Mandragore
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Posts posted by Mandragore
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Off topic, but I would love to see some lovecraftian/cosmic horror elements in PE.
Yes, please! As long as it's actual lovecraftian horror, and not just "eldritch abominations". It's not about the monsters, it's about what they represent.
Cosmic nihilism, that feeling that we are all completely insignificant in the larger scheme of intergalactic existence, and that we could be wiped out at any moment just to be replaced by another species - and there is nothing we can do stop it from happening.There are no gods out there looking out for us, only the amoral and utterly indifferent aliens that created us.
I have a hard time seeing how that would fit in to the P.E. universe, though, since it's a high magic setting where gods definitely exist and probably even interact with their worshipers.
I don't see how that would be a huge problem really, it would just be more like derleth's additions to the Cthulhu mythos with some more humanized gods opposing the inscrutable elder-beings. Mostly I'd just like to see some cosmic horror themes in a fantasy game for once, madness, nihilism, alien gods, degenerate creatures from some dark pre-history period etc, rather than the "spooky" gothic horror crap these games usually saddle themselves with.
IMO vampires and werewolves are too human to really be scary or interesting anymore. Seeing as this is supposed to be a more "mature" game I think cosmic horror is the way to go; if there's going to be any horror at all that is.
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The setting seems to be pretty strongly Eastern-influenced to me. For one thing, there's the whole souls and reincarnation thing with the debate over the nature of gods (actual gods or merely very powerful reincarnated/reborn beings), which is an actual major point of contention between Hinduism and Buddhism.
For visual and architectural influences, check out the building in the wallpaper picture:
From where I'm at, that looks a lot like a (ruined) Japanese, Chinese temple, especially the hanging bells.
On the other hand, Cadegund and Edair at least are obvious Westerners, and Sagani has the feel of a Siberian nomad. It looks like the world of Eternity is culturally extremely diverse. I trust Obsidian intends to have it all mesh rather than just being a random jumble of cool-looking characters.
And I certainly don't see any problems fitting monks into the setting, whether they're "Eastern" or "Western" in flavor.
I honestly have no idea what looks eastern about this to anyone. The weapons and armor on everyone but forton (rapier, longsword, musket, platemail etc) are all pretty european looking. The ruins/dungeon/temple, whatever it is, not sure we can infer anything at this point, just looks like typical cyclopian fantasy ruins.
Besides, this thread is supposed to be about eastern vs western inspired monks, not the entire setting. I don't think anyone wants to see PE turn into some jrpg weaboo schlock fest.
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I don't think this game needs the generic gothic horror expac that has become obligatory for fantasy rpgs. How about some originality instead of more genre mashup nonsense.
Off topic, but I would love to see some lovecraftian/cosmic horror elements in PE.
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From what I've read they're people who like to dress up as humanoid-animals and in some instances have sex with one another.Then you likely haven't seen much of them, and I envy you.
Not my thing but so long as they're not harming anyone I don't see the big deal.
They're a sexual fetish subculture that believes it is extremely important that everyone on Earth should be exposed to the most graphic depictions of their sexual fantasies, and that any and all intellectual properties would be vastly improved if all the characters were anthropomorphic animals who had anatomically correct animal genitals and had graphic sex scenes.
I'm going to second this, as it describes pretty much every furry I've ever had the misfortune to encounter. Further, although they all claim its the case, I've never met one who wasn't some sort of in your face weirdo pervert with a plethora of vomit inducing fetishes that they can't wait to inform you on in graphic detail. It seems like most of the non-furries in the thread are well aware of this to. That being the case, can we just kill this abortion of a thread already? The question it asked seems to have been answered with a resounding NO.
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Would it be to much to ask that we keep the IRL religious herp derp out of this? Creepy and irrelevant.
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Would I like "anthropomorphic" races in PE? Short answer: NO.
I suspect you know my position already, so I won't elaborate any further.
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I don't think we'll have a "hated" race. Even orcs aren't hated by other orcs and "evil/lower-creatures. It doesn't make much sense to have one race take all the hate. I'd rather dwarves be hated on in specific places, humans, elves, orlans, and aumaua in other places, etc. Each one gets the "love"
I like the idea of having racism in the game, but for Aumaua I meant more that I wanted them to actually have a violent, warlike culture which resulted in such a perception, rather than just being discriminated against due to their appearance. But if thats not the case, I suppose can content myself with playing a human or dwarf who just happens to also be an insufferable ****.
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Furries or not, too many tool-making cultures **** a setting up. If there are too many of them around you ask yourself what the point of being a human is anyway, at least the other races have blue skin and ****. Next to the "core three", Orlans, Auamaua and especially Godlike feel a bit tacked-on, I just don't mind because I like to have variety when character building. Just don't overdo it and add too many sentient species that don't come naturally with the way your world is set up and consequently always feel artificial.
Fair point. This is one of the things I hate about alot of D&D settings. Its sort of lame when everyone playing a game, whether PnP or Crpg, refuses to ever roll up a human because why do that when you can play some "supr speshul" multihued monstrosity loaded with crazy innate abilities.
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Backtracking quite a bit, but personally I'm hoping the Aumaua do fill the "orc" role in some sense. I know its sort hackneyed to have an "evil" race, but I really like being able to play something that lets me be at least somewhat hated and feared from the get go rather than having to earn (or disprove) such a reputation entirely through deeds.
I like the idea of a samoan themed culture, but what about maori or maylay? Seafaring tattooed cannibal pirates FTW.
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How so? Teaching my cat to high five my hand in exchange for table scraps is hardly the same thing as holding a conversation with him. Its the difference between simple Pavlovian programming and real, mutual understanding and exchange. As people have mentioned though, this is largely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, so why don't we drop it?
It's nice to see you purposefully miss the point, several times in a row. You're presenting a false dichotomy in the form of a binary situation: either you communicate, ie. have real, mutual understanding and exchange, or you do not. This is untrue, as there are various degrees and types of communication. I'm pointing out that we communicate with other species, eg. dogs while eg. training, to show that interspecies communication is possible.
And, again, if we are able to communicate with beings of limited intelligence, then communicating with being of intelligence similar to ours would also be possible.
Jesus tapdancing christ dude. If you're totally set on embarking on dungeon crawls alongside a troop of rheesus monkeys be my guest. There are not "various degrees" of communication in the scenario we're discussing and you know that.
I'm not interested in discussing this any further, especially since seems like it might be straying into the same uncomfortable (for me anyway) territory as your "spock" comment...
Can you be more precise? Because I get the feeling that unless you get completely wild, goofy non-human species that have nothing in common with anything you know, you're not going to be pleased. The bipedal template with opposable thumbs is a logical choice for a sentient, non-human species that developed tools and a civilization, especially if they're based on certain species (eg. Wizardry's Felpurr/Rawulf/Draconian/Mook, Wizards & Warriors best species, The Elder Scrolls' Khajiit/Argonians, Wing Commander's Kilrathi etc.)
I really don't get you point, or bashing anthropomorphic design as lazy.
Stop dissembling, no one is railing against bipeds with thumbs. We just don't want furry races. Since it isn't obvious to you; the design is lazy because its apparent that rather than taking the time to craft something unique and nuanced (humanoid regardless) the dev in question just took a human body and a random (already existing) animal and mashed them together. That to my mind is what separates orcs and elves which, tired as they may be I still like, from kadjit and argonians, both of which I think are atrocious.
P.S. "Felpurr/Rawulf" I don't even know what these are or what they're from (wild guess; cat and dog people) and they even sound lazy. I hope obsidian has more sense than this.
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Training is communication.
How so? Teaching my cat to high five my hand in exchange for table scraps is hardly the same thing as holding a conversation with him. Its the difference between simple Pavlovian programming and real, mutual understanding and exchange. As people have mentioned though, this is largely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, so why don't we drop it?
So, basically, you're prejudiced towards a certain community and want Project: Eternity to reflect that prejudice. Coolio.
Yes, I am and I freely admit it. That has next to no bearing on what we're discussing though. My main objection is that its simultaneously lazy and damaging to verisimilitude to have non-human races that, rather than looking like complete, unique species, are just various animal heads tacked on to fuzz/scale covered human bodies. Add that to the fact that just from this thread alone, the idea seems to only appeal to a small subset of fans, whose personal predilections I won't speculate on, lest you accuse me of further bigotry.
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So millions of years of evolutionary divergence is the same thing as two human groups speaking different languages? That's a ridiculous comparison. Haerski pointed out some weaknesses of the concept, but I think the main objection is just that most people don't want to see a bunch of animal head-human body races which are lame looking and basically just scream lazy dev.
Keep the furry crap outa here.
It's good that Obsidian isn't "most people."
I do find it annoying that most people don't read what they respond to. If you actually read it, you'd notice that I also pointed out that humans can and do communicate with different species. If we can communicate with other animals that do not share our intelligence level but are otherwise smart (canines, birds, cats, dolphins etc.), it's only logical that we can communicate better with different species that have a similar level of intelligence.
Obsidian hasn't made any game that I'm aware of with a surfeit of animal head races, maybe you're thinking of the Elder Scrolls series, but that wasn't Obsidian. Also you're not talking about humans training animals, you're talking about two sentient species, likely with severe physiological differences, somehow communicating with each other.
Also, like I said, that isn't even the main objection here. The general consensus seems to be that such characters would be aesthetically unappealing and wouldn't add anything to the game for anyone who isn't some furry troglodyte.
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You're missing the point. A god is whatever the setting defines it as. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that "gods" exist at all. if "gods" obviously exist, however the setting defines them, then it doesn't make much sense to be an atheist. Quibbling over whether something that you agree exists is a "god" or a "demon" or deserves to be called such, isn't atheism, neither is debating the definition of "godhood"
The point you're missing is that it's unclear yet how obvious the existence of gods in PE really is. We only know that one god "communicated regularly" (mass psychosis?) and a peasant claimed to have been "a vessel" for a god. Enough room for skepticism there.
I'm well aware of this. This whole tangent has just been a "what if" so all I was saying is that I hoped the game would avoid that particular trope.
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So you would believe that they are gods because they said so and have awesome powers? Most of the Faerunian gods weren't even involved in the creation of the world, and seem rather petty...
You're nitpicking. The point is that it's an explicitly and obviously theistic universe so atheism or agnosticism wouldn't really be rational choices. Also IIRC there are one or two gods in Faerun that are pretty analogous the the gods of the major monotheistic religions here, omnipotent world creators and all that.
P.S. This is pretty much a complete digression from discussing "mature themes" so if no one objects why don't we get back on topic.
P.P.S. Also Sacred Path, what you're suggesting in your last post above isn't really atheism or skepticism its more like anti-theism, which is fine (see my comment about Hyperion) provided the gods aren't just going to up and smite/curse the poor bastard for mouthing off.
No I'm not. If aliens come to earth now would you worship them because they had awesome powers? Is Lucifer an evil god or a devil? What's the difference? A man can exist in a world where there are beings that are considered 'gods' and still believe that there is no god if he does not believe those beings are gods, he may instead consider them very powerful spirits instead. The pharaoh of Egypt considered himself an incarnation of the god Horus, but even if that had been true would that have made him a god just because?
Magic and the powers deities have in mythology are explicitly supernatural, defying natural laws etc. This is distinct from someone with strange (but natural) abilities or high technology like you're describing. You're essentially comparing things that don't actually exist (D&D magic/gods/planes etc) with things that could potentially exist and be scientifically explicable in the real world (aliens, advanced technology etc)
P.S. Just disagreeing that the omnipotent beings other people called gods should be called that (or are worthy of worship) would not make one an atheist, doubting their existence would.
The whole idea of a "god" is an abstraction invented by literature anyway. All I'm saying is that since in the universe in question "gods" however you define them, definitely exist, doubting their existence would be pretty stupid.
Ah, so you're saying a wizard is a god then! The point that just because something has immense power and calls itself a god does not mean that it is a god. Saying that it is a god because the setting says it's a god is misses the opportunity to explore the definition of godhood. Our own world had very different standards of godhood between cultures from the greek family of gods to the all-powerful Abrahamic god, and they would often argue over whose were the actual god(s) and whose were demons, who says PE does not have the same?
You're missing the point. A god is whatever the setting defines it as. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that "gods" exist at all. if "gods" obviously exist, however the setting defines them, then it doesn't make much sense to be an atheist. Quibbling over whether something that you agree exists is a "god" or a "demon" or deserves to be called such, isn't atheism, neither is debating the definition of "godhood"
All I'm saying is that the idea of a character who doubts the existence of god/gods in a universe where there is obvious physical proof of their existence is stupid. Its one thing if he doubts their motives or that they are what they say they are, thats fine, but don't have him pontificating about how "thats just a myth" with zeus or whoever standing right behind him.
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And what if the monks were based on the Japanese Sōhei (warrior monks) instead?
Much more original, not to mention probable. Their weapon of choice was the pictured Naginata, but they also used spears, staves, swords and bows.
I like this idea. Makes more sense that just beating their bare fists against platemail all the time. They should be able to use unarmed, but also edged weapons when the situation calls for it.
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I don't want PE to become some kind of freak show. Too many and too outlandish races do just that and secondly insectoids and such never make much sense as playable characters. What's the probability that two completely different paths of evolution somehow end up being able to speak same language? And if they don't speak same language, then how could creature evolved from some spider or lizard communicate with humans so it doesn't affect gameplay too much? And how could they live among us in society designed for humans, cause I'm pretty sure no one wants to see humanoids with animal heads anymore?
By your logic, eg. Europeans would never be able to communicate with people outside their continent (or even country). And yet they did. Interspecies communication is possible, you just need a comparable level of intelligence. The process wouldn't be easy, sure, but it's definitely not impossible.
Furthermore, you honestly fail to see the potential for conflict and interesting writing here? The problem of assimilating non-human species? The interaction between humans and them? I'm working on something similar by now and it's fascinating to explore, the alien cultures, different societies etc.
So millions of years of evolutionary divergence is the same thing as two human groups speaking different languages? That's a ridiculous comparison. Haerski pointed out some weaknesses of the concept, but I think the main objection is just that most people don't want to see a bunch of animal head-human body races which are lame looking and basically just scream lazy dev.
Keep the furry crap outa here.
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And of course once you've discovered furries seeing any kind of humanoid animal just sort of makes you nauseous.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
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You're conflating a sci-fi setting which is supposed to be the product of thousands of years of globalization with a fantasy setting where travel and cross-cultural exchange would be much more limited.
We have no idea of their capabilities of travel, be the mundane or magic. More to the point, actual, real migration be they slow trickles or large also happened without the aid of modern technology. Migration is not, I repeat, not a difficult concept to grasp, and it's been happening throughout Human history. You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that cultural mingling and fusion can only happen in reality or specific settings, as if it would somehow be impossible in a Fantasy - despite more than a few having done so, I even gave an example of one.
I think you're confusing my post with someone else's, I never said anything about migration. Migration is something else entirely. If you're talking about these hypothetical Asian people migrating to the main continent as an explanation for monks, first off you need a reason for them to have migrated. Second, why wouldn't they have been consumed by the local culture or vice versa as happens so often in history?
In Firely I'm pretty sure the explanation for Asian stuff everywhere is the oft posited idea of future economic hegemony by Asian nations, primarily china, not that a bunch of Asian people randomly migrated to Europe and North America before humans left earth. All that aside I don't think that level of cultural mingling is good for a fantasy setting. It removes all the fun/mystery from travelling to exotic locales and meeting people from them.
Additionally FYI we know there is a 16th century level of technology in the game which in real world terms means limited (but not impossible) travel. Unless magic users in the game have accurate, globe trotting teleportation, (which IMO is unlikely) you wouldn't have safe regular travel between distant continents.
I still I think the monk should be Asian (or from and Asian themed foreign culture) to preserve the coherence of the archetype and to play up the exotic nature of the class and its abilities, but I would rather have him as a solitary traveler whose culture and background are something interesting that we can uncover.
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I don't really see what the problem is, as long as we're talking about rare supernatural beings rather than playable races.
I was under the impression that we were talking about a race of mortal humanoids that the PC would interact and trade with, not rare or unique supernatural beings. All I'm saying if you have civilizations of elephant and pig men running around the PC is going to have to watch what he eats and rides...
What if our real life animals could be an intelligent species in P:E? Maybe there are no [Elephant]* Animals at all, or Birds, Pigs etc. etc. but other new fantasy animals take their place *shrug* <- not important but for argument's sake that's one way to do it
*[insert creature]
No offense but that sounds pretty lame, I want to be able to swat forest critters for xp without worrying about some vigilante moose shanking me in my sleep. No sentient animals please.
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I don't want PE to become some kind of freak show. Too many and too outlandish races do just that and secondly insectoids and such never make much sense as playable characters. What's the probability that two completely different paths of evolution somehow end up being able to speak same language? And if they don't speak same language, then how could creature evolved from some spider or lizard communicate with humans so it doesn't affect gameplay too much? And how could they live among us in society designed for humans, cause I'm pretty sure no one wants to see humanoids with animal heads anymore?
There could be and I'm sure there will be weirder tribes of creatures as non-playable race in some corner of the world, but making them playable would probably just end up to ridiculous mongrel of human and animal features to somehow justify their presence in society and fit them in gameplay mechanics.
I agree that it makes no sense from an evolutionary standpoint. I was actually thinking they could be demons or other extra-planar folk. I was also thinking more along the lines of getting one anachronistic individual as a party member rather than as a choice for the race of your personally created PC.
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So you would believe that they are gods because they said so and have awesome powers? Most of the Faerunian gods weren't even involved in the creation of the world, and seem rather petty...
You're nitpicking. The point is that it's an explicitly and obviously theistic universe so atheism or agnosticism wouldn't really be rational choices. Also IIRC there are one or two gods in Faerun that are pretty analogous the the gods of the major monotheistic religions here, omnipotent world creators and all that.
P.S. This is pretty much a complete digression from discussing "mature themes" so if no one objects why don't we get back on topic.
P.P.S. Also Sacred Path, what you're suggesting in your last post above isn't really atheism or skepticism its more like anti-theism, which is fine (see my comment about Hyperion) provided the gods aren't just going to up and smite/curse the poor bastard for mouthing off.
No I'm not. If aliens come to earth now would you worship them because they had awesome powers? Is Lucifer an evil god or a devil? What's the difference? A man can exist in a world where there are beings that are considered 'gods' and still believe that there is no god if he does not believe those beings are gods, he may instead consider them very powerful spirits instead. The pharaoh of Egypt considered himself an incarnation of the god Horus, but even if that had been true would that have made him a god just because?
Magic and the powers deities have in mythology are explicitly supernatural, defying natural laws etc. This is distinct from someone with strange (but natural) abilities or high technology like you're describing. You're essentially comparing things that don't actually exist (D&D magic/gods/planes etc) with things that could potentially exist and be scientifically explicable in the real world (aliens, advanced technology etc)
P.S. Just disagreeing that the omnipotent beings other people called gods should be called that (or are worthy of worship) would not make one an atheist, doubting their existence would.
The whole idea of a "god" is an abstraction invented by literature anyway. All I'm saying is that since in the universe in question "gods" however you define them, definitely exist, doubting their existence would be pretty stupid.
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That elephant guy just looks silly. I think minor races that are too obviously descended from or related to real world animals are a horrible idea. How is the elephant samurai going to feel if I decide to moonlight as an ivory poacher? Is the Pig-man going to try to jihad me for eating bacon? The whole thing just gets absurd.
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Since this is a new IP, how about a few extra races who aren't just humans of varying size with/without pointy ears and hairy feet?
I feel like many of the playable races in games are simply too human-like. Let's mix it up a little bit. How about intelligent beings evolved from other mammal and non-mammal species? Insectoids? Arachnids? Avians? Reptiles? Amphibians? Crustaceans?
I think it would be cool to see how an insect or arachnid society would evolve. They could end up with vastly different values and ethics from their more human-like counterparts.
For the love of gawd no furry stuff please. Some predatory insect people might be a nice change from the usual orc equivalent "evil race" though.
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So you would believe that they are gods because they said so and have awesome powers? Most of the Faerunian gods weren't even involved in the creation of the world, and seem rather petty...
You're nitpicking. The point is that it's an explicitly and obviously theistic universe so atheism or agnosticism wouldn't really be rational choices. Also IIRC there are one or two gods in Faerun that are pretty analogous the the gods of the major monotheistic religions here, omnipotent world creators and all that.
P.S. This is pretty much a complete digression from discussing "mature themes" so if no one objects why don't we get back on topic.
P.P.S. Also Sacred Path, what you're suggesting in your last post above isn't really atheism or skepticism its more like anti-theism, which is fine (see my comment about Hyperion) provided the gods aren't just going to up and smite/curse the poor bastard for mouthing off.
Anthropomorphic animal races in Project Eternity?
in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted
Off topic, but I just realized what your profile pick is from. You have god-tier taste in graphic novels my friend.
Now lets exterminatus this thread already before it fills up with more furry sockpuppets...