I mean I don’t expect a cipher to ever outperform my wizard but I do need him to justify her existence which is likely 100% my lack of skill with the class and simply being too set in my wiz/druid/priest play mindset. The only other class I did poorly with, chanter, works just fine if you do poorly, just chant dragon thrash and summon and you have decent value

[Andvare]

@Boeroer Whats your favorite party/classes for PoE1 - since you dont like ciphers? What are/will you be playing turn based with?

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Andvare said:

@Boeroer Whats your favorite party/classes for PoE1 - since you dont like ciphers?

For the main character my favorite class is probably Monk. But I also like Barbarian and Druid a lot. Wizard is also cool...

My personal ranking (not in terms of power but of enjoyment) for main character class might be:

1. Monk

2. Barbarian, Druid

3. Wizard

4. Priest, Chanter

5. Ranger, Paladin

6. Fighter, Rogue, Cipher 

1 hour ago, Andvare said:

What are/will you be playing turn based with?

I started a new turn based run with a melee Ranger (+Wolf) a few days ago. 

Edited November 14 by Boeroer

[Andvare]

How do you prefer to builds monks?

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, Andvare said:

How do you prefer to builds monks?

In PoE1 I generally like to optimize them for Torment's Reach (lots of INT and a dual weapon setup). It is very cheap and causes a truckload of damage. I like sabres with this but any heavy one hander setup is nice. 

But a focus on Force of Anguish is also nice (also high INT to prolong the already long-lasting prone). A single War Club of the Mataru can be very good because it's fast and has extremely high accuracy (+38 if fully leveled and used as single weapon). If you cause a crit, the prone effect of Force of Anguish will last even longer (+50%). Combined with high INT this becomes a very powerful CC tool. You just need to make sure that you gain enough wounds since FoA is pretty expensive in PoE1. 

You can also use a two handed weapon instead. Less accuracy but more dmg per hit.  Llawran's Stick (quarterstaff) is nice bc. of reach and speed. Tidefall is very nice because while the enemy flies away and lays prone it still gets damaged from the DoT. 

[Andvare]

It seems you build the monk more as a disabler than a strong damage dealer, do you think they are more suited for this than focusing on damage?

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, Andvare said:

It seems you build the monk more as a disabler than a strong damage dealer, do you think they are more suited for this than focusing on damage?

No, that's only the second option I described with Force of Anguish. That one is def. about disabling.

But the first one with Torment's Reach is one of the best melee damage dealers in the game. Torment's Reach is devastating against singular foes (the one for you target) because it has a 50% crushing lash (lashes are multiplicative damage bonuses, mich more potent than a 50% additive bonus such as Sneak Attack) AND it damages the enemies behind the initial one in a cone. It's also a Full Attack, meaning it gets executed with both weapons, one after the other. The cone procs twice then, too.

Combine the lash of Torment's Reach with more lashes (Turning Wheel, Lightning Strikes, elemental lash in both weapons) and some additive damage bonuses (Might, weapon quality, Savage Attack, Apprentice's Sneak Attack for example) and you have one the most damaging, repeatable single target weapon attacks in the game. And on top it also wrecks more enemies in a cone.

I like to use high INT because then it is way easier to catch additional enemies in the cone. That way I get most out of the 1 wound I spend. 

---

You can also build a strong ranged damage dealer with the Long Pain fists. At some point you will deal the damage of an arquebus per hit - but with very short recovery.

---

A third way is to use a Fire Godlike and stack as many lashes that work with the burn retaliation of Fire God likes as you can (Turning Wheel, Blood Testament gloves etc.). It can reach over 100dmg with the lashes every time you get hit (if under 50% endurance). This goes on top of the usual melee damage with Torment's Reach then. I made a build around that idea:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/87846-class-build-monksterlasher-elemental-lashing-retaliating-offensive-tank/

 

[Okkes]

On 11/5/2025 at 11:12 AM, Boeroer said:

I usually don't give wounding weapons to ciphers: the Wounding doesn't generate focus and for some reason that feels like a waste to me then (which is a bit silly because it still deals a lot of damage anyway).

Yeah it deals lots of damage with almost 0 recovery, but i also like life draining make your melee cipher more durable.

 

 

[NobodyHere]

How do you run your tidefall cipher? Specially before tidefall. So far I’ve tried a coastal Aumaua with 18/8/10/16/16/10 and greater focus and light armour (padded) and he’s ..ok. The greater focus really helps so I can combo dazzling lights from Aloth with mental binding right of the bat. He’s squishy as hell and I need to remain stealth with him and aloth while Eder establishes aggro, but it seems to work.

i can’t help wondering if I’m not doing this wrong anyway lol. So far cipher + Eder + Aloth is … slightly worse or same than my custom wizard (Hurtsack variant) + Eder.
 

do you have a better stat spread? Maybe I should swap dex with might? 14 might and 8 res would be enough for a 16 dex.. or should I just bite the concentration bullet and go 3 res, 18 dex might 17? I’m also not sold on my race choice. I think Orlan’s bonus crit might have been better?

[Boeroer]

8 minutes ago, NobodyHere said:

How do you run your tidefall cipher? Specially before tidefall.

If you have picked Weapon Focus already I would use Justice (Raedric's great sword). It has a "hidden" 10% crushing lash on top of its 25% crushing lash, both generate extra focus. But since lashes have to overcome 1/4 of (in this case crush) DR, the 10% lash can have a hard time penetrating. Against low DR foes it works well though and gives a bit of extra damage and extra focus, which is cool.

[NobodyHere]

No, no weapon focus yet, just playing around with a 3 man lvl 3 party to compare how it handles vs a 2 man party on some tough- ish encounters for their level and party-size. (F.ex paladins with priest in Raedric’s hold, the 2 paladins with wizard scripted no-stealth engagement where you find Durante) 

I am following your staff advice weapons wise. Dual wielding seemed tempting until the hold breaks lol.  I don’t foresee grabbing a weapon talent in the near future either. So far I have planned :

- greater focus (I really like this so I got it at lvl 2) 

- dmg whip or whatever it’s called lvl 4

- weapon style feat (2H weapon, though sword and shield or DW were on the table too. But I liked your staff idea and the tidefall idea) lvl 6

- weapon focus tidefall. Lvl 8. Could easily be sneak attack instead since I have decent perception. 

Edit: Oops forgot veterans recovery at lvl 6 unless I get an early tidefall and it’s ‘enough’ to keep me alive. so bump style feat to 8 weapon focus to 10.

Edited 2 hours ago by NobodyHere

[Okkes]

38 minutes ago, NobodyHere said:

How do you run your tidefall cipher? Specially before tidefall. So far I’ve tried a coastal Aumaua with 18/8/10/16/16/10 and greater focus and light armour (padded) and he’s ..ok. The greater focus really helps so I can combo dazzling lights from Aloth with mental binding right of the bat. He’s squishy as hell and I need to remain stealth with him and aloth while Eder establishes aggro, but it seems to work.

i can’t help wondering if I’m not doing this wrong anyway lol. So far cipher + Eder + Aloth is … slightly worse or same than my custom wizard (Hurtsack variant) + Eder.
 

do you have a better stat spread? Maybe I should swap dex with might? 14 might and 8 res would be enough for a 16 dex.. or should I just bite the concentration bullet and go 3 res, 18 dex might 17? I’m also not sold on my race choice. I think Orlan’s bonus crit might have been better?

You should stay ranged until you get some levels, you can get tidefall with full party around level 8-9 if i remember correctly. Weapon focus soldier covers arquebus, start the combat shooting this will give you much focus to buff up. Resolve dont do you much you may want more constitution from frront lines. Greater focus is not good imho but you can retrain anytime you want. After getting borrowed instinct and time parasite game becomes easy mod. 

[NobodyHere]

Greater focus was keeping me alive. I can see dropping it once I have 20 base focus though. It also helped generate focus (crit a lot on held target) . I’ll see into more con, that would help with the squishiness, thanks.

[Okkes]

59 minutes ago, NobodyHere said:

Greater focus was keeping me alive. I can see dropping it once I have 20 base focus though. It also helped generate focus (crit a lot on held target) . I’ll see into more con, that would help with the squishiness, thanks.

 

59 minutes ago, NobodyHere said:

Greater focus was keeping me alive. I can see dropping it once I have 20 base focus though. It also helped generate focus (crit a lot on held target) . I’ll see into more con, that would help with the squishiness, thanks.

Coastal Auamaua is perfect choice btw because getting proned and stunned too long is a death sentence, you should get https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Wayfarer's_Hide later, its look incredible with your race and gives goods defence bonuses.

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, NobodyHere said:

where you find Durante

Who most definitely is the love child of Durance and Furrante...