Annihilated in first fight in FS

[Kaylon]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:03 AM, Shai Hulud said:

I don't think it's that simple to say Magnera's Chain is the best armor, and you're overstating its advantages.

Assuming we fight bloodied (as indicated in the build I linked), reckless Brigandine pierce is more like 11 to 12 since the armor value increases as you lose health, and there are other benefits to reckless brigandine like +action speed and +engagement and +damage. And enemies do variable damage types so the maximum value does at least sometimes matter. The Bloody Links are also competitive armor (better even) compared to Magnera's Chain given crimson steel gives +2 armor and blood price +5 all defenses. I do like Magnera's Chain for riveted links, padded underlayer and magnera's commitment, but it's typically acquired quite a bit later given the prerequisite bounties and map collecting, so for most of the game I'd use one of these two I mentioned, and sometimes not switch. So bloody links (when bloodied) gives +2 all armor, +5 all defenses, whereas magnera's chain gives always +2 pierce/crush and +10 fort/will, which overall is just less bonus but could be preferable for builds with low fortitude and will, or ones that don't fight bloodied. 

You can also cover pierce with lance of the midwood stag's woodskin + wall of draining. For arcane knights anyway. And "nor flame" is a cone AOE, so you don't really need your tank casting it. Also I'm not convinced +4 slash/pierce/shock/burn that requires spent resources is better than iron wheel which does not, particularly since an FF/SG can heal itself so rapidly, but I agree heralds make good tanks. 

The point was the herald is able to achieve better melee AR (which is what matters because you encounter all of them in almost any fight) than the votary, the resources are irelevant here... In practice the herald can do very well just with Magnera's Chain and doesn't have to spend any resource or cast any buff.  In a party the herald also provides more support and can carry easily his companions easily from the start to the end, compared to the votary/arcane knight who are more solo centered.

Magnera's Chain can be obtained very early if you desire but, until then, Devil of Caroc Breastplate/Patinated Plate are superior to anything else. With brigandines I wouldn't bother unless I can cover the pierce weakness (or else you feel like wearing robes against ranged enemies) and the Bloody Links is a very bad armor overall, not even worth upgrading in my book because when you get it you don't want to be bloodied at all and latter it becomes obsolete.

Regarding the Reckless Brigandine, it requires 4+ enemies engaged just to compensate the slower recovery over medium armor. It's very good for berserkers because you can also monitor their health at any time based on their armor, but for a thank who rarely gets bloodied there are armors with more desirable bonuses. Nomad's Brigandine is much more desirable because +10 deflection and immunity to disengagement.

[Shai Hulud]

On 6/13/2023 at 1:28 AM, Kaylon said:

The point was the herald is able to achieve better melee AR (which is what matters because you encounter all of them in almost any fight) than the votary, the resources are irelevant here... In practice the herald can do very well just with Magnera's Chain and doesn't have to spend any resource or cast any buff.  In a party the herald also provides more support and can carry easily his companions easily from the start to the end, compared to the votary/arcane knight who are more solo centered.

Okay now you're saying the herald doesn't need the ability you previously said makes it the second best tank. If we're going down that line of thinking, FF/SG does not need armor at all.

And I never made the argument heralds aren't good in parties. 

On 6/13/2023 at 1:28 AM, Kaylon said:

Magnera's Chain can be obtained very early if you desire but, until then, Devil of Caroc Breastplate/Patinated Plate are superior to anything else. With brigandines I wouldn't bother unless I can cover the pierce weakness (or else you feel like wearing robes against ranged enemies) and the Bloody Links is a very bad armor overall, not even worth upgrading in my book because when you get it you don't want to be bloodied at all and latter it becomes obsolete.

Very early? Not really. Maybe if you could pickpocket the maps but I'm pretty sure you can't (checked with Torkar, can't). But it's a pretty hard series of fights for lower level groups. Also requires bad pathing which may or may not be an issue. 

I did say bloody links assuming you fight bloodied... but even not it isn't as if the bonuses are irrelevant. Your armor at low health is more relevant than armor at high health, provided you can't be one-shot. Say you get penetrated at 20 armor, so you're tanking and taking a bit of damage, once blood price + crimson chain kicks in that may be enough you no longer lose health faster than you can gain it. There are other abilities and items that benefit from being bloodied, particularly relevant for tanks is Akola's Apex Ward which gives +10 accuracy for blood rage (and +1 armor, +3 deflection always), and for arcane knights llengrath's safeguard (plus blood sacrificing to bloodied replenishes spells). There's also fire godlike, death godlike bonuses, etc.

Devil of Caroc BP is great for a lot of builds but not all of them. Patinated Plate is fine if you don't care about the recovery time malus. I just think you're really simplifying things saying X armor is superior, the end. 

Why do bloody links become obsolete in your opinion? Assume this is on a character that fights bloodied so bonuses are active. 

On 6/13/2023 at 1:28 AM, Kaylon said:

Regarding the Reckless Brigandine, it requires 4+ enemies engaged just to compensate the slower recovery over medium armor. It's very good for berserkers because you can also monitor their health at any time based on their armor, but for a thank who rarely gets bloodied there are armors with more desirable bonuses. Nomad's Brigandine is much more desirable because +10 deflection and immunity to disengagement.

Well for a tank I don't think getting that much engagement is much of an issue, especially for solo builds, but even in parties usually not a problem unless you have multiple tanks.  There are exceptions of course like v Dorudugan, but you can switch armor for specific fights, not like you're married to it.

Disagree about Nomad's Brigandine in general, though for builds that want immunity to disengagement it's obviously good.

But it doesn't give +10 deflection, as I'm sure you know...If you're near allies, you get +5 deflection (with the horde) and you can pick +5 deflection vs melee or +5 deflection vs ranged (head/tail of the column), but this is not the same as +10 deflection. It's a conditional +5 deflection and a limited +5 deflection.

My point is that best armor is build specific, and all I did to prompt all this was answer a question regarding highest attainable armor for two builds.