[4.0.0] What's the point of the bellowing duration?

[thelee]

I've been doing a lot of tests to understand the mechanics of the new subclasses more thoroughly, and, I think there are some possible issues with the chanter.

 

It basically boils down to "why does it matter that the bellower's +PL buff has a duration?"

 

From my testing, virtually no chant gets any PL scaling (I didn't test them all, but I tested a representative slice covering all the different "types" of chants). So the only thing that the bellower's chanter-specific +PL bonus buff actually influences are invocations. And the bellower buff duration is irrelevant for invocations! Because you get the +PL bonus on the invocation you use it with, so the fact that the +PL effect lingers doesn't seem to matter. And as far as I can tell, because chants aren't influenced by PL, and the +PL bonus is keyworded/limited to just chanter effects, it actually doesn't affect anything else in the game (e.g. potions, scrolls, bombs, abilities from a multiclass).

 

Relatedly, chants do get scaling effects, but they seem to be based on a chanter-specific character level-based scaling. E.G. The Dragon Thrashed, or Ancient Memory, etc will all get stronger effects, but the +% bonus on them are based on your character level, not on any PL. Similarly, The Fox chant, the anti-concentration chant, etc all get +1 accuracy per character level above 1. And then just straight-up buff chants get no effect at all. Is this intended? Because if so, it's a very peculiar, chanter-specific type of scaling, and it also means that the bellower's +PL buff has no sway over them.

 

I don't think it's relevant, but in case devs want to look at my test game: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wvsib72ett937vf/AAB7X3XOkz6bPOcIL8Wvk3KJa?dl=0

 

EDITed to add: it seems like at the very least that chanter chants should scale normally with PL (though this will hurt their accuracy a bit), but this still leaves the bellower buff duration as something of a mystery, because even with a stupidly high intellect, the +PL would only manage to affect two chants. Perhaps the bellower effect should provide +1 PL/phrase on the invocation, and then have its own "linger" that provides a generic +.5 or lower PL/phrase for a short duration.  At that point, at least the bellower buff would have multiclassing or consumable utility.

Edited December 18, 2018 by thelee

[Frak]

*Bump for great justice*

 

I assume that the bellower buff duration is supposed to do something with uttered phrases, but it seems to do nothing. Can a dev explain what the idea behind the ability is? 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Frak

[thelee]

*Bump for great justice*

 

I assume that the bellower buff duration is supposed to do something with uttered phrases, but it seems to do nothing. Can a dev explain what the idea behind the ability is? 

 

 

An added wrinkle is that the way the bellower buff works, it appears the moment you start casting an invocation, which technically means that you can cancel your invocation and still benefit from it (though this is irrelevant because only invocations benefit from it currently).

 

But this means that the "linger" effect of a bellower invocation is actually significantly shorter if you use a slower-casting invocation (like a summon) because much of its duration will be wasted while you're busy casting. Why??? What's the intent of all this?

Edited January 1, 2019 by thelee

[TheWeaver]

TBH at +1 PL per phrase the bump is nice even if it is only for a single invocation -- not sure it is worth the trade of both the reduced chant radius *and* dumping all phrases, but it isn't horrible.  I actually see what they were going for with the later disad since you basically put all your power behind each invocation.  Maybe if instead of the useless +PL linger it briefly increased chant radius after an invocation.

 

I agree that in its current incarnation, it is just confusing (my guess is that the designer thought the PL increase would benefit chants in some way that it simply doesn't).

[Frak]

I like the concept of the subclass. And you do bellow with force.

 

It's just the linger that makes no sense in its current shape. I expect it will be patched to do *something*

[thelee]

yeah, bellower can be condtiionally pretty good (that eld nary twister invocation with +7 PL is pretty baller). it's just that the linger effect of the bellower buff makes no sense in its current form - it literally does nothing.

[Frak]

*Bump*

 

This issue persists in 4.1.

[Boeroer]

Did you try to increase its duration with Wall of Draining or Salvation of Time and then check if the PL boost stacks with the of a following invocation? 

 

Because if that works...  please hush!  

[Frak]

*RAGE!*

 

Also, use blunderbuss modal when running Forbidden Fist and remember to step in dog**** for added affliction. Clearly Working as intended! 

 

*sigh*

[thelee]

Did you try to increase its duration with Wall of Draining or Salvation of Time and then check if the PL boost stacks with the of a following invocation? 

 

Because if that works...  please hush!

 

I actually did do duration-extending tricks. The bellower is probably the only class in the game where the moment you start casting something happens, in this case any previous bellower +PL buff is immediately replaced by a new one based on the phrase count you have when casting the new invocation. So it literally has no impact for invocation purposes that the bellower buff has a duration.

 

Quite possibly the reason why we're not getting much of a response is that as I hypothesize elsewhere, this could just be an implementation detail--it's only intended for invocations to get a boost, but the only way to get it to work is a buff that appears instantly on cast-start, and the buff has to last a short amount of time to make sure it covers the gamut of invocation casting times. But why even mention its duration in the subclass descriptions then?

[Boeroer]

I finally know why the buff has a duration: cast Eld Nary's Curse and you know why. This invocation takes some time to apply all its jumps and often the Bellower's bonus expires before all jumps take place. You will notice a drop of dmg. If it didn't have any duration I doubt that even the first hit would have any bonus.