Tanuvein
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Posts posted by Tanuvein
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lol... even Jolee has gotten more votes than Disciple so far...
Kavar got a nice respectable number of votes, especially considering you can't control him.
Well, Disciple's personality is whiny and annoying and egocentric (from what little I saw), and Jolee is a thousand times hotter. He's a very good looking man, in terms of polygonal people. And he's just funny.
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I just feel the need to point out that the best fictional written I've seen was in fact a video game, Planescape: Torment.
And I've read many a story, and published a few myself, that were total and unabashful crap.
I originally had a point, but I forgot it... so um.... Hello to you all
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I mean, a big problem I find with the EU (and with KotOR, but since I love it I let it slide) is that they constantly stress the theme that "you can come back from the Dark Side". No. No. No. Canonically speaking, Vader is the only person in *history* to have done so. Otherwise what would have prompted Yoda to have said his most famous quote on the dark side?
I mean, it wasn't like this:
Yoda: Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will!!! But I mean, occasionally come back to the light can you, happens does it sometimes - not so bad is the dark side really - many Jedi fall and come back, all the time happens does it. Revan for instance take, Juhani too, Ulic...
That's because Yoda has chubby fingers and can't type 'givelightside 100'
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I have to disagree with the "share the blame" philosophy.
LucasArts, as is their contractual right, demanded someone to develop Kotor 2 in a specific timeframe under certain conditions. OK...as the licensor, they can do this. Contract Requests for Proposal are let out for all kinds of products and services. If one doesn't feel one can't meet the conditions, then one negotiates to change them or walks away from the business. LucasArts would be forced to change their timeframe and expectations if no bidders came forward or felt they could meet the conditions. This decision was simply about money and status. To a startup, doing KOTOR 2 would be a flagship project. In other words, its too good to turn down.
Obsidian Entertainment agreed to certain terms, so crying about a short timeframe is crapola. I think nearly everyone on the forums will agree that the FINISHED product falls short of the standard we had set coming from KOTOR 1, especially in the area of too many bugs. The FULL RESPONSIBILITY for this shortcoming rests ENTIRELY with Obsidian Entertainment. They grossly overestimated their abilities given the timeframe constraints and project requirements.
As a consumer, who votes with his/her hard earned dollars, I have the right to expect a perfect game. This doesn't mean KOTOR 2 is horrible, just that it could have been better and any responsibility for it being less than that rests FULLY and SOLEY with Obsidian Entertainment. PERIOD.
This is a simple case of what the market will bear. If one feels one can't meet the deadline or conditions....then one has an OBLIGATION to say no. Perhaps Bioware said no to KOTOR 2 for this reason, perhaps not. Either way Obsidian Entertainment certainly could have walked away from the opportunity. No one made them take on this project. I can understand why they didn't walk away, but THAT issue may be the core issue in this whole matter and why KOTOR 2 turned out the way it did.
Let's all hope that KOTOR 3 is given more developmental and quality control time.
With a new engine....there is some hope there.
Hammer.
Actually, it seems teh majority of people here KotOR II more than the first. Probably why they still post.
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I, for one, thought that Kreia was the most impressive character in the whole game - perhaps the only thing that makes it truly great in the end, despite its obvious flaws. The problem is that she challenges the concept of morals - a challenge that is a little too powerful for the fabric of the Star Wars universe, perhaps.
Of course, she is not the first to do it: Writers like Bernard Shaw and Nietzsche are the pioneers of this line of thought. However, both of them were fiercely set against romance (in the sense of "heroic tale"). And since Star Wars is perhaps THE romantic tale of our time, the attempt to mix it with Shavian anti-romanticism is risky indeed.
For example: Her argument in the bum affair is not really about the bum himself - she doesn't care about anyone except the Exile. She just tries to lead him away from Jedi (christian) morality. For her, the coming of the "Superman" is all that matters. And the "Superman" - in the Shavian/Nietzsche sense - must act without being constrained by conventional rules of conduct.
A point she should have considered, though, is that the Exile, being the strongest person around, could still solve everybodies problems - not out of charity, but because he would become even stronger by taking away the challenges presented to other people. In this sense, he would help himself by stealing other people's resources - and this, Kreia should approve of!
The game, however, doesn't truly allow for such a solution. We are forced to be either charitable or passive. The spectrum of possible actions does not go beyond romanticism, the binary ideal of beneficient Knight and cruel oppressor.
In the end, the whole experiment of mixing classic Star Wars romanticism with "modernist" anti-moralicism clearly fails: We want answers to the very interesting philosophical questions posed during the game, but none are given. Instead, Kreia, the powerful third party beyond Jedi-Morality and Sith-Cruelty, loses her identity and just becomes another Dark Lord and end-level boss.
That, for me, was the biggest disappointment, far beyond the nonexistence of some robot planet. But then again, the stakes were a little to high to expect to win.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here.
For your first point, Kreia actually does (or at least, can) say something perfectly supporting your idea. I am paraphrasing here "I don't care if you help people or make them weak. It is good to make people weak, because it gives you strength. But don't delude yourself, don't think you are doing them good. You are simply making yourself stronger."
And in no way does Kreia become the Sith cruelty in the end. She even tells you that she is here to strengthen you, to make you stronger. She says that this fight against her is your final test, the thing you need to do to make you the perfect warrior.
The game has a wide variety of possiblities: It truly is a well crafted literary gem. It disproves shallow thought that video games cannot be deep or intellectual, the same way people probably once thought movies or music could not be intellectual. I thought it was very interesting how it played that you should gain the strengths of other to be the Superman. That is, in fact, best played out when you are in fact gray: You do not weaken yourself by doing good because you think its right, nor do you weaken yourself with base desires for destruction.
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Who would you want to have children with, Atton or Carth?
Well, whoever had the child out of us would probably die.
I'm a guy, so you know.
I'd go for Bao-Dur. He's voice is soothing, he's incredibly intelligent, which is a must, he's loyal and he has a strong will and compassionate personality. The perfect guy
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All good replies, everyone.
I think Aurora hit the nail on the head... For me... When she made her Buffy and Angel comparsions with regards to their final seasons and overall themes.
It seems to me that TSL is about sacrifice... But it is also saying sacrifice is basically worthless because we (humans; Jedi; Sith; The Galaxy) are all screwed regardless of what we do and we are all just pawns of the all mighty Force.
I know this isn't a new perspective... Especially, for the SW universe... But I think the big problem is the writers never really asked themselves does this make for an interesting plot for a video game?
I don't think it does.
I think it is too cerebral -- to be blunt -- And this is why I said I think the storyline (even with all of its flaws) may be too sophisticated for the SW universe and this is ultimately why it just does not feel like a SW story darker theme, or not.
And since this may be the underlying theme, or foundation the story is based on, then I think this is ultimately the crux of why the story really doesn't work any way you slice it if you view it as not working (some do).
Granted, I don't want every SW RPG to be a black-and-white story of redemption like KOTOR was either. However, I think who(m)ever writes the next one should find a better way to balance trying to be unique and original with still keeping with what SW is at its core (Swashbuckling, Sci-Fi Fantasy)
Is this possible? Maybe it is not. But I think TSL, in my humble opinion, is possibly a cautionary tale in trying to be original and unique and possibly going too far as a result.
Also, I know we all are entitled to our subjective opinions and that is fine.
But from someone who has been paid to write screenplays for production companies... The "professional" part of semi-professional...
When I look at TSL as a whole (story)... There are things that leap out at me that as much as people try and defend, just should have never made it into the game in the current form they did because they are in fact plot holes and leaps in logic that you can't just "ignore" even if you just want to play the game. As I said, it is this lack of polish you (me in this case) notice if you are paid to deliver stories on a similar level, or are just a fan of well-written stories in general.
Anyway, keep those thoughts coming
Again, I still don't see these leaps of logic or plot holes. I wrote professionally, I love to read and have an extensive library - its not like storytelling is unfamiliar to me - and don't really see any leaps of logic at all.
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When did Cordy die? I never saw that. When the show ends, she's still being cared for elsewhere as far as I knew. Also, how was the pregnancy the worst plot device ever? It made perfect sense.
Couple of episodes from the end. She's in the episode and kinda wakes Angel up to what is going on. It's the one where everyone thinks she has woken up from the coma , but right at the very end Angel gets a phonecall to say that she died and never woke up <spooky music here>
I somehow forgot about that
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I didn't think it fit the series at all. The first few seasons were very much about redemption and justice and fairness and what those really meant or could mean, as ideals and in reality. The end of season 5 was about Our Heroes realizing that not only were they a bunch of idiot puppets for TPTB just LIKE THEY'D BEEN SAYING ALL SEASON TO EACH OTHER, but that everything ever was hopeless.* The hint of "life is hard, but we do what we can to make it better" was brutally crushed, IMO, by the "life is hard, and we do what we can, and it's all hopeless and gee I hope that Hell isn't as bad as they say 'cause that's where we're going since we can never make up for the bad things we did, ever" theme. Oh, plus the whole Circle of the Black Thorn Club tossed in at the last minute, and all the dangly unresolved plotlines.
Wes died pointlessly and stupidly, in a manner that was very unfair to the character even if he had turned kinda crazy. Fred's soul was utterly destroyed, just to show that Bad Things Happen To Good People Haha. Spike and Angel are damned to hell forever, because *nothing they do will ever be good enough.* Gunn's going to die, who knows what'll happen to him. Lindsay wanted to redeem himself in some manner but had to be killed by Lorne because Angel decided he might've been wishy-washy and they couldn't take the risk, the risk that ultimately wouldn't have mattered anyway. Lorne actually had the fairest ending: he ran away because he didn't ultimately care too much about good versus evil. Illyria might be killed, or might survive by punching the hell out of everything. Harmony ran off, because she was never meant to be redeemed and a joke of a character anyway. Cordelia died in her sleep, ultimately the result of a demon pregnancy (which is the WORST plot device ever, although I adored the Jasmine arc), because Joss was pissed at the actress: at least she got to say goodbye in a way, I suppose.
I wouldn't say the first few seasons were about justice or fairness at all, but rather how, despite trying for redemption, evil can corrupt and destroy. Never were the good guys ever on the winning side. Season 1 was very episodic and still trying to find its own style. Season 2, Angel was responsible for more cruelty than most other characters in the show.
I don't think the 'life is hard, we'll do what we can' changed at all. Because life was still hard. And what did they do? Everything they could. They destroyed Wolfram and Hart's hold on the world, at least for a good time. And that's the best you can do. Evil will never be destroyed, no more than good, and one side can never triumph permanantly over the other. The best you can do is make the world better for a while.
What unresolved plot lines are you talking about, by the way? And the Circle of Black Thorns had been hinted at since the beginning of the season.
I wouldn't say Wes died pointlessly and stupidly, but I would have preferred to see it more elaborate. However, this ties into my next point: Fred's soul was destroyed? What? Did you watch the show? Illyria, the evil hell demon, became more and more human BECAUSE of Fred's soul. She learned to care, to fight for something greater than herself, and ultimately to love... she wanted revenge for Wes' death, and his falling showed how much she had grown.
And who says Spike and Angel are damned to hell? Spike considers himself redeemed. The only person who thinks Angel needs to keep suffering and struggling for redemption was Angel himself.
As for Lindsey, the fact Angel hated him probably had something to do with it. Angel had no problem killing people he hated, especially if he thought it was for the best. Sure, sometimes he tried to redeem people... but not all the time. He loved Darla, once, in an evil sort of way. That's why he tried for her. He intended to murder Holtz until the man said he wanted the best for Connor and that he'd leave (tricksy bastard), he intended to murder Wes for taking Connor even though Wes obviously did what he thought was right.
When did Cordy die? I never saw that. When the show ends, she's still being cared for elsewhere as far as I knew. Also, how was the pregnancy the worst plot device ever? It made perfect sense.
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1) The "character knows their past, but player doesn't" thing is okay in theory, but didn't work out so well in the real game. A few parts, like meeting Bao-Dur, were okay - adding characters from the past who know the PC is neat, as it makes it feel like the PC have a history. But this particular character's history didn't work so well for other parts, for meeting people who were very close to you and having to say "yeah, sorry about the mass murder" while they go on about your past.
2) Partly disagree. I think cliche was avoided for Atton's character because he never actually says "I want to make up for everything I did wrong and I feel awful about it," although of course it comes through in his other dialogue. He doesn't go around constantly muttering about redemption. He's brave enough to desire redemption when the opportunity expressly comes up, but too frightened to do anything about it otherwise. Maybe that's still vaguely cliche, but it's pretty hard to avoid having no cliches at all, ever. I think he was still a fascinating character.
And if he'd been a Sith Lord, it would've been just as easy to say "oh, of course he is! He was totally open about his dark past and never said he regretted it so he technically never lied to you!"
Mira definitely needed a stronger motivation to tag along. "Oh, you're my bounty" got silly, as she didn't seem like the kind of person to lie to herself so much. Hanharr's joining up just to watch you didn't feel strong enough, either. I didn't see a real reason why Mandalore needed to travel with you.
3) Totally agreed about the darkness. This is a huge problem for many beginning/intermediate writers: they think that piling on misery after misery makes their story better. Reviewing clumsily-written drug addiction/rape/abortion/breakup stories is... not one of the best ways to spend one's time.
I think it was handled moderately well in some areas of the game: I understood that a big part of it was how the wars had touched everyone, had hurt them. But still, I wanted some kind of character like Mission: someone who wasn't going to be a total **** to me at some point, someone who wasn't completely scarred and (at least!) half-broken inside because of their past. Even *T3,* the sweet innocent little droid, is depressed because he was abandoned and is hiding things from the player.
As for the endings themselves: the scrapped endings fill me with mixed feelings. They're well-written technically, but there really doesn't seem to be much point to killing everyone off (except Atton, to a certain extent) aside from "yup. Everyone's dead. DRAMA." And either way, ending as-is or ending cut-out, the Exile has no ultimate choice about their fate: sorry, you're going to do this and there's nothing you can do about it.
The theme of KOTOR1 was redemption. The theme of KOTOR2 leans more towards sacrifice - but, as it is (cut and included material both), it feels like pointless, empty sacrifice.
It's the difference between, say, the end of Buffy and the end of Angel. People died on the Buffy season finale, some totally unecessarily, but the remaining characters still saved the world and brought forth new hope, both for the characters and for the world itself. There was a lot of clumsy storytelling, true (not to mention some of the godawful dialogue) but it ultimately felt emotionally satisfying for me.
The end of Angel? Well, they realized that redemption was a pointless waste of time and that they were all literally doomed to hell, a bunch of random exposition was tossed out to make some sketchy plotlines make sense, one character died in a totally idiotic pointless way, and the others were all pretty much ready to die just, uh, just for the heck of it. Pretty damn frustrating when you've watched this show for five entire years - or, say, paid $50 for a computer game.
You liked the ending of Buffy more than that of Angel? That's shocking... Angel's ending was purely fantastic, and it fit the entire mood of the series and the personality of the characters. I loved every minute of Angel's ending.
And KotOR I isn't really about redemption, because you can be pretty evil - I know, last time I played through, I was probably quite a bit more needlessly malevolent than pre-mind-raped Revan.
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Actually, Bao-Dur explained to me the Shadow Generator about half way through the game.
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I know there are a lot of threads about this topic, but this topic is going to be a little different because I am a semi-professional [fiction] writer and I am going to analyze three main factors where I think Obsidian really did drop the ball... Regardless of the content that was cut.
You can view this thread and the things as I say as arrogant, conceded, and whatever you like and that is fine.
But I would hope that you at least read what I have to say before you pronounce judgement on my opinion because I feel what I say here is accurate in a lot of respects and I don't do it to just "bash" OE. I do it because there are general flaws in this story's logic that shouldn't be there, but the player is forced to just "overlook" in order to play the game and that should never be the case in any form of narrative entertainment in my opinion.
With that said...
1) Your Character Does Not Have Amnesia
This is one of the major problems with TSL from the start because while the Exile doesn't have amnesia... You, as the player, are forced to play the game as if you did and that, right there, is why this game feels disjointed because I don't think Obsidian properly balanced discovering your past with living in your present.
The best example of this is the fact that the Exile, in no uncertain terms, has PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) that is amplified 10 fold because of his/her Force Bonds to living beings and what he did on Malachor V... Yet it is as if he has completely forogtten everything when we meet him when in reality that is the one few things he would still be aware of and desparately tryhing to forget more than anything else.
The fact that the gamer has to suspend their disbelief that he/she has already forgotten such life altering events is such an illogical and weak assumption on the storytellers part and is not one that the foundation, the player's suspension of disbelief, the game should soley rely on in my book.
This flaw is compounded in that the Exile has no "visions" or nightmares (flashbacks) of what he did during the war like Revan did in the original KOTOR. This only makes this assumption even harder to swallow as the main player character.
Also, where this is really evident is when you finally reach Malachor V late in the game.
You have no recollection of the Shadow Generator... Which is highly illogical as that probably is the source of your PTSD and guilt for all the lives that were lost becuase you gave the order to fire it... Yet this is the first time in the game it is brought up AND you still didn't remember this through out your whole journey?!
This is what I meant when I mentioned earlier that having such illogical assumptions and sloppy executions makes revelations like the SG look amateurish and "Deus Ex Machina" and it detracts from the immersiveness and overall quality of the story being told.
2) Most of The Party Members Have No Motivation to Join You and Vice Versa
I realize that this is an RPG and you have to make some sacrifices in order to have a game...
But I found that almost everyone aside from Kriea, Goto and Visis... Had no real incentive or motives to want to tag along with you. Let alone, the fact the Exile is trying to forget and realistically, a lot of war veterans who would be as severly troubled as the Exile do not go seeking out others because they need the isolation (the stories of Vietnam and Middle-East vets living in the middle of deserts like Wyoming and the forests of the Pacific Northwest aren't made up; they feel at home in these places as long as none one is around because they are ultra-paranoid).
Again, my suspension of disbelief as a gamer was stretched very thin in this respect because it just does not make a lot of sense to the point you can't just consciously overlook it to some degree.
Atton: Who is similar to the Exile in trying to forget his past... Would not just automatically ally himself with two Jedi considering he was a Sith Assassin.
You can argue it was because he had no choice and wanted to get off Peragus... But realistically, he probably would ditch you and Kriea the first chance he got... Let alone probably try and sell you to the Exchange because that is who he is. His "redemption" (if you play LS) comes out of nowhere and feels incredibly forced and cliched. Even his explanation as to who he was (Sith Assassin) gives no real motivation as to why he wants to all of a sudden become a "good guy" and become a Jedi if you have enough influence in him.
It is really ashame because I think OE could have avoided the cliched "troubled soul who only needs to see the light" storyline and actually had Atton be the betrayer, or just stay covertly "evil". I think that would have actually been a more fresh and unexpected approach in my opinion. It would be great if he was actually a Sith Lord and his whole "brooding boy who wants to make amends" act was just that: An act, so that he could get closer to the Exile and Kriea and either turn them on each other and or kill both of them...
And what would be even better and add more depth to gameplay is if Kriea *knew* Atton was a Sith Lord in hiding and she tried to counter his manipulations with her own. You'd basically have a struggle for the Exile's "soul" going on between these two characters and I think that could have been a much more interesting take the light and dark sides of the force as well as the gray area in between that this game seems to want to address, but just doesn't really get into for some reason.
I think if OE had gone with a more unorthodox storyline like this that it would have made the Influence system even more important since there would be more at stake when the revelation is made that Atton is in fact a Sith Lord because then the way you influenced your party members would determine who stands with or against Atton, Kriea and yourself.
As far as the other party members... Mira has almost no point (or even backstory) and is just there to give the Exile another soldier (LS); Harrar if you go DS... The Handmaiden (m) and Disciple (fm) are the same way. Their only real purpose is to give you more "followers" and to try and get the point across that you are a natural born leader.
As I said, only Kreia, Goto and Visas have any real motivations (and backstory) as to why they would consciously want to seek you out and tag along as each has their own agenda... And are even up front about those agendas in a lot of ways... And are just using the Exile to further those goals.
3) Darker Do Not Mean No Emotionally Satisfying Endings
It is an unfortunate staple in the entertainment industry that whenever a story is reported to be darker, it usually means the producers are going to use this as an excuse to cocentrate more on addressing issues and themes that are mostly overlooked by other stories... But it also means the emphasis is more on mood and atmosphere and little details (dialogue; setting; actions) and not the overall story as a whole. TSL continues this trend, unfortunately.
Yes. The game is more ambiguous than the first. The tone is much more gray in terms of the LS and DS of the force than KOTOR.
However, being ambiguous is not an excuse for not delivering a solid and emotionally satisfying ending.
This is the trap that TSL has fallen into because while the Exile acts more like a normal person in terms of his responses to some of the NPC dialogues... The actual ending of the game is where it all falls apart and the player is left with a sense of emptiness and disappointment as if the journey they just went on (storywise) was for nothing.
This is bad if a movie, or novel has this kind of ending, but inexplicably bad for an RPG where the emotional satisfaction at the end for the player having done everything is the overall goal of the game from the very start.
TSL fails miserably in this regard and it is the worst possible failure it can have among the others I've already listed. This is the main reason why a lot of people don't "get" or flat out don't like the ending. There is no emotional closure, nor any emotional satisfaction for completing the game.
In addition, I realize that the original ending(s) were cut.
However, at the same time, after reading the cut material... I still think TSL suffers from not having any real focus (for the player) and that even if the cut content was put back in... The *main narrative of the game is still lacking in terms of having any real emotional core and forces the player to make illogical leaps to enjoy the game and give any real meaning why you are doing any of the things you have been doing up until the end.
*Only the subplots would have been nicely wrapped up. For example, the Goto-Remote stand off would have been resolved when HK-47 bursts in and kicks Goto ass... But this is reliant on the Droid Factory and M3_47(?) planet being put back into the game since this severs Gotos link over all of his HK droids.
So, there is my take on things.
Like I said, you can completely disregard what I have to say, call me a "whinner" or whatever you want.
But I think these are the main reasons you are seeing a lot of posts that are confused about the ending, other plot shortcomings and storytelling flaws that crop up through out the game regardless of what content was cut to meet the ship deadline.
1) The pain he felt was not the fact he killed or fought in wars, but the fact he felt thousands of deaths at once through the Force. The pain he felt was from being disconected from that power. It never says he felt guilty about the deaths themselves. The game also never says the Exile forgot what happened, was trying to, or that he didn't know what the Shadow Generator is. This is typical story telling... the main character always knows more than the reader. Its your part to piece it together based on what you see and hear. Having everything explained to you is what weak story telling is.
I find it odd you complain about other cliches, yet want hte main character to have amnesia? That is the largest cliche ever. I really thought it was innovative and enjoyable to be able to develop and control your characters backstory as well as present one. That's true RPing there (or at least as close as most games have reached so far)
2) This game is not about good and evil. Having Atton be 'evil' would have really ruined the focus of the story - that both malevolent and benevolent acts can produce both positive and negative results. That there is no real good or evil, simply what you percieve. Sith soldiers didn't join the Sith because they were evil or because they wanted to see people suffer (though Atton did say he enjoyed this), simply because it was a job and they could do it and believed in what they were doing. I know many vets who did these things, tortured and murdered, enjoyed it, and are perfectly stable members of society. They also LOVE to talk your ear off about all the adventures they had, both good and bad.
Sure, they could have made him a Sith Lord too, but that would have been strange considering how you got him into your party. And he wasn't seeking for redemption, really. He did what he had to. Sure, he felt bad about killing her, but he thought it was neccessary and still does.
Handmaiden goes with you because her mother was a Jedi, and she sees the same power in you (and Atris made her). She wants to understand it, and feel it. And both her and Mira follow you because you ARE a natural born leader. If you were such a strong individual that attracted people, it would be strange if you never attracted followers throughout the game.
3) I partially agree with you here. The ending did satisfy most of the plot, and though some things could have used a better elaboration, they WERE explained. I disagree that hte story was not strong or emotional. It was certainly strong on the basis of what is wrong and right. I also felt emotionally attached to my companions by the end of the game. Not everything has to be love and sacrifice to be satisfying.
I do agree the ending was a bit lackluster though... it simply didn't have the depth or emotional strength that the rest of the development held. The main plot itself, ignoring hte underlying moral plot, was decent. However, this is a game, not a book. Its about interaction, combat and role playing, not neccessarily the main story. Its the smaller side stories that tend to make RPGs exceptional, since you control and develop them. Sure, it could also have made the main plot more complex, but that's not the story they were trying to tell. It would have only gotten in the way.
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Actually, I figured the reason the Ebon Hawk crashed was the reason all the other ships had crashed on there and everyone had died - the Mass Shadow Generator.
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I don't see the word "humble" in the Jedi code, neither I see "self-sacrifice".
Actually I see "Thereis no emotion" and "There is no passion"
Try looking beyond the words into the meanings of the code.
I am trying. Even better - I am looking to the members of the Jedi council trying to gent a nexample from them. And what I see - they are pompous, arrogant, untollerant, unforgiving. Or they are more Jedi then the other Jedi and that's why they are allowed to behave in such manner?
They are practically fallen because they are arrogant, intolerant and unforgiving. They've lost what it is to be Jedi, that's why you don't get dark points for telling them no - they are practically raping you.
Also, its not being impulsive to help people. That's consistent. Its what Jedi do.
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Episode III might actually be good. Episode 1 was horrible, 2 was good except for the pathetically immature romance part... which Episode III doesn't have. Here's hoping!
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Glad to find someone that thinks like me. Most people don't get past the hate/anger clichI couldn't agree more. I wish you had some [Lie] dialogue options with your companions, so you can say nice things you don't mean to win influence with the ones who lean to the light side, rather than have to mean it an get LSP or be petty and nasty to them.There was a nice line in the first game by I think one of the merchants on Korriban about how just because someone was Sith they didn't have to be a thug. I wish both games had let you do that, it could have worked really well with the influence, corrupt your companions not just be mean to them.
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No, it wasn't the police - you got your car for 40 bucks from the local car dump
I wish
I had to pay 500 
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However, as a LS character, you can still accept any reward: simply you get a little less LS points. Trying to play a DS character is much worse, as it seems that all the DS characters found in SW games nowadays are a bunch os sadistic idiots.
Kreia *IS* how a dark side character should be. Not at the end but during the whole course of the game. She loves to insinuate doubts, she teaches the player to be selfish, she sees the whole universe and its people as an opportunities to be exploited.
I couldn't agree more. I wish you had some [Lie] dialogue options with your companions, so you can say nice things you don't mean to win influence with the ones who lean to the light side, rather than have to mean it an get LSP or be petty and nasty to them.
There was a nice line in the first game by I think one of the merchants on Korriban about how just because someone was Sith they didn't have to be a thug. I wish both games had let you do that, it could have worked really well with the influence, corrupt your companions not just be mean to them.
You make an excellent point. I haven't played fully through with a dark side character yet (probably will in a month or two), but I always thought that I should be able to tell my companions what they want to hear, if for no other reason than to gain their trust. Now, I always like to play my character as loyal to his or her friends, so I have no problem taking the minor hits to my dark sidedness in order to gain influence or just plain be nice with no rewards.
My friend played his game that way, never being an ****, but always being evil, and he got full darkside with no problems, though it did fluctate away from that at times.
the handmaidens are clones and theres me thinking that their mother was just a working girl?They aren't clones, they just all have the same mother and father. THE Handmaiden has a different mother from them, thus why she looks different.
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But of the police take your car, they have the right to (and usually do) sell it or keep it or do whatever. Because its not yours. Its theirs. So its not your lightsaber, its theirs. And she can take it if she wants to. Because its not yours.
No, if the police has the reason to take my car, it has no right to give it to some policemen to drive it, neither they have any rights of ownership and they (of course) cannot sell it. Who the hell told you the police can sell the cars in detention?
The fact that they do it all the time? Its how I got my car for cheap.
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Bad Tanuvein. No Carth-Atton escapades for you.
Aw, but they are made for each other!
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2) She didn't steal your lightsaber. You surrendered it to the council. Its hers by right.
No, it is not. Atris is not the council. She is/was just one of them. And even if she is the council, a Jedi lightsaber is a private thing. It either belongs to the Jedi, or don't belong to anyone else.
I wasn't talking about hte Jedi Masters Council, but the judging council. She was on that. You surrendered it to them, and they obviously let her take it. In any event, it wasn't yours any more. They were allowed to give it to anyone they wanted.
No. Exactly in the event you put in in the stone. You didn't give it to the council.
If someone revokes my driving license and I leave my car no matter where, it doesn't mean the guy who revoked my driving license has the right to take my car.
And besides - no one nowhere tells the council gave the saber to the Atris. Even Atris says "I took it..."
No one takes my lightsaber and lives to use it!
But of the police take your car, they have the right to (and usually do) sell it or keep it or do whatever. Because its not yours. Its theirs. So its not your lightsaber, its theirs. And she can take it if she wants to. Because its not yours.
As the poster above me said, they asked you to give up your lightsaber, and you did. They didn't take away your right to use one or make one again if you wished too.
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2) She didn't steal your lightsaber. You surrendered it to the council. Its hers by right.
No, it is not. Atris is not the council. She is/was just one of them. And even if she is the council, a Jedi lightsaber is a private thing. It either belongs to the Jedi, or don't belong to anyone else.
I wasn't talking about hte Jedi Masters Council, but the judging council. She was on that. You surrendered it to them, and they obviously let her take it. In any event, it wasn't yours any more. They were allowed to give it to anyone they wanted.
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Annoying how easy LS points are to attain compared to DS, obviously it should be easier to kill on killing spree like a psycho being evil, than it should be to do charity in my opion, if you look at religous views it should be easier to inflict damage on your soul by killing just for fun, than it should to gain warmth for just throwing around charity, for it to truely influence you it would have to be meaningful charity which is alot harder to find than just doing random acts of violence.
Looking at it what would give you higher satisfaction giving money to a poor person starving to death or give a friend or a random person a couple of credits for a Beer or something?
"systems Failing master!!!"
Actually, if you went on a killing spree, you'd have your ship locked down and a planetary army trying to kill you.
Sure, based on the difficulty of both KotOR I and KotOR II, you could defeat said army, but do you really want to spend 60 hours in one big battle?
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xcellent work.
Yo should draw them making out now
TSL Story From a Writers Perspective
in Star Wars: General Discussion
Posted
Exactly how sloppy it is seems to be your own conclusion. I've already addressed why I disagree with you on how interesting and powerful it is... but it is in no way sloppy. I'm not saying this because I need to justify buying the game - I play games with no story at all, and am pleased with that purchas - but because its true.
Writing also has nothing to do with appreciating and understanding stories more. As I've noted, some of the worst writing I've read is professional, and I've read some that will never get published that is fantastic. Just because someone isn't a writer doesn't mean they can't - I'm sure there is someone here who has never even tried to get a book published that could possible blow us all away with their fictional writing.
There are people here who are competent, poissibly more intelligent than you, who do not write - but they could just as easily understand it far better than you, and some, in fact, have shown that they do.