[What attribute bonuses should have been]

 

 

 

 As a result most characters focus on might and int, except for a couple of builds.  Why should all potent mages, priests, ciphers, archers, all damage dealers look like arnold schwartzenhager? 

Here's your problem. Might is not strength. Having a high might does not mean you have big, hardcore muscles.

 

But thats not how the game plays it out, like in scripted events such as the one I mentioned above.  Despite the appreciated conan referrence above,  Physical str is different than mental fortitude and one stat to represent two concepts that are normally diametrically opposed is clunky.

 

The scripting is bad, yes. I'm pretty sure that is just budget and time issues, IMHO. The background is very clear that might measures physical strength and spiritual strength--it's not muscle, it's not mental fortitude, it's a measure of raw *power*.

 

For example, Harry Dresden would have a very high Might.

 

*sigh*

 

Okay. I'll bite. If Might is a measure of "soul power," why don't all of your party members have gobs of it by dint of being the protagonists of the story? If you have a Might of 3, does that mean you are diffuse and ineffectual? Because you're not. You're the only ones besides the villain who ever actually do anything in the story.

 

The kind of power you're talking about is the will to power, the ability to get things done and impose your will upon the universe, which in most stories protagonists and (especially) antagonists possess in droves while everyone else is lacking in it.

 

You are applying an ineffable quality to a stat when the only thing that might be said to accurately represent that quality is your character level: the sum of your experiences and hardships suffered and trials overcome, and the potential you possess to do even more. That is why when characters gain level, they're generally said to become more powerful.

 

 

Wow. You would not believe how high my brow just crinkled right now, reading that there sentence.

 

Firearms and psychics were relatively rare in some parts of the Forgotten Realms. I would imagine most tabletop campaigns would not necessarily include them. That said, have you ever heard of a mind flayer? Or a psionicist? Or a soulknife (the class ciphers are based on)? Drizzt Do'urden, the Forgotten Realms poster child, tangled with both psychics and guns on his wacky adventures. He even had a weird little soliliquy once after watching a ship blow up, thinking to himself that with enough gunpowder you could blow up the world.

 

Ehh... I don't consider mindflayers to be in the same category as ciphers (or empaths or whatever else). They're inherently magical creatures. When I say psychic, I mean the entirely non-magical kind. You might have a point with psionicist, not sure.

 

Gunpowder isn't the same as guns. LotR had gunpowder, but Frodo definitely wasn't packing heat.

 

 

The "psychic powers" in Pillars are even less theoretically non-magical than the ones in D&D, since their powers explicitly come from the same source as what everyone else uses. Which is magic.

[Thoughts from the End of the Game]

 

 

So why are you speculating about the ending then? <_<

 

Well, I was rambling about some of the thoughts I was having, yes. Really I was asking people who their favorite companion was by the end of the game, though.

 

 

Hard to answer you properly on that seeing as the ending shows what happens after.

 

 

Did the epilogue actually change how you felt about any of the companions?

[What attribute bonuses should have been]

 

 

The system is radically different from D&D. The setting is radically different from D&D. The only thing that's PoE shares with D&D is vancian magic, some class names, and the fact that everyone has 6 main stats.

 

 

"D&D" is not a setting. Technically Planescape, Eberron, and Greyhawk are all "D&D" settings, if you choose to play games of D&D set in those worlds.

 

Mechanically, the biggest difference between D&D and Pillars is the fact that Pillars uses a d% instead of a d20 to randomize outcomes. Numenera, which uses the d20, is more different from D&D than Pillars is.

 

It's not a bad thing. It is what they were aiming for when they pitched the Kickstarter. Keep in mind that this game only exists because people were willing to back up their nostalgia for Baldur's Gate with serious cash. Everyone would be angry if they shipped, say, a first-person action-RPG a la Skyrim, or even an isometric-ish turn-based RPG with drastically different mechanics a la Divinity: Original Sin.

 

re: setting, yeah I know but no D&D video game has been set in anything resembling PoE's setting. Forgotten Realms, being the biggest example, didn't have firearms or psychics.

 

 

Wow. You would not believe how high my brow just crinkled right now, reading that there sentence.

 

Firearms and psychics were relatively rare in some parts of the Forgotten Realms. I would imagine most tabletop campaigns would not necessarily include them. That said, have you ever heard of a mind flayer? Or a psionicist? Or a soulknife (the class ciphers are based on)? Drizzt Do'urden, the Forgotten Realms poster child, tangled with both psychics and guns on his wacky adventures. He even had a weird little soliliquy once after watching a ship blow up, thinking to himself that with enough gunpowder you could blow up the world.

[PoE story grand erotism (spoiler)]

Umm, what do you mean by that

 

I notice this is another story where the strong, clever male villain (Thaos) is using a female character (Woedicca) for his own devices while she thinks she is the scheming power behind the throne (or trying to get on the throne, anyway)

This thread is too pretentious for my tastes, but that made me raise my eyebrows and have to reply:

 

What the heck you are talking about? Thaos sees Woedica as ally to help keep world ignorant and Woedica sees Thaos as her servant to get more power <_< Thaos isn't using Woedica, where you got that idea from?

 

Woedica needs Thaos. Thaos doesn't need her. He doesn't actually seem to need anyone, really, since he can teleport anywhere he wants whenever he wants to do whatever he wants. He renders the entire Act taking place in Defiance Bay pointless by just possessing an animancer to murder the Duc, after you went through a bunch of quests to prevent animancers from being framed. Always good to know player actions matter.

 

Anyway, I, at least, am being mostly facetious in this thread. But then again, what is art??

[What attribute bonuses should have been]

 

 

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your suggestion, but I appreciate that Obsidian is trying something original, rather than copying D&D or some other existing system.

 

 

Exactly, that's why there are Fighters, Priests, Rogues, Wizards, Druids, Rangers, etc..

 

If you want original mechanics, play something like Divinity: Original Sin (or don't because I hate that game, but hey, everyone else seems to love it). Pillars of Eternity is by design Obsidian's take on D&D, not something 100% cut from whole cloth.

 

The system is radically different from D&D. The setting is radically different from D&D. The only thing that's PoE shares with D&D is vancian magic, some class names, and the fact that everyone has 6 main stats.

 

 

"D&D" is not a setting. Technically Planescape, Eberron, and Greyhawk are all "D&D" settings, if you choose to play games of D&D set in those worlds.

 

Mechanically, the biggest difference between D&D and Pillars is the fact that Pillars uses a d% instead of a d20 to randomize outcomes. Numenera, which uses the d20, is more different from D&D than Pillars is.

 

It's not a bad thing. It is what they were aiming for when they pitched the Kickstarter. Keep in mind that this game only exists because people were willing to back up their nostalgia for Baldur's Gate with serious cash. Everyone would be angry if they shipped, say, a first-person action-RPG a la Skyrim, or even an isometric-ish turn-based RPG with drastically different mechanics a la Divinity: Original Sin.

[PoE story grand erotism (spoiler)]

Interesting. So what is the game trying to say, do you think? Is the subtext that Thaos, as the father figure, has weak seed resulting in lifeless offspring, and must be usurped in a contest of potency? Raedric seems to begin a recurring theme of fathers seeking to compensate for their weakness through brutality and violence (look at the Duc being tempted to blame animancers for Waidwen's Legacy). The mothers, on the other hand, seem to have no active role at all in what's going on--they are silenced through murder (Raedric's wife) or societal pressure (Lady Webb).

 

Is the game hostile towards women? I notice this is another story where the strong, clever male villain (Thaos) is using a female character (Woedicca) for his own devices while she thinks she is the scheming power behind the throne (or trying to get on the throne, anyway). Durance constantly spews misogynistic vitriol. The goddesses are all evil scheming shrews except for the most feminine and passive one, Hylea, who needs the player's help to get rid of a dragon in her own temple.

 

Does Pillars covet the power of the... well, you know (the actual word is apparently censored)? It's right there in the title, "Pillars." Grieving Mother, who you would think would be the real hero of the story (being a magical midwife in a land afflicted by a magical problem involving childbirth) is passive, effeminate, and ineffectual; the protagonist, who is just some schmuck with a sword (or a really big gun, even better) who spends most of their time asking people questions must solve the problem. The terminology of plugging a hole with some sort of key comes up once or twice (I'm thinking of Rymrgand's quest in particular). Notice that even though Thaos is basically a child-murderer on a grand scale, the people of the world are apparently helpless before him--only the protagonist, the prodigal son, can challenge him, and that only to usurp his place as father figure.

 

Does it matter that you can play as a female character? How much does that change the subtext? Is it an empowering story if read as a woman with the support of male and female friends who defeats an oppressive patriarchal figure in order to liberate both herself and her country?

 

Let's discuss these issues.

[Thoughts from the End of the Game]

Not sure if being basically evil Oppenhaimer makes him a war criminal, I find it more interesting that he last member of chapter of Magran's church that basically believes in punishing people by lighting them on fire Basically saying, being one of twelve to create Godhammer by Magran's orders isn't really the most messed up thing about him

 

Plus his story concludes by him wanting to get revenge on the goddess, that makes him rather metal on top of his Rasputin look and burning stuff

 

I was talking more about his participation in the Purges.

[What attribute bonuses should have been]

 

In my humble opinion (30+ years of running table top rpgs), I would have done something more along the lines of this:

 

• (Something that looks like most other RPGs made in the last 30 years)

 

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your suggestion, but I appreciate that Obsidian is trying something original, rather than copying D&D or some other existing system.

 

 

Exactly, that's why there are Fighters, Priests, Rogues, Wizards, Druids, Rangers, etc..

 

If you want original mechanics, play something like Divinity: Original Sin (or don't because I hate that game, but hey, everyone else seems to love it). Pillars of Eternity is by design Obsidian's take on D&D, not something 100% cut from whole cloth.

[Why does fan of flames do so much damage?]

"I hate thing because it was different in D&D".

 

No, actually, when we're talking about Wizard spells we're talking about one of the aspects of Pillars that is taken from D&D pretty much wholesale, except for the changes they made to try and nerf them (no more summon spells, no buffing outside of combat). Except they made burning hands far more powerful (multiply AoE by x2 or x3, average damage by more than x20, depending on your Intellect and Might) and drastically weakened fireball (reduce range to 10m, divide AoE by half).

[Thoughts from the End of the Game]

You could have just put that question in the title though

(BTW you find Pallegrine at Ondra's gift and Hirovius at Stormwall Gorge. Yeah, I know, you didn't ask that either, but I decided to point it out since it sounds like you skipped lot of stuff)

 

I'll play through the game properly, I just didn't feel like waiting for them to fix the game before finishing the Cipher playthrough I started.

 

 

Anyhoo, my favourite is actually Durance because I find his sanctimonious preacher/cranky offensive grandpa thing funny, plus he has interesting backstory and its fun to throw flaming pillars on enemies aka hes pretty useful in combat

 

Your thoughts on Durance being a war criminal?

[Why does fan of flames do so much damage?]

 

Says who? Your pompous bold italic text?

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that it is already balanced by virtue of requiring you to be four whole levels higher to cast it. It doesn't need to have its effects nerfed to make up for the advantages it offers in comparison to fan of flames.

[Consequences of Raedric's Hold]

Well, even if he isn't crazy, his idea of how to solve the problem is really bad idea <_<

 

He arrived at it through rational methods: he tried animancers in addition to his spiritual advisors. When all else (including murder) failed he turned to the gods. It's not his fault that he doesn't know about the villain of the game's silly, pointless sceme to take over the world or whatever. It doesn't make him not a horrible person, but it does demonstrate that he's got all his faculties.

[Why does fan of flames do so much damage?]

The advantage comes from Fireball being easier to position for. You can keep your Wiz in his usual spot in the back and fling a FyeBawl just far enough of your front line to still envelop most mobs. With Fan I have to take a risk in moving my Wiz round the sides to flank which makes him vulnerable.

 

Fireball is a third level spell. It should not be balanced against a first level spell. That is not how balance works.

[Thoughts from the End of the Game]

So why are you speculating about the ending then? <_<

 

Well, I was rambling about some of the thoughts I was having, yes. Really I was asking people who their favorite companion was by the end of the game, though.

[Why does fan of flames do so much damage?]

Josh Sawyer designed it that because it's harder to land a Fan of Flames than a Fireball, thus it should do more damaged. he mentioned this during a tumbler or twitter response IIRC.

 

Ooooh, okay, so that's how balance works. When you're balancing a first level spell against a third level one, the third level one should be inferior to compensate for being potentially more difficult to cast without catching your party members in it.

[Why does fan of flames do so much damage?]

I don't know. Why does nearly every monster in the game inflict a status ailment that weakens your Deflection if not cripple you outright with its basic attack? In a game where even a partial hit inflicts said status ailment in full force? And then allow you to summon such a monster of your own? Seriously, forget Fan of Flames, the summoned Phantom can solo most encounters through stunlock.

[What attribute bonuses should have been]

I agree with you, but nobody kicked 4 million bucks towards either of us to make a video game, so maybe we're the ones who are crazy.

[No EXP from killing MOB?]

It doesn't really matter. The level cap is very low and gaining levels doesn't do much to help you (pretty much all of the best spells and abilities are available from first level). Levels don't confer a significant advantage, so experience isn't terribly valuable regardless of where it comes from.

[Consequences of Raedric's Hold]

You sure that Raedric isn't just crazy?... I mean, he tries to cure the land by building temple to Berath If that was all it would take to end the Legacy, then surely Legacy wouldn't be a thing everywhere in Dyrwood

 

Raedric is absolutely not crazy. He knows exactly what he is doing. He is a very, very bad man, and a very, very bad ruler. Here's a really easy way to tell the difference between a good ruler and a bad one: good rulers' lands are not on the verge of open revolt and kept in check only by mass indiscriminate public executions.

 

Raedric definitely deserves to die. That doesn't necessarily mean Kolsc deserves to rule, but at least he isn't a mass-murderer. It doesn't matter, though, because regardless of who you pick everyone dies. With that in mind, I would say that killing Raedric is extremely satisfying, especially after he brags about murdering his own wife in cold blood because she tried to keep him from murdering their child, all while he's in the process of squeezing the life out of his people.

 

Do it early on and you even get to do it again later!

[Thoughts from the End of the Game]

Uh, I'm not discussing the ending and I'm not asking for tips. I just said I cheated my way to the endpoint of the game and couldn't beat Thaos because the game freezes.

[BG1(Enhanced, BG2(Enhanced), or Pillars?]

Why choose? Pick both. If you don't have the money to afford both, then you probably should be saving your money for more important things.

 

If you're anything like me you'll play the first Baldur's Gate once just to say you did and then never again because it has not aged well, to say the least. The Enhanced Edition/BG1tutu (or whatever the mod's called) is a big improvement but there's still no reason to play it when you could just play the sequel. The people who are rhapsodizing about all the wilderness exploration in the first game are confusing me because that was boring and pointless and they removed it from the sequel for a reason. The first game was also more linear, not less. Despite being able to wander around through a bunch of mostly empty map squares, you can't go to Cloakwood until you've done Nashkel, you can't go to Baldur's Gate until the end of the game, etc.. The only things not available from the beginning of the game in BG2 are the Spellhold->Underdark->Suldenesselar questline. You can even do Watcher's Keep the second you leave Athkatla.

 

Pillars of Eternity actually reminds me a lot more of Icewind Dale 2; there's really good writing but the combat takes center stage, and your mileage may vary on that. Some people love it, some people hate it. It depends on whether you like the combat system. I love the Baldur's Gate games, I enjoyed Icewind Dale 2, I don't really like Pillars in its current state (patches and mods might change that). Plenty of other people here who are fans of the IE games love Pillars, so who knows if you will.

 

Baldur's Gate 2 is certainly the easiest of the choices you present--it's not hard for a clueless new player to just find Keldorn, slap the Holy Avenger on him, and nap through every fight in the game. It does use the opaque 2nd Edition AD&D rules, but the computer handles all of that for you, all you have to know is what spells are good and how to improve your numbers. Even if you do have trouble, it's been out forever; you'll be able to find walkthroughs and such on-line. Pillars doesn't have that yet.

[Thoughts from the End of the Game]

Alright, I didn't want to wait for them to patch the game so my Cipher worked again so I just cheated to the end of the game because I wanted to see where they were going with all this. For some reason (maybe god mode doesn't play well with heavily-scripted boss fights?) it keeps freezing during the Thaos fight, so whatever. There's things I want to talk about anyway.

 

So the world of Pillars of Eternity. Supposedly there was a civilization who became so great and wise that they decisively proved there's no such thing as god. I'm curious about that. How exactly do you prove, definitely, that there's no such thing as god? I want to know what the litmus test is for that. Did they put the universe in a big beaker and shoot a laser through it at a frequency that would highlight any gods hiding anywhere? Did they yell really loud and wait for someone to answer? Did they cast wish and ask if there's a god? I'm not saying they're wrong, just that it seems like a pretty ludicrous notion to disprove god through science!!, if you think about it. That isn't really how science works. By definition it's impossible to disprove the existence of something omnipotent and omniscient, and anything less than that isn't much of a god.

 

One of the central themes of the game appears to be futility. The worst atrocities in the story happened in the past (and you were partially responsible for a lot of them) and none of your actions during the course of the game (up to the fight against Thaos at least, which I can't complete, but I'm guessing there's a dialogue choice where you choose what to do with all those lost souls) amount to much. I mean, unless you count slaughtering about ten billion random bandits, thugs, spirits (LOTS of spirits), trolls, oozes, and whatever else made the mistake of crossing your path while surrounded by a red circle. No matter what you do, Defiance Bay burns. Even if Waidwen's Legacy ends, I don't think the Dyrwood is going to be recovering easily from all that's happened. In case all the dead babies everywhere didn't tip you off from the start, this isn't really a feel-good kind of experience, even the existentialist "yay I can finally die!" Planescape: Torment type. Thaos even mentions how the world is just a giant wheel, grinding spirits into dust; no beginning, no end, no purpose, just a long steady dissolution of purpose and existence.

 

I feel like after the ending credits, there'll be a wavy dissolve and you see Xan holding forth to the rest of your party from Baldur's Gate, saying, "... and that's my idea for a play. What do you all think?" and everyone yells at him to stop being so depressing while Imoen cries. Then it cuts to him slinking into the Obsidian offices, shaking his fist at <CHARNAME> and <HIS_HER> pals, and depositing a manuscript on that big table where they play D&D in their videos. Josh Sawyer finishes reading it, looks up wiping a tear from the corner of his eye, says, "It's beautiful. What do you call it?" and Xan says, "Pillars of Eternity." And then the musical sting from the end of Metal Gear Solid post-credits sequences plays.

 

Anyway, I've got a question for folks: Who was your favorite companion? Mine was Grieving Mother, no contest. After that is the hired adventurers, and then, I don't know. I didn't really like any of the others at all. They kept reminding me of other, better party members from other games without being anywhere near as compelling.

Full disclosure: I never found Hiravias or Pallegina, and I didn't complete anyone's companion quests or anything. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's not fair to judge them without seeing all their content, but I'm asking you who your favorite was and why.

[Engagement doesn't exactly work as advertised]

Engagement is definitely bugged. I've watched characters (both my own and enemies) eat Disengagement attacks from the guy that they are moving up to attack, before they become Engaged to anyone. I, uh, don't think that's how "Disengagement" is supposed to work.

[Reasons this game is un-finished]

 

If you have some things you wish improved or fixed then fine but its far from broken.

 

Fanboism among you guys is mind bogling. 

If there are things that can be fixed then they are broken. Otherwise why fix it if it ain't broken?

 

Sure let's pretend there are no bugs and all the people reporting bugs are just delusional and blind to the greatness PoE is. Whatever keeps your little fantasy land intact.

 

But in realityland Obsidian proved that the title Bugsidian is well earned and not the fault of publishers as they so eagerly stated in the past.

 

Anybody here ever play Vampire: the Masquerade: Bloodlines unpatched?

 

I know it was technically Troika, not Obsidian, but same difference.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure where all the hate for Obsidian is coming from. In my experience they're no better or worse than any other development studio when it comes to buggy releases. I'm pretty sure buggy games have more to do with the business of making games than it does with the designers' skill and craft (or lack thereof).

 

Pillars of Eternity, much like its fellow Kickstarter project Wasteland 2, does feel like playing a beta at release. I think it could be argued that's taking advantage of the demonstrably loyal fans who paid for the game before there was a game, but hey. It's not like they'll give the game a bad review because of some bugs, so you might as well use them to find said bugs. It's okay to take advantage of people who want you to take advantage of them.

[The Official Romance Thread]

Either way, there are far more important things than romances in video games, that the writers should put their effort to... take Mass Effect 3 for instance... completely nonsensical story that consists of nothing but plot holes, but hey, your Shepard can bang most of his crew, before (possibly) impregnating the whole damn galaxy in the end.

 

Are you saying that Mass Effect 3 was not the greatest story of our times?!?! Don't you remember how they cut half the party members from the second game so they could have a party of five losers no one liked + Garrus/Liara/Tali (which one you don't consider a loser depends on who you're romancing)??

 

That whole game felt like playing a disaster of game design. Like, I don't know, half the team walked out during development and the guy in charge went off his meds.

 

(FemShep is only Shep, by the by.)