Fluff
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Posts posted by Fluff
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Why did I never see this thread before?
... It rolled high on its Stealth check? *shrug*
Please never stop being a Punsmith. You add so much color to these forums.
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The PC is more popular than ever?
Very much so.
A lot of the credit can of course go to things like Steam.
But also the simple fact that certain genres just can't work on anything other than a PC.
A calculator can handle a platformer, but cRPGs are a good example.. I wouldn't envy console users at all if they got ports of them. Have fun playing something that complex with a controller.
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If you need kickstarter to fund your product, then it's not a product that has great mainstream appeal.
Or it's just a product that publishers weren't willing to invest in and we all know that publishers rarely get it right.
Unfortunately, they do actually.
If you've got 12 minutes this video explains it a lot better in more depth.
But, long story short. Games like Battlefield and games with 5th and 6th installments are what sells the best. When risks are taken, they rarely pay off for the people putting money into them, and even when they do only marginally compared to these "blockbuster games". Only to become a cult classic 20 years later.
Even classic franchises like Mario aren't safe from this, Galaxy, Sunshine, and Yoshi's Island despite being regarded as practically masterpieces now are 3 of the worst selling Mario games in history, while New Super Mario Bros.. an unoriginal rehash is one of the best selling ever.
Basically, taking outside of the box risks in the video game industry just isn't a smart idea unless you've got the money to back up that risk.. and RPGs (of any genre) are no exception to this.
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When DA2 came out, it got rave reviews from Journalists. It still has an 82 rating on metacritic.
When ME3 came out it got rave reviews by Journalists. It still has an 89 rating on metacritic.
What I get from that is that Journalists don't always have a good read on what gamers will like.
I couldn't agree more. 'Pillars of Eternity' is our chance to show the RPG gaming industry they are headed the wrong way, or at least that more games addressed to mature audiences are released. There should be more titles like Baldur's Gate I&II, Fallout I&II, Planescape: Torment and I really hope 'Pillars of Eternity' imminent huge success is going to send a loud message to producers.
As much as I, and probably every single person here wants that. I honestly highly doubt it will go far past a mild success or carving its own niche.
A large part of the gaming audience is still young people, and I don't mean young adult, but children and teenagers. PoE is not the kind of game they want, even many people around my age (younger 20s) have absolutely no interest in these old format of RPGs. Your general audience finds them needlessly hard and complicated, and many just plain don't like the isometric style. Almost every single one of my gamer friends love Fallout 3 and NV for example, but thinks FI&II are awful crap and glad it's first person now.
I understand that Fluff, all I'm saying is that despite that fact, old-school cRPG style based heavily on narrative, triggering imagination rather than graphic visuals and tactical combat need not disappear from the market, especially when the fans of such games can amass 5 MIL USD for the production of such a game.Even more so when the majority of the people bought a digital copy of the game for 25$, like I did, yet still such a grand amount of cash was raised. Such games can easily be released at full retail price. The community exists and is more than willing to buy such games.It hasn't disappeared from the market. It's just a much much much smaller part of the market, there's been a decent amount of games over recent years attempting to "revive" or hearken back to the old days though, it's far from dead.
What it has made from the Kickstarer though, sadly means almost nothing to the actual market.. as can be seen by a large majority of other successful Kickstarters. I don't say this to be negative, just to be realistic as while a revival of the genre on a grand scale is of course possible, I also think it's overly optimistic. Many niche things get amazing funding from Kickstarter to go on and do...nothing really, they may receive mild success but that's about the extent of it. There have been exceptions, but not that many.
Do I want to see it become a great retail seller and the next BG? Of course. Do I think it will happen though? Honestly, no.
I just don't think it's what your average consumer wants, we are a small community with an unpopular choice/opinion in game.
I don't mean to mislead though, this isn't what I want to happen though. I hope when the game sees a release I can eat these words.
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When DA2 came out, it got rave reviews from Journalists. It still has an 82 rating on metacritic.
When ME3 came out it got rave reviews by Journalists. It still has an 89 rating on metacritic.
What I get from that is that Journalists don't always have a good read on what gamers will like.
I couldn't agree more. 'Pillars of Eternity' is our chance to show the RPG gaming industry they are headed the wrong way, or at least that more games addressed to mature audiences are released. There should be more titles like Baldur's Gate I&II, Fallout I&II, Planescape: Torment and I really hope 'Pillars of Eternity' imminent huge success is going to send a loud message to producers.
As much as I, and probably every single person here wants that. I honestly highly doubt it will go far past a mild success or carving its own niche.
A large part of the gaming audience is still young people, and I don't mean young adult, but children and teenagers. PoE is not the kind of game they want, even many people around my age (younger 20s) have absolutely no interest in these old format of RPGs. Your general audience finds them needlessly hard and complicated, and many just plain don't like the isometric style. Almost every single one of my gamer friends love Fallout 3 and NV for example, but thinks FI&II are awful crap and glad it's first person now.
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I'll still definitely play it, and hopefully enjoy it though.
Because as a fairly poor early twenties kid (who really needs to stop throwing hundreds of dollars at games that aren't even out yet) I can't afford to not play it after backing it.
Despite my personal negativity towards the choice, I hope I'm wrong though. I want to enjoy the game.
I'm glad of that. Really. And, to be clear, it is not at all my intention to berate you. I just hate to see people dread something that they think is all but hopeless, for a pretty good duration, only to ultimately be surprised by quality and enjoyment that they didn't even really think was a possibility at all.
It may be weird of me, but I try to present those potentialities and provide some amount of encouragement to hold them in consideration (where you might not have, before, for very valid, human reasons), just so that you don't spend the time period between now and getting your hands on the game thinking "crap, I probably blew $125 on something I can not, at all, be excited about." Because, I know that feeling sucks.
Ideally, we can all have some amount of hope for something beyond a worst-case scenario, rather than a "I'm just probably going to not-enjoy this much" mindset the whole time. I just try to share the hope, haha.
Oh it's okay, I completely understand where you are coming from.
It's why I try to find somewhat of a middle ground, I'm not going to lie and pretend I'm happy about some of the choices they've made with the game.. but like you said, there's no point in just spending months bummed over something that as you said may end up being better than expected, or even amazing.
Ultimately as long as the story, characters, and lore is as good as they are hyping it to be (7 novellas with the game is kind of insane) I'll be satisfied "enough" in all honesty, because that's a very large portion of why I chose to support it. Id' just like the game play that matches that story to just well..not suck if possible.
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You do make some good points, and you're right it's not really fair of me to blame the entire system because of the way a single genre typically uses it. It's just a twitch reaction I suppose, after pouring what has probably been thousands of hours into an endless number of JRPGs over my life it's the first thing to pop into my mind when you say "Turn based".
I'm also still just a little bitter over that being one less new RTwP game that I get to play, it's my own fault of course but I just kind of assumed that's what it would be.
I'm still interested in the game, maybe just not limited edition collector's edition interested like I initially was.
I'll still definitely play it, and hopefully enjoy it though.
Because as a fairly poor early twenties kid (who really needs to stop throwing hundreds of dollars at games that aren't even out yet) I can't afford to not play it after backing it.
Despite my personal negativity towards the choice, I hope I'm wrong though. I want to enjoy the game.
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Speaking of other kickstarted games. This campaign fills me with great joy:
I enjoyed Isle of Bxnes on my tablet, so I know they are capable of making a game that is at least decent.
I only wish there was more in the way of physical rewards. The book is cool and all, but I'd like a physical copy of the game itself.
I don't blame people for not being fans of turn-based games. I like turn-based combat, and there are still a lot of examples I'm not very fond of. I feel like it's overdue for a make-over.
That being said, I genuinely believe that T:ToN's combat will surprise us all. Mainly because it won't be as simple as just combat. The simpler the component that's being broken up into turns, the slower everything seems, because the less you're accomplishing each turn. But, there'll be a LOT more potential represented by each turn in that game. And, hopefully, they'll do some very interesting stuff with the whole turn-based aspect, to make it not as clunky or rigid as a lot of other games have been.
Only time will tell, I suppose, but, from what they've said regarding their approach, it sounds like it'll be pretty exciting, really.
I will admit that their explanation of the hows and whys made me less sad that I thew so much money at them, but I'm still skeptical.
It's not so much that I hate turn based combat as it is that I'm simply sick of it, before I got a bit older and learned about the other forms of rpgs I played jrpgs to death, and back to life, and then death again.
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And then turn to anguish when they made it turn-based.
Nope, I sure too am glad I didn't back it...
Shut up.. You're making me sad. :/
I backed it, and when they later decided to release a poll for RTwP or TB and TB won.. well, yeah..
I mean. I'm still going to play it, I feel like I have to play a game I backed for $125. I just don't really expect to like it as much now.
I will admit that like many others, I was pretty much suckered in with the "Torment" name.
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Rain was in BG, so that seems likely. Perhaps they are going to use that water level altering technology for heavy rain?
Fog might be more of a challenge because of its varying volumetric properties. That would probably be the most interesting from a game-play perspective, since it should impact your detection radius.
Possibly they could do wind by varying the plant/tree animations and altering smoke effects? That could be visually interesting for a gusty environment like a mountain pass or a coastal area.
A variable snow covering might be implemented by blending in a sequence of graphical overlays, but that would require extra artwork. Perhaps just for a mountainous area? It might not be worth the cost.
Fogs been confirmed, but I'm not sure about wind. That would definitely be cool even if it is minor.
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There will be both in the game. You can see weather in the official trailer actually.
and they showed a day and night cycle at some other point.
Edit :
Trailer -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKoDTzea79Y
Water/Trees/Day & Night -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUleDEFkUtE
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In other words, you are generally speaking in favour of some sort of limitation on your product, whatever it may be. Because you believe it will stop unsolicited sales and theft. You have no real concern for the actual implementation of the limitation, or whether or not it's actually legal. It simply must be done because of brutes and proles who cannot be trusted to not steal the chair from under your bum.
Or, to put it simply, you want to have drm in the release as a badge of honor for paying, real, customers. "It's an inconvenience, but I nevertheless feel superior about it!".
The ones who do not are "internet hippies".
...
Say - remind me again why I haven't moved to a cabin in the mountains with no electricity or contact with the outside world.
My internet hippie remark was just a joke really. It wouldn't be a wrong label, but I don't go around touting that I'm an internet hippie.. in part because it'd probably sound really ridiculous.
But yes, the general defense for DRM by most people as is simple as you put it. "What I'm doing might technically be illegal, but you probably wont get caught.. so who cares?" or in some cases, basically a badge of honor. I can't argue with the first one on a theoretical level.. because it is pretty much true.. you probably wont. However, I personally like to not break laws if possible even if I don't like them.
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On the original topic on DRM. If Obisidan and paradox make the game tied to steam keys, I don't see myself grumbling to much.
I personally just think people grumble about Steam DRM due to inertia.
There's a lot of us though who won't buy a game that has DRM period though.
Which is why I end up not owning many modern PC games that aren't indie.
If I can't feel like I genuinely own what I purchase I don't want it, and I can't feel that way with DRM.
If they sell the game through Steam with DRM, I don't care.. but if that was the only way to get it? I'd request my money back.
I used to think we could own software too and was concerned about DRM, and then I went to law school...
Seriously though, the whole DRM v. no-DRM fight was lost decades ago when it was decided that the best way to sell software was through licensing. The software liscense you agree to when installing pretty much any program is at its core managing your "digital" rights. There are more restictive ones and less restrictive ones, but all of them limit your rights in the way you use the software.
Dunno what nation you live in, or what law school you went to, but if it's in the U.S. you were misinformed if you think it's that black and white on the side of the you never own your software licensing folks. Different nations have different laws but in the U.S. the first sale doctrine still applies, and Sony v Universal is still precedent, though there are multiple lawsuits going through the pipes to try and circumvent it as well as to try and protect it, largely due to the DMCA (an abomination of a law and horribly misinformed on a number of levels, not just this issue). The 9th circuit has been fairly anti first sale doctrine and pro silicon valley/Seattle on this (no wonder really) but not entirely, while the other circuits are more mixed.
Regardless, there are some folks who buy into it the idea you don't own the software you buy, and some folks who absolutely won't.
Unless it's open source you will never truly own your software the way you own most of your physical goods. Trying to claim anything else is just ignorant, but it's effective because most people never question it or don't care.
If I buy a chair, I can paint it, modify it, smash it into little pieces, give it to/sell it to someone else if I feel like it, attempt to recreate it.. whatever I want. Because I bought it.
If I buy software, I can do exactly what they tell me I can do with it and absolutely nothing else (legally) and usually many steps are taken to help make sure you can't do anything they don't want you doing, or at least make it difficult.. I don't really call that owning something, it's closer to renting.
So I'd have to disagree with you, and say it is that black and white.
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I don't know what impression we give you but we have a lot of 20 something people here, it's just a very refined and aged 20 something.
I didn't mean to make it sound like I'm the only one, I just know that..especially from the Pillars of Eternity side of things there's a pretty even split of younger people (Teens-20s) and slightly older to middle aged people.
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Lauren Mayberry
As a 20-something year old, my taste is obviously going to be of women around my age. She's only 25, so probably a bit young for a lot of you around here.
I love my Scottish girls though. -
As far as DRM goes (the code-shackling, not the EULA), I actually think Steam manages to strike a very healthy balance of supporting developers while remaining as unintrusive to the end-user as possible. Steam is more than just a shackle - it manages your library, it provides community features, it features achievements, and the sales are fantastic. Now it hosts user reviews, can provide a mod hub, can provide servers (you're much more likely to find online players on a Steam server than elsewhere).
For developers, Steam provides anti-piracy, of course, but also visibility, (and the servers again). People like to forget that before Steam the indie game market was virtually nonexistent. That isn't to say that the whole indie market grew directly as a consequence of Steam, but it was absolutely a huge, very big factor.
Fact is, Steam does promote the use of the evil of DRM, but it does it in perhaps the best possible manner. For the restrictions we suffer in usage rights, Steam does very well to provide convenience to both developers and consumers alike. I think the real trouble is in the misguided message other publishers seem to get from Steam's success (e.g. Origin, Gamestop App, Ubisoft App, Games for Windows, etc.)
That being said, I still prefer my games DRM free from GOG.
Just because I've determined that Steam and its DRM aren't evil, and actually provide back to the gaming community, doesn't mean I have to prefer it. I'm a control freak - it's inherent in being a programmer.
I still can't help but to see it as a shackle, honestly. It might benefit some..but to me at least, I've been managing my own library for years, installing mods wasn't hard anyway, I read reviews elsewhere, etc. I know my opinion obviously isn't the popular one though, otherwise Steam wouldn't be the giant that it is today.
I will admit though, as an indie lover.. Steam did indeed help it there. I'd argue it's no longer the "top dog" for indie games, but it doesn't change that it did give it a huge boost initially.
Also, I don't know if you can still do it.. but I know at one point Steam had a HUGE flaw of being able to literally just copy someone's Steam files over to your computer and as long as you stayed offline you could play their entire library pseudo-drm free. So it had that going for it..
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There's actually plans to be able to tweak multiple options for difficulty. From the official wiki you can find all the info.
http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Mode
3 difficulty settings, and 3 more "hard settings" all of which can be overlapped to make a game for only the most masochistic of people.
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I used to think we could own software too and was concerned about DRM, and then I went to law school...
Seriously though, the whole DRM v. no-DRM fight was lost decades ago when it was decided that the best way to sell software was through licensing. The software liscense you agree to when installing pretty much any program is at its core managing your "digital" rights. There are more restictive ones and less restrictive ones, but all of them limit your rights in the way you use the software.
You're entirely right.
I still like to fight it in any way possible though, preferring games from sites like GOG or through developers directly "without DRM".
I don't like internet requirements, frequent license checks, etc.
I'm also "one of those people" though, my main machine runs Linux, and I'm a heavy supporter of things like the copyleft system. Basically.. I'm an internet hippie.
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On the original topic on DRM. If Obisidan and paradox make the game tied to steam keys, I don't see myself grumbling to much.
I personally just think people grumble about Steam DRM due to inertia.
There's a lot of us though who won't buy a game that has DRM period though.
Which is why I end up not owning many modern PC games that aren't indie.
If I can't feel like I genuinely own what I purchase I don't want it, and I can't feel that way with DRM.
If they sell the game through Steam with DRM, I don't care.. but if that was the only way to get it? I'd request my money back.
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"Thus, Dwarves might find bearded women attractive."
Dwarves don't play these games so their opinions don't matter since they aren't a part of the potential customer base. L0L
"That's kind of the whole point. If you make lizard people, they probably aren't attractive. Should we give them smooth skin that's peach-colored, instead of scales, so that they'll be attractive? Nope."
EPIC FAIL with your straw man. Comparing LIZARD PEOPLE with dwarves is silly since dwarves are humanoids with plenty similarities to humans - espicially since dwarves and humans can breed in more than a few fantasy worlds (including DnD lore). So, nice try. but, trying tio make LIZARD PEOPLE = DWARVES is silly talk.
Also, again, I don't care if DWARVES (who aren't really) find dwarven females with beards 'sexy' because dwarves don't exist.
My entire original point is that in DnD, dwarven females tend not to have beards. This is fact. In most other fantasy dealing with 'Tolkienized' dwarves, dwarven females really aren't shown a lot if at all really so this misnomer that all or the majority of dwarven females have beards just like their male counterparts is not based on anything in the literature.
Nor, is it 'old skool' thinking as I am current playing the 'old skool' NON DND M&M7, and nope no dwarven females with beards. Go figure.
I think you're missing the point. You are using your subjective opinion about something to try to objectively state something as if any and everyone does/should feel your way about it..which is not how things work.
Of course Dwarves don't play these games, nobody said anything about their opinions in the real world, because as you said they don't exist. The point trying to be made is, nobody asked if you as a human finds it attractive because nobody cares. If we want a diverse, rich, and believable lore behind these races it should include what THEY would genuinely find attractive, not what you would. The same way other cultures in the real world don't give a **** about if you like their culture, because it's theirs..not yours.
Also, I don't think you quite understand what the term humanoid means, not that it matters anyway because it's still a valid point they brought up..but.
A humanoid is simply something that resembles a human in one way, shape, or form including but not limited to bipedalism. Which includes anything anthropomorphic.
..kind of why they are referred to as lizard people/men/etc and not "lizard things"
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I've...honestly never had that much of a problem with pathfinding in IE games. I'm not sure if that's because I always set the pathfinding computation level to maximum, (which it's not, at least in some of the IE games, by default), or if it's because I semi-consciously account for and work around it.
Yeah, I mean.. is it as good as it could be? No, not at all and it'd be a blatant lie to say so. I've never had many of these nightmare situations people talk about though.
The worst I've probably ever had is when selecting the whole group to move to one location once in awhile 1 member will, for whatever reason go off in a completely different direction to somewhere I didn't command.
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I gotta agree with Pipyui. After all what is 4 mil $ nowadays for a company? Obsidian asked for a goal worth 1,1 mil $ but the facts are that if you want to do something properly you need to have cash to back it up. So here's hopin' that this sudden money shot helps this game a lot. It's a win-win situation, both for the developers and the backers (gamers).
Oh, and by the way, you gotta remember that if you add PayPal and other "late" backers to the equation (ones like Fluff) there is something about 4,5 mil $ total.
I would have backed it sooner if I would have known about the Kickstarter. </3
As somewhat of a game perfectionist it actually kind of bugs me not having a kickstarter badge even though it does nothing.
It'd be interesting though to see just how much they've earned post Kickstarter though because I hadn't even taken that into consideration for some reason.
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There really isn't, because as you mentioned it isn't something you can gauge. You can't really say "this is better" when there isn't a before to compare the after to.
We just have to trust that the money is actually going towards making the game better than it would have been without the money.
I don't believe the money has any specific use like enhancing ONLY such and such features, I believe it's more so just adding an extra level of polish and quality to everything they couldn't have done otherwise. Although I could be wrong and have missed an article or forum post somewhere stating otherwise.
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You wish me to be serious Mr Bryy? Most certainly not.
I would actually, I don't agree with you..bu the whole point of a debate or discussion is to actually back your opinions to make points. Not just say "I think this" with nothing to enforce it.
Will it change my personal opinion? Probably not, but who knows. Plus as someone who has never played a game that had overpriced DLC, or a game with DLC that "broke it" I'd be interested in these examples. Required to have a complete game though? Yes, of course.. but just because one game did that doesn't mean another has to and it isn't DLCs fault someone chose to use it that way.
Tomes are lame
in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted
I don't understand honestly.
There's already 4 different casting classes with different mechanics and you want them to spend more time and money to shoehorn in a 5th that plays essentially just like one of the ones we already have..only...not with a book?
This is just how the lore of this world has been written and how the classes within it operate.