Kaczor

What is the point of different classes in the first place, if You want to play sneaking wizards and spell casting barbarians? And still - the fighter who increased his defection bonus by brewing potions sounds wrong to me. If You want to use such rhetoric in this discussion, I feel obliged to say that anything is better than some silly "XP lottery" minigame. Did I win?

In early game stages leveling up whole party may be game-changing (see ICWD series). It may or may not be of some concern in P:E. Fussing around to maximize XP will be annoying and stupid, no matter how it will be implemented. It is not H'n'S game, where XP is the only indicator of one's progression. And it is not about punishing mages for trying to sneak, but about rewarding them for doing "mage stuff". I was an oversimplification on my side, I admit. Let me reformulate it: characters like priests or paladins should be penalized for breaching their beliefs, whatever these beliefs are. Said page says also this: "Dedicated to spreading the news of their gods' dominions in the realms of mortals through their own deeds, adventuring priests thrust themselves into lethal conflict to prove their worth. Often trained to fight alongside soldiers of their respective churches, priests are capable in the fray (and near the fray, for those who follow less melee-oriented faiths), but their true power comes from their prayers, faith-inspired miracles that aid their allies and punish their enemies. These miracles range from combat blessings, weapon enchantments, and protective barriers to divine summons, sanctified wards, and crippling curses. In many ways, the prayers of priests have almost as much variety as wizards spells, though priests are restricted to invoking prayers that are aligned with their faith."

If a player will be forced to change NPCs from time to time, this whole tread is pointless as all the characters will end up with different amounts of XP. Well, it certainly sounds more interesting than giving equal rewards to everyone, doesn't it? Being anti-X was discussed some posts ago ( http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64585-lets-not-have-everyone-level-at-once/page-3?do=findComment&comment=1387800 ). Is it enough to convince You? Oh... Is that confirmed? I always thought they will worship some sort of god and obey his commandments?

That is certainly the best solution and it was discussed before. The only reason, I can imagine, for seeking another way is the overall complicity of this idea, which makes it unlikely to be implemented. I disagree on the experience penalty, however. Isn't it pointless? Fighter is already penalized in said situation as he does not get the bonus. Unless he is less suitable for this kind of job than paladins, wizards, clerics or any non-rogue characters, I see no reason to double this penalty. Such actions should have more dire ramifications for paladin-like characters. Loosing all abilities would suffice...

@jethro: I have used D&D 3.5 progression as a base, hence the strange numbers. @neo6874: I have made a mistake, namely scaling has been done by "total XP" instead of "XP to next level". I see nothing wrong in your example, however. It guarantees 0-1 level difference among all classes, doesn't it? This solution cannot handle too many classes, because it will shrink the "maximum amount of XP allowed to be rewarded at once" to laughable values, but I believe it is not really the case in Project Eternity.

Once again - one of the major improvements over AD&D is to prevent such differences. Look at the following table build around jethro's idea: Experience | Warrior | Rogue | Wizard Experience | Warrior | Rogue | Wizard Experience | Warrior | Rogue | Wizard 0 | level 1 | level 1 | level 1 2500 | ------- | ------- | ------- 5000 | ------- | ------- | ------- 100 | ------- | ------- | ------- 2600 | ------- | ------- | ------- 5100 | ------- | ------- | ------- 200 | ------- | ------- | ------- 2700 | ------- | ------- | ------- 5200 | ------- | ------- | ------- 300 | ------- | ------- | ------- 2800 | ------- | ------- | ------- 5300 | ------- | ------- | ------- 400 | ------- | ------- | ------- 2900 | ------- | ------- | ------- 5400 | ------- | ------- | ------- 500 | ------- | ------- | ------- 3000 | level 3 | ------- | ------- 5500 | ------- | ------- | ------- 600 | ------- | ------- | ------- 3100 | ------- | ------- | ------- 5600 | ------- | ------- | ------- 700 | ------- | ------- | ------- 3200 | ------- | ------- | ------- 5700 | ------- | ------- | ------- 800 | ------- | ------- | ------- 3300 | ------- | level 3 | ------- 5800 | ------- | ------- | ------- 900 | ------- | ------- | ------- 3400 | ------- | ------- | ------- 5900 | ------- | ------- | ------- 1000 | level 2 | ------- | ------- 3500 | ------- | ------- | ------- 6000 | level 4 | ------- | ------- 1100 | ------- | level 2 | ------- 3600 | ------- | ------- | level 3 6100 | ------- | ------- | ------- 1200 | ------- | ------- | level 2 3700 | ------- | ------- | ------- 6200 | ------- | ------- | ------- 1300 | ------- | ------- | ------- 3800 | ------- | ------- | ------- 6300 | ------- | ------- | ------- 1400 | ------- | ------- | ------- 3900 | ------- | ------- | ------- 6400 | ------- | ------- | ------- 1500 | ------- | ------- | ------- 4000 | ------- | ------- | ------- 6500 | ------- | ------- | ------- 1600 | ------- | ------- | ------- 4100 | ------- | ------- | ------- 6600 | ------- | level 4 | ------- 1700 | ------- | ------- | ------- 4200 | ------- | ------- | ------- 6700 | ------- | ------- | ------- 1800 | ------- | ------- | ------- 4300 | ------- | ------- | ------- 6800 | ------- | ------- | ------- 1900 | ------- | ------- | ------- 4400 | ------- | ------- | ------- 6900 | ------- | ------- | ------- 2000 | ------- | ------- | ------- 4500 | ------- | ------- | ------- 7000 | ------- | ------- | ------- 2100 | ------- | ------- | ------- 4600 | ------- | ------- | ------- 7100 | ------- | ------- | ------- 2200 | ------- | ------- | ------- 4700 | ------- | ------- | ------- 7200 | ------- | ------- | level 4 2300 | ------- | ------- | ------- 4800 | ------- | ------- | ------- 7300 | ------- | ------- | ------- 2400 | ------- | ------- | ------- 4900 | ------- | ------- | ------- 7400 | ------- | ------- | ------- As You can see, Wizard, who levels the slowest, reached 2nd level way earlier than the fastest leveling Warrior got his 3rd. Assuming it is impossible to obtain more than 10% of current XP at once (no quest/encounter offers so high reward), different classes will never level up at the same time. You can also notice that differences in required XP among classes are negligible compared to the total amount necessary to level up.

And yet, a Wizard can utilize Illusion magic in order to accomplish things with equal amounts of Stealth, thereby making him a better master of Illusion, and, in-turn, Stealth. There isn't really an end result that's exclusive to one class or the other (in terms of something such as "attacking from the shadows.") Sound logical, as long as Wizard can only learn illusion spells as he levels up. You can prove that any skill or ability is cross-class ("Treat my Fighter as a Wizard, because he wears Plate Armor of Fireballs!"), but that it not the case. Some activities are "natural" to one class, some are tailored to the other. I agree on the rest of your post, however. jethro's idea is based on AD&D, but it guarantees that all character of equal experience will also be equal or almost equal in level. To understand why this is important, look at the BG II: SoA level caps (Rogue - 23, Druid - 14). Oh... and there is no level 0 in D&D 3.5.

It works in the opposite manner. Both Rogue and Wizard gain new abilities when they grow in level, but these abilities are different. While learning to attack from shadows by sneaking makes some sense, getting new spells in such manner does not. Sneaking can make one a better Rogue, but it won't make him a Wizard. The problem with do-it-to-improve-it (aside from feeling even more grindy than conventional levelling; hello casting "detect life" every 30 seconds in Oblivion to grind Illusion) is how easily it pigeonholes you. You took an aggressive approach early in the game? Well, you never get to use stealth now because your Hitting Things With Sticks is level 10 and your Sneaking By Things With Sticks is level 1, and by now all the NPCs have Detecting Hidden People With Sticks level 8. You avoided most combat with stealth and diplomacy early on? Hope you never wanted to win a fight in the mid-to-late-game. It will also discourage mixing characters of different classes. Bunch of warriors will use brute force and level evenly. Party of five warriors and one diplomat can talk its way and boost one character or fight and strengthen the rest.

In most cases such info is recorded anyways. However, I can't deny that it may overcomplicate things and end up in being not worth it. Still, I would love to see it in game. I dislike the concept of being "just a priest". All the religious classes should be connected with a certain deity and be treated that way (you worship a cruel and malicious god? - killing the innocent is your thing; you believe in the goddess of valor? - act boldly to please her!). Solving a puzzle may give equal reward to everyone, no point in forcing this scheme where it does not fit.

Perhaps I did misunderstand the concept, but to be perfectly clear - is the situation below against said principle? Quest - travel to X, Obstacle - the way to X is infested with enemies, Reward - the party have reached its destination killing everyone in sight = more XP for warriors, they have sneaked past most enemies avoiding combat = more XP for rogues. It's nothing like method 4. and it is somehow objective-oriented. I also see nothing wrong in different rewards for objective with only one solution (this time to warrior's advantage, next time to rogue's). Levels that offer nothing but some hit points are pointless anyways. As I said before - this solution is fine if done right, but should not be used as a balancing tool.

It did, but these points were evenly distributed among party members if I recall correctly. It's only true if there will be only one way to reach certain objective. I believe it's not going to happen and in most cases player will be given a choice to hack'n'slash, talk or do whatever his character is capable of to accomplish his goals. And this is the point where different classes can be rewarded differently. While I like the idea in general, I don't think it is a right way to balance classes. It can be used in such manner as a last resort, but classes should be balanced without it. These tables should desynchronize level ups, not put multi-level gaps between characters.

I have tried to argue for Your thesis, not against it, Sarex. Getting back on topic - wouldn't it be nice to have personal XP rewards for class-specific tasks? It would alter level-up time for different classes and prevent whole-party upgrade.

Maybe they failed in the balancing of the classes, but to say that xp tables where different just for the sake of complicating things doesn't ring true to me. AD&D, Dungeon Master's Guide, Chapter 3, Creating New Character Classes: You can't reconstruct the existing character classes using this method. The standard classes give players advantages over custom-designed classes. Standard class characters advance in levels more quickly and, generally, have better abilities than custom-designed characters. AD&D, Player's Handbook, Chapter 3, Class Descriptions: Experience Points measure what a character has learned and how he has improved his skill during the course of his adventures. Characters earn experience points by completing adventures and by doing things specifically related to their class. A fighter, for example, earns more experience for charging and battling a monster than does a thief, because the fighter's training emphasizes battle while thief's emphasizes stealth and cleverness. So... Thief needs less XP, because he is less likely to encounter class related challenge. Sounds reasonable, but it's doubtful that many DMs reward players differently due to character class (and no game does that). Besides these tables often have some background story behind (druid is the best example).

It was not due to the balance (or it has not been done right at least). Fighter has faster low level progression (let's say from 1st to 5th level) than Mage while already being much more powerful. Surprisingly past 5th level, when the power of Mage skyrockets, the situation becomes quite opposite. I prefer assynchronous level ups, as it spreads party power gain over time. The idea of differentiating starting exp sounds better to me than messing with progression tables. The former may not have much impact on endgame, but it is not that important then whatsoever. I belive that ICWD 2 has showed the necessity of preventing simultaneous level up - getting six-man party to new level at once is game-changing in early stages.