Class Tier List - Advice Needed (Again)

[Aestus]

Hello all! If you have the time, I need your advice.  

 

I am a Youtuber who’s mostly known for making educational videos on the tactics of Baldur’s Gate 3. I've recently made some fairly popular videos on the PoE series, including a Deadfire Class Tier List video featuring Thelee. Now I am turning my attention towards making a similar video for Pillars of Eternity 1.

Just like last time, I need your advice. I have just shy of 1,000 hours in PoE, which is enough for me to have an informed opinion, but still just one perspective. So, I am offering my draft of the list to peer review. I’ve outlined the list below. I can't include my reasoning without this post being to long, so feel free to ask questions. If you have any thoughts or challenges to offer, I’d appreciate your input. Please note though that the finished Tier List ultimately must represent my opinion. I will alter the list if my opinion is altered.

The List:

Game Breaking Tier: Priest, Druid

Overloaded Tier: Cipher, Monk, Wizard, Chanter

Bread'n'Butter Tier:  Barbarian, Paladin

Niche Tier: Fighter, Rogue, Ranger

[Boeroer]

My personal list for parties on PotD difficulty:

Game Breaking Tier: Priest

Overloaded Tier: Wizard, Druid, Monk, Chanter

Bread'n'Butter Tier:  Cipher, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger

Niche Tier: Fighter, Rogue

 

Druid is really nice and so versatile, but imo not as impactful as a Priest - just because Inspiring Radiance + Devotions & Prayers. Unparalleled impact on every party imo. 6 Priest party: 6* Inspirig Radiance + Devotions = +80 ACC for everybody.

Wizard has nice spells and great summoned weapons with enormous base and the cheesy grimoire mechanic that allows him to learn all spells without actually spending ability points. Just scribe some grimoires, retrain, learn all the spells from the grimoires before leveling up and you're done. Maximum spell selection with minimal ability picks for spells. Deleterious Alacrity of Motion is nuts in PoE. 

Monk has very good starting values, potentially endless resources and great AoE capability (which is important for PotD). Torment's Reach with a dual wielding setup is almost too good. There's a reason we fear enemy monks more than most other enemy types. Henlo Abbey of the Fallen Moon it is I, the guy who hates to fight you.

Chanter is kind of made for PotD. The longer the fights the better the Chanter performs. Can clear Raedric's Castle with White Worms solo, later there's Dragon Thrashed: damage for nothin' (and your chicks for free), Ogres, Animated Weapons...

Cipher is great in most fights but I find the struggles to get sufficient focus against tough bosses a bit frustrating. The love triangle between Cipher, Chanter and Priest with Defensive double Preservation + Withdraw + Mindweb + Dragon Thrashed is extremely strong though (+100 to all defenses for the party, wow). But still... I don't like that when it matters most the Cipher kind of falls behind in terms of spellcasting. I would put in somewhere in between Overloaded and Bread'n Butter - but since I have to make a decision I put it into the latter (don't really like to play it because of the "to and fro" with weapons and spells). WelI could be easily convinced to put him higher I guess...

Barbarian is loads of fun with the funky Carnage mechanics and weapon effects. Maybe my favorite class (hard competition with Monk). But Barb also suffers from the "not great vs. boss" malaise - and it's not good in the early game due to low accuracy and low deflection (and little impact of the potentially big health pool, which only comes into play later). Limited resources - but Heart of Fury!  

Paladin (especially the Darcozzi) has amazing potential for ACC buffing a single ally on top of the other goodies and it can be tanky without even trying. But there's not much going on in the AoE department except Sacred Immolation. Limited resources.

Ranger is a great single target damage dealer with an animal companion that can hit hard like a truck if build properly. (AoE) CC on top if you wish. Awesome CC against single enemies later on without using resources. Which makes it better than the Rogue imo. Ranger with Persistence + Predator's Sense against some high-priority targets... ouch.

Fighter and Rogue suffer from no AoE and uninspired/lame/tooo expensive high level abilities and limited resources. Both nice in the early game (esp. Fighter) - but the power curve is too flat imo.    

 

     

Edited November 5 by Boeroer

[Aestus]

Thanks for taking the time to help! You opinions are valued as always. BTW, I've been meaning to write, I'm open to doing another Top 5 Funnest Builds interviews but for PoE1. Let me know if you are interested!

21 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Druid is really nice and so versatile, but imo not as impactful as a Priest - just because Inspiring Radiance + Devotions & Prayers. Unparalleled impact on every party imo. 6 Priest party: 6* Inspirig Radiance + Devotions = +80 ACC for everybody.

   

I expect the difference between our opinion has to do with rest restrictions. In resting games like this, I always assume a squad that can reliably clear an encounter by spending less finite resources is better then one that spends more for the same clear. I track this by tallying rests and try to reduce the amount of rests needed in each run. 

Priests are on a tier of their own when you can spam their spells. Druids excel by having a higher baseline impact when not using spells, which allows you to horde spells and go nova in key battles. 

What do you think of that kind of reasoning? 

Edited November 6 by Aestus

[Boeroer]

12 hours ago, Aestus said:

What do you think of that kind of reasoning? 

Fair enough if you apply that "low rest" rule.

But still: Priest's Inspiring Radiance is 1/encounter - and stuff like Blessing and also Devotions can get there as well (with spell mastery). With the most impactful Druid spells (imo) you cannot achieve mastery. But the Druid has Spiritshift which is awesome. Unfortunately it's rather short (for PotD anyway). 

I view resting a bit differently because there's no real limit to it, besides that it can be cumbersome to collect resting supplies in some areas, like the Endless Paths - and I account for that, too. But I don't try to rest as little as possible per se. 

It comes down to this for me: it's so much more noticable if I go without a Priest compared to going without a Druid (or Wizard or any other class). And I don't even use Barring Death's Door and Salvation of Time much. I do not need to use Prayers in every fight. But when I need to they make such a big difference.

In general I was (mildly) surprised that my personal ranking doesn't differ much from yours. I've had so many discussions in the past on how awesome rogues are because they have great weapon dps. Also many players see Ciphers as being "the best" class just because they can deal weapon damage and cast spells. For me it's more like "they have to deal weapon damage" - and that's the bad part.  At least for me. That's why I liked my instantly nerfed Backlash Beldam Cipher build so much... and the Psion in Deadfire.

 

Edited November 6 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

18 hours ago, Aestus said:

BTW, I've been meaning to write, I open to doing another Top 5 Funnest Builds interviews but for PoE1. Let me know if you are interested!

Whoops, totally skipped that part, sorry.

Sure! What else would I do with my new microphone? 

 

Edited November 6 by Boeroer

[Aestus]

Quote

Also many players see Ciphers as being "the best" class just because they can deal weapon damage and cast spells. For me it's more like "they have to deal weapon damage" - and that's the bad part.

I agree that Priests are special, best class in the game hands down. So lets talk about Ciphers next then.

I agree that Ciphers are usually rated highly for reasons I think aren't solid. Splitting their action economy the way they do is a problem, especially when they never really become great weapon strikers, having to auto attack so much is a weakness, not a plus. 

That said, late game they are insane carries. Mindweb is on par with what Priests offer. They can reach unholy peaks for accuracy, which can turn into stunlocks on their auto's with the right weapons.. In mob fights, an Amplified Wave opener is a single cast, no brainer, resource free win button. 

Its hard to separate their value from that of the Priest, because the two synergize so well. But for my money Ciphers are stronger supports then Chanters at the point of the game where it matters most.  Am I missing something?
 

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I've had so many discussions in the past on how awesome rogues are because they have great weapon dps.

Rogue DPS is mediocre in PoE1. Druids out damage them, and have insane spells on top of that! Monks keep up and are also unkillable demons. Hell, even Fighter DPS gets overlooked in my opinion, and late game Triggered Immunity can make some run-ending fights a free win. 

If - IF - rogue's are good at anything, its late game when they can blink onto priority targets, land a few dual wield Saps to blow them up, then Feign Death to drop aggro. Its pretty good, but other classes can do comparable things and more. 

Talk to me about Ranger though. They are the class I am least experienced with, and you ranked them at Bread-n-Butter. What's the reasoning there? 

 

Quote

Sure! What else would I do with my new microphone? 

Great! Whatever you feel up to will be great! If you want to do 5 new builds like last time, I won't say no! But don't feel like you have to! I think fans of yours (like me) just like hearing you talk about the game, so we'd listen to whatever bone you're willing to throw us!

As for time, just e-mail me when you're ready and we'll schedule something. 

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, Aestus said:

That said, late game they are insane carries. Mindweb is on par with what Priests offer. They can reach unholy peaks for accuracy, which can turn into stunlocks on their auto's with the right weapons.. In mob fights, an Amplified Wave opener is a single cast, no brainer, resource free win button. 

Its hard to separate their value from that of the Priest, because the two synergize so well. But for my money Ciphers are stronger supports then Chanters at the point of the game where it matters most.  Am I missing something?

Maybe not. It may be that it's just the way they play that puts me off. Cipher may be my least favorite class for a main character in PoE - despite its many unique dialoge options and depite Mind Control which I usually see as one of the most impactful mechanics in the game. It's like removing an enemy and receiving a summon. 
I was very pleased by the Beguiler of Deadfire - and later the Psion - because they allow for a different playstyle.

But as I said: their biggest weakness to me personally is underperformance in boss fights. To me it just feels that the Cipher is letting me down when I need it the most. That's the opposite of the per-rest casters: those can spam their whole arsenal if they have to. On the other hand: I'm pretty confident that in lower difficulties this isn't even an issue.

But as I said: I could be convinced easily that they belong one tier higher on the list.

What I like about Chanters is that they regain resources passively, can also passively heal while they are singing other chants (Ancient Memory is not a chant like in Deadfire) and "the Dragon Thrashed" quite frankly. With Brisk Recitation and high INT you can stack up to 3 instances on enemies iirc. Casually dealing big AoE damage that targets Reflex while loading up on phrases for some nasty animated weapons or some other invocation is just so sweet in terms of action economy. But it may be that it's just my love for their mechanics that lets me put them higher than Ciphers. But they let me loot the complete castle of Raedric in the early game with minimal effort - that has to be rewarded.

2 hours ago, Aestus said:

Rogue DPS is mediocre in PoE1. Druids out damage them, and have insane spells on top of that! Monks keep up and are also unkillable demons. Hell, even Fighter DPS gets overlooked in my opinion, and late game Triggered Immunity can make some run-ending fights a free win. 

If - IF - rogue's are good at anything, its late game when they can blink onto priority targets, land a few dual wield Saps to blow them up, then Feign Death to drop aggro. Its pretty good, but other classes can do comparable things and more. 

Rogues are pretty cool for solo though, I'll give them that. But I don't play a lot of solo runs so that's not a very compelling argumet for me personally. It's a party-based RPG after all. 

For the late(ish) game priority targets I do prefer Fighters (Charge is so good for that because it does a hidden, instant Full Attack on the target on top of the crush damage) or Rangers - they don't even have to run to the target. Just Twinned Shot + Stunning Shot with Persistence (the wounding hunting bow) and usually they are toast pretty quickly. At least they are stunned most of the time.

2 hours ago, Aestus said:

Talk to me about Ranger though. They are the class I am least experienced with, and you ranked them at Bread-n-Butter. What's the reasoning there?

I value them over Fighters and Rogues and I think they are as good as Barbs (just very different) and Paladins. Not as fun as Barbs (obviously). Not as good as Cipher (also obviously).

My reasoning is mainly that they come with an additonal body which some players just dismiss because the AC is kind of fragile in the early game and you cannot tank with it. But it's like a free summon that has no health pool (never truly dies, never gets injured).
Summons in general are a very powerful mechanic - and having the AC is like having a permanent summon which can evolve and deliver very hard hits: unlike Deadfire, in PoE the Animal Companions' base(!) damage scales with level. They don't get an additive dmg bonus like fine/exceptional etc. like they do in Deadfire. Instead their base weapon damage scales - and it scales pretty steeply. That in combination with damage bonuses such as Vicious & Merciless Companion, Brutal Takedown (this is fixed dmaage which only has to penetrate 1/4th of DR for some reason, also see Iconic Projection which also does this) and most importantly Predator's Sense (unlocked automatically by wounding weapon such a Persistence) leads to some absurd damage numbers for such an unassuming animal. Sure, they attack slowly, but they sure know how to crack open even the thickest armor. Especially the Wolf (and Itumaak) is great that way because it has even higher base damage than the rest of the ACs.

And then later you have Twinned Shots + Stunning Shots which is just great in combo with the high accuracy. As I said above it's great to have for taking out high priority targets such as enemy casters.

I don't like Rangers too much as main character - but they make nice companions imo. If you only use the AC as bodyguard for the Ranger then you don't even need to micromanage them much.

Even melee is fun due to Swift Aim and being able to flank everything with your AC. I received quite a lot of positive feedback for the "Riptide" melee ranger build - I think it just performed a lot better than players expected it would.

2 hours ago, Aestus said:

Great! Whatever you feel up to will be great! If you want to do 5 new builds like last time, I won't say no! But don't feel like you have to! I think fans of yours (like me) just like hearing you talk about the game, so we'd listen to whatever bone you're willing to throw us!

As for time, just e-mail me when you're ready and we'll schedule something. 

Okay cool, unfortunately I have a nasty cold/cough at the moment and my throat is sore. I will muse a bit about what to do while I get better and then I will get back to you... once my voice isn't that of Michael Wincott anymore.  I already know two three characters which I played and enjoyed but which I didn't post as builds.

 

 

 

Edited November 6 by Boeroer

[Aestus]

35 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

What I like about Chanters is that they regain resources passively, can also passively heal while they are singing other chants (Ancient Memory is not a chant like in Deadfire) and "the Dragon Thrashed" quite frankly. With Brisk Recitation and high INT you can stack up to 3 instances on enemies iirc. Casually dealing big AoE damage that targets Reflex while loading up on phrases for some nasty animated weapons or some other invocation is just so sweet in terms of action economy. But it may be that it's just my love for their mechanics that lets me put them higher than Ciphers. But they let me loot the complete castle of Raedric in the early game with minimal effort - that has to be rewarded.

Interesting! I have of course built Dragon Thrashed chanters - its the funnest build imo - but in full party run I tend to prefer Mith Fyr. Lashes are insane in this game, and a universal lash is just too juicy to pass up.  I'll be sure to mention both strategies in the video. 
 

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I value them over Fighters and Rogues and I think they are as good as Barbs (just very different) and Paladins. Not as fun as Barbs (obviously). Not as good as Cipher (also obviously).

You make some interesting points about the ranger! I honestly didn't know about the damage scaling quirks for the pet. I'm just entering Defiance Bay on a run right now, so I'll slot Sagani into the party and see how I feel. Its been a while since I've used her. 

[Boeroer]

29 minutes ago, Aestus said:

Interesting! I have of course built Dragon Thrashed chanters - its the funnest build imo - but in full party run I tend to prefer Mith Fyr. Lashes are insane in this game, and a universal lash is just too juicy to pass up.  I'll be sure to mention both strategies in the video. 

Yeah it depends on your party composition. Mith Fyr is great when you have a lot of weapon damage in the party. It isn't very useful for a caster-heavy group. Dragon Thrashed works no matter the party composition.
A high-INT Chancer can also do like 2 stacks of Dragon Thrashed + 1 Mith Fyr if I remember correctly - at least with the full Brisk Recitation bonus.

There's also a little quirk with offensive chants like Dragon Thrashed: those gain +12 ACC when you use a single one handed weapon in the main hand. And another cool thing is that you can withdraw a Chanter - but his chants will still work. They also keep adding phrases to your counter. When using Dragon Thrashed It's like having an undestructible AoE damage totem in the middle of the battlefield. Very nice trick for blocking chokepoints, too.

That's part of the triangle (Priest+Cipher+Chanter) I talked about before: the Chanter picks a shield with Preservation (+50 to all defenses when prone or stunned) and an armor with Preservation. Since both stack (bc. shield/weapon enchantments stack with everything) the Chanter will get +100 to all defenses if he gets stunned or prone. Withdraw counts as a stun.

1. Cipher casts Defensive Mindweb
2. Priest withdraws the Chanter which triggers Preservation twice
3. Chanter can still sing the Dragon Thrashed (so he's not standing around useless while withdrawn) while he is untouchable
4. Chanter gains +100 to all defenses from 2*Preservation - which he shares with the whole party bc. of Def. Mindweb

I mean you can also do that with any other class instead of Chanter - but it's the only class that can do something cool while withdrawn.

46 minutes ago, Aestus said:

You make some interesting points about the ranger! I honestly didn't know about the damage scaling quirks for the pet. I'm just entering Defiance Bay on a run right now, so I'll slot Sagani into the party and see how I feel. Its been a while since I've used her. 

I'm curious what you'll say.

I liked the combo of Brutal Takedown with the other dmg abilites for the AC. But picking several abilities/talents for the AC naturally leads to a shortage of points for the Ranger - but I think that a ranged Ranger doesn't really need that many abilities/talents in the first place. I wouldn't pick Marked Prey for example.
The Persistence bow is on lvl 4 of the Endless Paths iirc. I would try to get that for Sagani asap. It's the best overall single target ranged weapon in the game because of the wounding enchantment and it automatically unlocks Predator's Sense which is very convenient.

[Aestus]

7 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Yeah it depends on your party composition. Mith Fyr is great when you have a lot of weapon damage in the party. It isn't very useful for a caster-heavy group. 

I don't think that is correct. Its been forever since I tested this, but my understanding Mith Fyr in PoE1 is a universal lash, so it actually adds onto things like retaliation damage and some direct damage spells. 

[Boeroer]

10 hours ago, Aestus said:

I don't think that is correct. Its been forever since I tested this, but my understanding Mith Fyr in PoE1 is a universal lash, so it actually adds onto things like retaliation damage and some direct damage spells. 

Oh yes, you are right! It's only in Deadfire that Mith Fyr doesn't apply to direct spell damage anymore.

Sorry, it's been a long time since I played PoE1. I even found an old post of mine that explains that it works with direct spell damage.

I most often preferred Dragon Thrashed though. With a good build you can put 3 instances on enemies - and the DoT does stack. It's just nice that you can deal "passive" damage while there's buffing/casting/running around or even while party members (maybe you most potent damage dealer) might be disabled. Just a pretty big source of damage from a character who otherwise wouldn't deal much damage himself.

Mith Fyr is great if you do alpha strikes and high per-hit damage numbers in general. The 25% fire lash has to overcome 1/4 of enemies' burn DR - and unfortunately lashes get no MIN damage if they cannot penetrate. So with a "death by a 1000 cuts" approach (Minor Blights+Blast, Chillfog...) and also DoTs like Combusting Wounds, Plague of Insects and so on it's not that great. Maybe that's why I often pass on it: I like to do all that stuff.

With direct damage attacks that hit hard it's indeed very good. It's even better if you have some party members who picked Scion of Flame. They usually can do fire damage by spell/ability/weapon - and that gets boosted by 20%. Add the burning lash which gets boosted from 25% to 30% and uses the 20% higher fire damage as base - very nice! 

Where Mith Fyr is def. better: if you have a low ACC and/or low MIG Chanter. While that won't influence Mith Fyr at all it transforms the Dragon Thrashed into the Dragon's Trash a bit (although the +12 ACC quirk can help). I wouldn't bother with it then and pick a nice support chant setup (like Mith Fyr + Sure-Handed Ila and later Mercy and Kindness or so). 

But the cool thing is: with enough INT you can put out Mith Fyr and Dragon Thrashed with complete overlap. And with higher Brisk Recitation scaling you can even have 2 stacks of Dragon Thrashed on the enemy and still use Mith Fyr without a gap. The party's Animal Companion with Predator's Sense sure would love that: unlocking with the fire/slash DoT AND gaining +25% burn damage for the bites:

 

[Chaospread]

Hi, first of all a wish:

Please @Boeroer put a Shock Druid with cat form in your video builds, he rocks as nobody! Or if you wanna change, at least one druid, they are awesome in PoE1

I'd like to see also the "trickster" Rogue who cast scrolls better than a wizard spell thanks to his high ACC

After that, I'm speaking about SOLO and I've finished the game PoTD, all bosses, with a Druid, a Wizard, a Rogue and a Paladin, if you want @Aestus I can give you link to the builds and the bosses fights
I almost agree with your list. maybe with one exception.

Game Breaking Tier: Priest, Druid

Overloaded Tier: Cipher, Monk, Wizard, Chanter

Bread'n'Butter Tier:  Barbarian, Paladin

Niche Tier: Fighter, Rogue, Ranger

Priest: you have said already all. Squishy early game, the most powerful in the end. Ok in GB.

Druid: my favourite. Spiritshift give power early levels and it is effective end game, some spells are game breaking like Relentless Storm and Avenging Storm, with Nature's Mark, Tast of The Hunt, Returning Storm and Moonwell or Form of the Delemgam as your Spell Mastery you can beat all no boss mobs easily, wildistrike is awesome, they can do damage, CC, heal... no words, very cool class. Sure GB.

Wizard: mmm, it is maybe the best class late game, maybe better than Priest in SOLO, a martial wizard buffed can erase all area, but it is too squishy early game, so ok in Overloaded Tier.

Monk: insane damage, less versatile than druid but very powerful and very funny to play. Ok in OT.

Chanter: I don't add anything. Also it is good in use items while he is chanting, it is versatile, great support, healing and so on but non great damage dealer, so ok in overloaded.

Cipher: Ok, a chiper can beat Alpine Dragon with bare hands (there is a video for it) but no so powerful as a Druid, and you say, focus gathering is a lack sometimes, so ok overloaded.

Barbarian: very fun, but no so "manageable", he needs support most times but it is great versus large number of squishy mobs. Ok in BnB.

Paladin: mmm Paladin can reach so high defenses that it can become untouchable also versus bosses. But it is boring and lack resources, no great damage, no great healing, a little support... ok in BnB.

Fighter: good defenses but not like a Paladin and it is missing resources as well and it's also boring. Ok in Niche.

Ranger: Oh wait. A level 1 Ranger can SOLO the game Companion is a great addition but in a party I agree, they don't shine in anything, and its only goal is single damage dealer, but maybe rogue is better on that. So OK.

Rogue: Eh. I SOLO the game with ONE handed rogue in PoTD. Squishy early, but he has more ability to manage that (you can pass all area with stealth and so on), they are great damage dealer and awesome single enemy killer.
Late game a two handed weapons can prone and stun also any bosses with his high ACC and with We Toki and Godansthunyr. They also can read scroll with high arcana and high ACC and high crits convertion better of all classes. Also enough fun and can achieve mission in multiple ways. I think they deserve BnB maybe.

 

[Aestus]

3 hours ago, Chaospread said:

After that, I'm speaking about SOLO and I've finished the game PoTD, all bosses, with a Druid, a Wizard, a Rogue and a Paladin, if you want @Aestus I can give you link to the builds and the bosses fights

Sure, send them over and I can include them in the description of the video! 

That said, the tier list isn't factoring in solo. I love solo running PoE, but its a different beast altogether, so I'm factoring out solo performance in the tier list. 
 

Quote

Rogue: Eh. I SOLO the game with ONE handed rogue in PoTD. Squishy early, but he has more ability to manage that (you can pass all area with stealth and so on), they are great damage dealer and awesome single enemy killer.
Late game a two handed weapons can prone and stun also any bosses with his high ACC and with We Toki and Godansthunyr. They also can read scroll with high arcana and high ACC and high crits convertion better of all classes. Also enough fun and can achieve mission in multiple ways. I think they deserve BnB maybe.

I'm willing to promote either Rogue or Ranger to BnB, but you say Rogue and Boeroer says Ranger. I'll test them and make my decision. Just to whip a dead horse, the soloing abilities of the Rogue don't factor in for me, what matters is how the classes perform with a team. 

I've played a lot of Rogues, mostly because I love playing Rogues in Deadfire and I also like importing save files. I've mostly been unimpressed. 

[Aestus]

7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Where Mith Fyr is def. better: if you have a low ACC and/or low MIG Chanter. While that won't influence Mith Fyr at all it transforms the Dragon Thrashed into the Dragon's Trash a bit (although the +12 ACC quirk can help). I wouldn't bother with it then and pick a nice support chant setup (like Mith Fyr + Sure-Handed Ila and later Mercy and Kindness or so). 

This is the big thing for me. Since the late game role of the Chanter is mostly to just chant through Withdraw + Mindweb I usually just build them to stack defenses, so Sword and Shield Style, Cautious Attack, etc. For what its worth, I also really value Mercy and Kindness. I'm probably different than a lot of players in that I consider Wound Binding to be a top tier talent that I take early and often. In the end, I feel very disincentivized to build my Chanter to do anything that's actually fun and interactive. Its one of my problem with the class in PoE1. It goes from the Act 1 hero, summoning the spirits of its ancestors to rain stuns and insane damage on your enemies, to uninteractive walking buff by late game. 

[Chaospread]

24 minutes ago, Aestus said:

Sure, send them over and I can include them in the description of the video! 

Yep, these are the builds:

Druid is a Fire Godlike focused on fire spells, abilities, weapons, items and so on - a nice themed character I say
Paladin was built to achieve best defenses you can, just for fun (even if it was quite boring to play )
Rogue was built to maximize hits to crits conversion, an amusement "proof of concept".

These are the links to youtube playlist with battles against bosses and some other fights in some cases:
Druid: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2gBiT5sb44aNWJD8N2h-uL0Cs5AZ3CHa

Paladin: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2gBiT5sb44Y3PJX4bJATWORybXlqC71x

Rogue: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2gBiT5sb44ZPsASkb5qy30uFF-EF2mTT

Feel free to use them as you like and/or ask questions about them, I will be happy to contribute!

34 minutes ago, Aestus said:

I'm willing to promote either Rogue or Ranger to BnB, but you say Rogue and Boeroer says Ranger. I'll test them and make my decision. Just to whip a dead horse, the soloing abilities of the Rogue don't factor in for me, what matters is how the classes perform with a team. 

I've played a lot of Rogues, mostly because I love playing Rogues in Deadfire and I also like importing save files. I've mostly been unimpressed. 

I think you should go for the Ranger. First, Boeroer is always right and he knows many many many more facts about PoE1 than me , second I've experience on PoTd almost exclusively in SOLO and  third, thinking in deep about these two classes, Rogue give the best indeed in SOLO, while Ranger is a better addition in a party as he can kill single enemies, can tank with AC support, can also read scrolls with good ACC while AC can tank, do damage or protect the ranger instead a Rogue need complementary support.
I'm glad that almost one of the two classes will be upgraded

Looking forward to listen to another great "video/podcast" with @Boeroer 's mellow voice! You rock guys!!!

[Boeroer]

I mean if you generally want to limit resting as much as possible it's only logical to use Wound Binding + Mercy and Kindness.

By the way: Infuse with Vital Essence + Mercy and Kindness ist nice for a Wizard who doesn't need wound binding or field triage then. Also works with the potion. 

[Chaospread]

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I mean if you generally want to limit resting as much as possible it's only logical to use Wound Binding + Mercy and Kindness.

By the way: Infuse with Vital Essence + Mercy and Kindness ist nice for a Wizard who doesn't need wound binding or field triage then. Also works with the potion. 

iirc there was a cheese with IwVE with which you could be healed drinking the potion (or casting the spell) just before a combat was over, max heath was increased, combat ends and you kept 50 (or more with bonus) health point.
You can master IwVE so you have it every battle and you can avoid many rests, can't you?

[Boeroer]

Exactly

[Aestus]

@Boeroer So I've been testing Ranger. I'm around level 8 almost 9. So far I feel that I was underestimating the Ranger's damage, but I still don't feel like BnB Tier is the place for them. Here are some of my concerns:

1. Target selection is still a problem for them even though they are ranged. This is because their damage is shared with the pet, and pets don't have an effective way to get onto the back line. In PoE1 this is particularly a problem, because fights tend to be more cramped then in Deadfire. 
2. Pets can't get that "practicaly immortal" status that you need from front line damage dealers like Fighter and Monk, where you can throw them in to deal damage and focus your attention on others things without needing to worry. Maybe this will change with Play Dead though, I haven't gotten their yet. 

So I'm leaning towards keeping them in Niche Tier, but bumping them up above Rogue. 

Edited November 9 by Aestus

[Boeroer]

5 hours ago, Aestus said:

@Boeroer So I've been testing Ranger. I'm around level 8 almost 9. So far I feel that I was underestimating the Ranger's damage, but I still don't feel like BnB Tier is the place for them. Here are some of my concerns:

1. Target selection is still a problem for them even though they are ranged. This is because their damage is shared with the pet, and pets don't have an effective way to get onto the back line. In PoE1 this is particularly a problem, because fights tend to be more cramped then in Deadfire. 
2. Pets can't get that "practicaly immortal" status that you need from front line damage dealers like Fighter and Monk, where you can throw them in to deal damage and focus your attention on others things without needing to worry. Maybe this will change with Play Dead though, I haven't gotten their yet. 

So I'm leaning towards keeping them in Niche Tier, but bumping them up above Rogue. 

I play the AC like a Rogue, not a frontliner. If an enemy is already attacked by a teammate (usually tank) I will flank the enemy with the AC and also shoot at it with the ranger.

You are right that it's more difficult to maneuver the AC through enemy lines. When there's no space I won't do that.

The Ranger does comparable single target damage to the Rogue, especially at the higher levels (see Twinned Shot) and has resourceless CC (see Stunning Shots). But on top you get an additional entity which can act like a "Rogue light". That's my reasoning why Rangers should be higher in the list than the Rogue.

Maybe they are at the bottom of my personal BnB-tier.

The good thing about the AC is that is has no health pool, only endurance. It also knows no injuries. So it is an additional body that will never force you to rest. And if you have a Chanter with "Rise Again, Rise Again, Scions of Adon" in the party you can revive the AC infinite times.  

Edited November 10 by Boeroer

[Chaospread]

On 11/10/2024 at 1:29 AM, Boeroer said:

The Ranger does comparable single target damage to the Rogue, especially at the higher levels (see Twinned Shot) and has resourceless CC (see Stunning Shots). But on top you get an additional entity which can act like a "Rogue light". That's my reasoning why Rangers should be higher in the list than the Rogue.

And how can we not talk about "Driving Flight"? One of the best passive in the game, and it came also early.

Edited November 11 by Chaospread

[Boeroer]

21 minutes ago, Chaospread said:

And how can we not talk about "Driving Flight"? One of the best passive in the game, and it came also early.

Yes, it's great.

But I sort of count it in when I claim that Rangers (without Animal Companion) do comparable dmg to Rogues. I think without Driving Flight the damage output of the Ranger (without AC) is lower than a Rogue's (even if you can attack faster) - until you get Twinned Shot.

[Chaospread]

It's Twinned "Arrows" in PoE1 and indeed as a modal is a game changer. Rogue is a great dps but you have to go melee, you have to spend resources and you are squishy, ranger can achieve such damage as ranged AND with AC as guard / tank.
You can build a ranged rogue but he will be not as effective as a ranger, on the other side I think you could build a excellent melee ranger (once I wanted build one in the image of Drizzt then I "pass" to play Deadfire... but the desire is still there... easier in deadfire maybe ).
So you didn't convince Aestus, but you now convince me about ranger better than rogue.
One thing only... perhaps rogue is a little more fun or at least exciting (you know: can I stay alive once I backstab and things like those... ) than ranger.

[Aestus]

3 hours ago, Chaospread said:

So you didn't convince Aestus, but you now convince me about ranger better than rogue.

Its not that I am unconvinced, just unconvinced so far. It seems like Twinned Arrows is the breakthrough moment for the class, and I haven't reached there yet. I'm close though, so I'll be testing it shortly and post what I think. 

[Boeroer]

54 minutes ago, Aestus said:

Its not that I am unconvinced, just unconvinced so far. It seems like Twinned Arrows is the breakthrough moment for the class, and I haven't reached there yet. I'm close though, so I'll be testing it shortly and post what I think. 

Maybe also try out Stormcaller. It's the more exciting bow, also because of its cool visual and audio effects - but Persistence does better single target damage.