Odd Hermit

I kind of wonder how Cipher's Biting Whip factors into the War vs. Hunting Bow situation. I have an Island Aumaua cipher build that uses 2 guns then switches to Hunting Bow. I'm not using Penetrating Shot and the damage still seems pretty decent even on higher DR stuff. I've got 21 might on the character though.

I found this only true at higher levels. Melee seems way more dependent on talents and abilities to come into their own. And it's generally still easier to play collect the enemies around the tank and bomb them. I have gone through with some melee heavy groups, and the beetles are a huge PITA early on. You also need more support/healing for them than you do casters, and casters bring their own - the best offensive caster(druids are just overpowered) has pretty strong healing and support spells.

I would honestly love that but it all depends on, as you say, appropriate encounter design. The better the AI, the less advantage in other ways (numbers, stat boosts, etc.) the enemies need. That said I'm not expecting that level of AI at all. I just want some very, very basic scripted priorities and common sense behaviors. The game has an auto-pause option for when you're attack an enemy with too high deflection for your accuracy level to do much of anything to, what if mobs had a script where they'd realize it's pointless to pile on the tank? I'm fine with that behavior from things like beetles, but a group of humanoid enemies with balanced composition(Medreth's group, the Skaen, the egg bandit group, etc.) should behave more intelligently. It's a combat balance thing but also an immersion thing. I originally liked the idea of engagement because I thought the AI would do things like this. Same, I still think engagement has potential and can be saved.

I'm not feeling the symbiosis. Also, no an all ranged party wouldn't get trashed. I know for a fact you can do hard difficulty NP without any melee at all. There's melee damage builds, and then there's melee tank builds. You only really want one or two of the latter to keep casters alive right now, but even that isn't a necessity it just makes it a lot easier. Of course you can potentially solo the content with some classes as well, but for the sake of argument I'm excluding cheesy approaches like constantly resetting combat after gibbing things with leadsplitter.

So I've covered my issues with the defense/deflection system already, which somewhat plays into this. First off, let's just put out the one big disclaimer: Melee builds are generally a bit more survivable than casters. However, a damage focused melee vs. a damage focused caster isn't that major, at least as you get up to mid-higher levels. Except maybe the poor Wizard. The main problems with them right now are - #1. Melee take more AoE damage, and AoE damage is scary in this game. Being around the tank you "pull" enemies with isn't very safe. I've had Adra beetles kill the other beetles around my tank and fared better than having my characters in melee helping said tank(they'd get wrecked by lightning). #2. Melee engage things. Things engage back. A caster can throw a lot of damage around without getting targeted back, and generally the enemies on your 1-2 very durable characters won't break off and come after said caster. Same is not true for melee, and melee DPS can still be taken down rather quickly. #3. Melee suffer from disengagement attacks if they want to switch targets or position themselves. Casters can move about more freely, assuming they haven't done something dumb like be in melee range and get engaged. These three weaknesses add up to, IMO, more than cancel out the small durability advantage a melee damage focused fighter, paladin, chanter, monk has over a Druid, Wizard, or Cipher. And then there's rogues, who are about the same durability. Which is why guns are a good idea for rogues... So, engagement was originally intended to prevent kiting, right? It was to make life harder for casters, to counteract their advantages. But right now, as long as you keep your casters at a distance, they're often just not even targeted by enemies. Melee gets into a cluster, casters bomb the cluster using their extra AoE from int to avoid friendly fire. Engagement has ended up making life harder for melee damage dealers. At the very least I'd say the AI needs some tweaks so that un-engaged melee enemies won't keep attacking a 100+deflection tank when there's a 40 deflection Druid spamming Blizzards on them. Also, I'd simply up the durability for melee builds a bit.

Most that I've tried to use together didn't work. Just tested and you can have Cautious Attack and the DoMP Deflection active at the same time, but you only get the highest Deflection source as I kind of expected. You can combine DoMP Other Defenses with it though, so I guess it's actually a pretty solid choice for saves. And after fiddling with a fighter with tons of modal talents to check, I have to say they really need to work on their in game descriptions for these. There's just nothing at all to tell you which are mutually exclusive, which can be active at the same time for some odd reason but don't stack their benefits, and those that can actually be successfully combined. The only one that seems to be capable of stacking with others that you might want at the same time is Vulnerable Attack, but I'm kinda "meh" about it since it seems like it scales poorly. And Paladin Zealous Modals apparently combine with anything except eachother which makes sense, didn't know that. I feel bad now as I believe I told someone you can't stack them with other modals at some point. :/

That would be very frustrating to learn after leveling up. Yeah, although in fairness, +10 to Fort/Ref/Will is pretty good bang for your buck. Modals are the strongest offensive and defense talents, but you can only have one active. So it's an opportunity cost. Can't have DT penetration, +15 Deflection, x1.2 melee damage, etc. etc. active at same time so it has to be weighed against those, not other talents that give less but aren't a modal. The one good thing is it gives you two modals that you can choose between, and it'd allow some flexibility vs. enemy types. If you're facing casters, the Fort/Reflex/Will may come in handy more than deflection. And of course, no penalty to attack speed from the +8 Deflection. However, deflection is worth more and more the higher you get it, so -7 can be a pretty substantial loss if you're building a tank character. Also, it's from the Monk ability pool, not the regular talent pool. So you miss out on some other powerful abilities, while often with talents there's nothing amazing to pick up after you get your basics. I would take it if were available @ level 2 though, when you have to pick between Torment's Reach and Swift Strikes. I'd rather spend all my Wounds on Force of Anguish.

They'd have to tweak duration and just end up making it like an inn's bonus. Or they'd have to get more in depth and make food durations vary as well as food spoilage and/or portability. Which I don't see happening as it's not a survival game where that kind of in-depth consumable system adds to the gameplay substantially.

I'm going to spend a lot of time on release date alt tabbed and answering random questions when all the non-beta people flood forums and such with their confusion.

I kinda assumed different inns would give different bonuses. On the wiki, as outdated as it is, it lists some inns and some even give skill bonuses rather than attributes.

Portrait in question: This is bugging me, because I want to play an aumaua PC and use this portrait, but it doesn't fit at all with the models due to the beard. But I like the beard. I would prefer the fix to this be that we get beard options, rather than losing that portrait or having this poor dude's beard removed.

I think this is a bit off. Precision can be achieved with large weapons. Pike is a good example, you could poke someone's eye out with a Pike. They just need to do some tuning for each individual weapon IMO, if they want to make them all interesting and fairly well balanced at the same time. I'd like to see special active attacks and unique capabilities/bonuses for some weapons. I wouldn't aim too much for realism though, considering we're using weapons that IRL were designed to fight people and not crazy fantasy monstrous things. Personally, I would never want to be in a situation where I'm attacking an ogre or a dragon with a dagger.

Was just thinking it's a bit funny that Pale Elves have Burn DR and Fire Godlike don't.

The high alpha and weapon swap potential to skip reloads pushes them even further ahead. Faster weapons really should do more DPS than the high single shot weapons to make up for that. Even if the DPS was equal I'd still choose the high single damage shot. Especially since it can mean instantly killing some enemies before they can react or get support/heals from their group.

Alright using exact attributes and building purely defensively, skipping some gear for the sake of testing the build and not equipment: @ Level 7 (hired by my level 8 solo Rogue) Deflection: Paladin: 122 (in combat) Monk: 117 Defenses: Paladin: 52 / 94 / 72 Monk: Fort 42 / Reflex 84 / Will 62 Using Fine Mace + Fine Large Shield w/Plate Armor First Test - Solo vs. Skaen Cultist, Guard, and 2x Skaen Sentry: Monk is the clear winner, killing 3/4 of the enemies and then getting whittled down by the guard whose Fighter stamina Regen just kept him alive against the Monk's weak damage due to the defensive build. I reckon Monk could've pulled it off had I had a second weapon set to kill the Guard without the big accuracy penalty for Large Shield. Paladin tanked them for a good while and then got KOed with all of them alive. Granted, this fight favor's Monk's Soul Mirror reflecting, as my Monk killed an Archer without even hitting him. Second Test - Solo vs. Skaen Fanatic, 2x Guard, Cultist, Sentry Paladin: Survives for awhile longer, KOed. Nearly KOed the Cultist in melee once Monk: Goes down faster than Paladin each time, but occasionally kills the archer and/or cultist before doing so. Paladin's save advantage I think is the biggest thing here. My Monk got debuffed a fair amount more often making it a bit more random how well he did. Getting affected by fewer debuffs, the Paladin stays at higher deflection longer. Paladin could also pack a Liberating Exhortation in the build potentially. Conclusions: Paladins are certainly tankier, at the extremes of building. Monk AoE and Single Target damage is better, and they're stronger vs. archers due to Soul Mirror. This probably isn't quite the way I'd build either of these classes in the game though, with the Monk not using high might or taking offensive abilities and the Paladin not using his Zealous Focus or Endurance to buff the party, since in combat you'll have support/buffs from other party members to factor in. However, a Paladin brings more party support via Exhortations. Paladin can potentially also pull further head I believe as a PC if you get bonuses to your Faith and Conviction. OTOH a Monk will add more damage output on single targets as well as help clear out grouped weaker enemies faster with their AoE. Monk is still good, but I'd say Paladin is the optimal choice if choosing a single extremely defensive tank for your party.

In retrospect I think it may have had something to do with playing at 2 am with a bottle of Teacher's. Yeah who knows. I'll admit I haven't used 100% consistent circumstances testing the two. My Monk I went through with a much weaker party overall, but that party had more melee that may've factored into him being flanked less and so on. Duality of Mortal Presence, which IMO isn't a good choice over Cautious Attack. And the AoE when they get a wound is Rooting Pain, which does crush damage and "possibly calling an interrupt on all enemies in the area of effect". I've considered that Rooting Pain might be what gives Monk what feels like a mysterious amount of extra mitigation, if it interrupts frequently enough. I'm going to fiddle with a save w/a Paladin and Monk tank vs. the same group of enemies tonight and feel it out.

In the BB at least after a certain point it's overkill. Paladins are the best if you want to stack deflect as high as possible though, it's true. Though you have to give up a Paladin modal to use Cautious Attack.

Hmmm. I dunno why it would be significantly worse than a Paladin or Fighter. Here's my end stats - Fire Godlike Monk: http://i.imgur.com/idWY3t4.jpg Orlan Paladin: http://i.imgur.com/CzQdlig.jpg Paladin has higher deflect but of course, he has higher perception and resolve and is using a hatchet and large shield which is +15 right there. Monk I could've pushed higher but they benefit from taking a bit more damage and having higher accuracy to make use of their offensive capabilities.

I think of Spiritshift as basically the Druid's longevity ability. Priests and Wizards get some per encounter abilities, Druid gets shifting. The problem is that they kind of make Spiritshift out to be a bigger part of the class and have talents for it that just aren't worth getting for a temporary ability that's more of a trash clearer or backup plan than something you want to pull in a serious fight(where you'll be busy freezing stuff). Then again, Priests can spend 3 talents on a 1/encounter ability as well that lasts only like 10-20 seconds(interdiction). Interdiction is good though I wish they'd make it base just to shave off one of those talents. So I don't mind shifting too much where it is right now, a few tweaks could help such as +1 accuracy /level to keep up with weapon enchants a bit better. It's not useless anymore which is a big improvement. If they organized casting more they could make more interesting build options where a shifter build w/more limited spells but unlimited shifting and shift duration could be a thing, but while you get full spell access I agree it'd be too much if spiritshift approached fighter or rogue kind of melee capability.

Wymund downed: http://i.imgur.com/UoCvOnL.jpg Ranger pet didn't even die! Final party: Monk Tank/Damage build as described in OP, which I still like even though it takes mid levels+to really pick up. Barbarian w/2h talents. Not that bad really, the AoE range is better than I thought although it can look a bit silly at times when you're using a thrusting weapon and randomly damaging things in an impossible AoE for it. He did get knocked out the most times of anyone in any party I've used but hey, he has enough of a health pool to not perma-die! I think the main issue is it's not worth using some of their early abilities, none have quite the impact a simple knockdown from a fighter has. Chanter, which I didn't get as much out of this time since most of my damage wasn't /rest so summoning stuff wasn't a big party of my chain pulling strategy. Plus, I picked the Wurms over the Will-O'-Wisps which just weren't as good. Ranger which is definitely the worst class in my experience so far. Rogue is better @ melee, better at range, and better for utility and CC. Priest. I just like Priests in this game. They have some fun spells and feel well balanced relative to the Wizard and Druid. Cipher. Ciphers are a nice Rogue alternative, you can gib a target or two w/blunderbuss+arquebus or a second blunder if you find one, and then instead of reloading just start casting stuff and messing with people's minds with your bajillion focus from the crazy gun damage. I definitely would replace Ranger and Barbarian with Paladin and Druid though. Not having Liberating Exhortation is kind of sucky at times. And of course, Druids just rain frosty death on everything and have backup support/heals.

Barbarian has now pulled ahead of Ranger substantially. Once I grabbed the Exception Estoc he really came into his own. Plus, the spider fights were super favorable to AoE melee damage. Also added a Priest to the party, keeping everyone alive a lot better. I've been trying different ranged weapons for ranger but so far with Vicious Aim Hunting Bow seems best, w/enchants to make it's damage good. However, bows just kind of suck even if Ranger is the best class to use them. The pet is also just too often not playing any significant part in battles. Occasionally gets KOed and then my ranger is nerfed. Maybe I've got a too-melee heavy party for a ranger though, it just gets too clustery. Monk is holding up pretty well, and now starting to deal some real damage. I went Scion of Flame instead of Lesser Wounds and I'm still managing to gain enough to build up my burn damage. 5 burn DR probably does hurt either, it's a common damage type.

Soul Mirror is poorly phrased, but I think what it actually does is reflect 50% of missed shots, so it doesn't really add to tankiness (except in the sense that ranged characters die faster). I'm getting the sense that nothing about the monk is accurately described in game, heh.

Have been going with a Monk/Chanter/Barbarian/Ranger party to really put this build to the test. What I've found is that early game, monk is definitely a little more lackluster. A Paladin or Fighter with basic early deflection talents is better than a Monk stuck with just Swift Strikes and Torment's Reach + deflection talents. Monk definitely relies more on talent/ability progression. That said, I ran my Paladins and Fighters in a more powerful group so it's hard to judge. I have no strong AoE since I took a Barbarian instead of a real AoE class... Chanters of course are still good, just needing some stam restoration in the party and went with that, didn't want to crutch on priest spells while really trialing these builds. I took Thrice Was Wronged though and I think it was overnerfed. It seems really poor now for the cost of 3 chants, often I'm better off simply spending that time continuing to auto-attack. Barbarian feels pretty weak and a bit thrown together. My least played class and I don't feel I'm missing much at least yet. The AoE melee damage is mediocre at best and the damage output on single targets isn't great either. Fighter and Rogue have better debuffs in knock down, cripple, blind. I'm using a 2h, maybe I should be dual wielding. I haven't committed talents to either one yet so I'll try dual wield soon. Ranger isn't as bad as I'd expected. I'm opening with a crossbow, swapping to a hunting bow with vicious aim. Vicious Aim seems like a strong modal. It's surprisingly decent and my ranger is top damage so far. The pet feels like a liability at times, but I chose wolf so I get him in/out in a hurry. Mostly I see it as a flanking utility, I put it behind targets my melee are on for that -10 deflection. I occasionally get something set on attacking it and micro the wolf around in circles keeping one enemy sort-of CCed in a roundabout way too. It's tedious but it works, dude is super fast. Still wouldn't pick a Ranger over other ranged options though but we'll see how it plays at higher levels.

Good to know. I think the interrupting and missile reflect probably adds up too. And the damage output is so much better than a Paladin tank.

Monk dps hard but they r too squishy to tank. However they NEED to get damaged in order to charge their abilities, so they r not overwhelmingly strong. They're not too squishy to tank if you build them as a tank. The temptation is to go lighter on defenses to get more wounds but you shouldn't, really. I'm not sure they're overpowered. They do better damage than a Paladin, but lack the support abilities that Paladin has which are quite good, particularly Liberating Exhortation.