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teknoman2
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Posts posted by teknoman2
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4 hours ago, majestic said:
what theory? that it took years of research before they proceeded with testing on humans? https://www.biospace.com/article/moderna-to-launch-clinical-trials-for-mrna-based-vaccine-for-hiv/
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I read an article today that Moderna is starting tests for an m-RNA vaccine for HIV. They have been working on it for years and testing it on animals and they start phase 1 of the tests on humans tomorrow. The first batch of volunteers are people who are completely healthy, they will have the vaccine and will be monitored for 10 months to measure the short term safety. If all goes well in phase 1, phase 2 of the testing will start after that with a broader range of test subjects to see the effects on people of various ages and health statuses. This test phase will last 12 months and then its phase 3 of testing that will involve people who already have HIV to see how well the vaccine works against the virus in a human body.
Years of R&D and animal testing followed by at least 3 years of human testing before the company takes it to the FDA for approval vs 10 months for the covid vaccine. Even if we assume that R&D took just a week and the rest was testing, at best we are now at phase 2 of the test period.
I got my jab fully aware that i'm a test subject for an experimental vaccine (i took part in phase 3 of the clinical trials for another study in 2011 because i had the illness the drug was meant to prevent... didn't help at all and i'm still sick hence the decision to vaccinate despite the risks) but what I can't stand is the fairy tale sold by the government and media that the vaccine is fully tested, safe, effective etc when we are barely halfway through the testing phase.
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6 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:
What group of scientists and doctors are speaking against vaccines?
Not all vaccines to be clear, just the covid vaccines. They are not straight up against vaccination but they say that these vaccines are not safe enough and there is a high chance they will end up causing more harm than covid itself down the line.
Here in Greece we have a former health minister who's been a doctor for 35 years and counting, the director of a major hospital, the dean of the second biggest medical university, several professors from various other universities including a Nobel price winner (this one is not a doctor but has been compiling global research data and statistics for WHO, there are several of his reports on the WHO site that contradict the media reports) and more than a few hospital doctors who were working on covid countermeasures research to come up with treatments for the patients. Most of them claim that every doctor who had a look at the vaccine's make up could spot the risks involved with their use but most choose to keep quiet because they could lose their research funding.
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we're all gonna die one day, may as well be from covid
jokes aside, the main problem with the whole situation is misinformation. there is no source that is trustworthy. the government engages in misinformation 24/7 and so do corporations (including of course the media) so are they telling the truth this time? how much of it is the truth if any? then you have groups like the anti-vaxxers who spread their kind of misinformation because they want to see the vaccines fail. then you have doctors and scientists who speak for and against the covid vaccines with one side presenting research data that show its safe and effective while the other presenting research data for the contrary and 99% of people don't know enough to make sense of any of it in order to make up their mind
so in the end people go with their gut feeling and, as my uncle said, "whoever is right, will come visit the grave of whoever is wrong". the only people who can make an informed decision are those who know how to make sense of the research data and their friends and relatives whom they advise on the matter.
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2 hours ago, BruceVC said:
But what is a fact about all vaccines is it is possible for any vaccine, not just Corona, to cause negative effects and even kill you. Its very rare ....very rare but its a risk
10 years ago the company I worked for did lots of consultancy in Africa and the ME. When you travel to countries like Nigeria it is mandatory at the airport to produce various vaccine certifications like Yellow Fever. Anyway my MD at the time was visiting Nigeria to see numerous customers and our Nigerian partner but he hadnt taken his Yellow Fever vaccine
Because he was at Lagos airport and on a business trip he was offered this vaccine as convenience, he did this and departed the airport. 2 hours after leaving the airport he started sweating and ended up in a coma and being airlifted back to SA. He spent over 3 months in hospital and had to teach himself to speak again and obviously never worked in corporate effectively again
He had a bad reaction to the Yellow Fever vaccine. It was very rare and no one I know, including me, ever had a bad reaction to this vaccine. So I do agree with you that it is possible a vaccine can have adverse and serious effects to you but its so rare and statistically an anomaly
And the benefits to all vaccines outweigh the negative and possible side effects
everything has a risk, even by getting off the bed in the morning you risk tripping and hitting your head. the thing with covid is how the whole thing was handled by governments and the media.
here's how it went here
we start with a terror campaign, we follow with a failing healthcare system that gets no help, we proceed with lockdowns and more "we're all gonna die", we use the fear as an excuse for authoritarian reforms, we drop a big chunk of the population in poverty by keeping their businesses closed for months until they file for bankruptcy, we implement stupid regulations and we impose ridiculous fines (like no more than 2 people in car even if they are the same family, meaning a mother of 2 can't have both her children in the car with her or she gets fined) with the excuse of stopping the spread we completely and shamelessly ignore the rules that we imposed on everyone else, we cross our arms and just wait for the vaccine, as soon as the vaccine is here we provide complete legal immunity to everyone involved in the vaccination process (from the producing company to the nurse who gives the shot including every member of the government), we give to the media for a pro vaccine campaign all the money we didn't give to the hospitals during the time when they needed them the most and because people (surprisingly) dont trust us after this "successful" handling of the situation, we proceed to use extortion to get them to vaccinate. meanwhile the constitution of the country has become a piece of toilet paper
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7 hours ago, rjshae said:
I think the medical community still needs to better clarify what is meant by "effectiveness". There's effectiveness against infection and effectiveness against hospitalization. The (Russian-supported) anti-vaxxers tend to focus on the former. But the latter is what keeps your ICU beds from running out and leaving unhospitalized people dying at home.
its not the medical community but the media and governments that are at fault here. most of what they spew about vaccines is positive misinformation like eradicating covid through vaccination and the immunity wall myth. covid and it's vaccines are like the flu and it's vaccines, no matter how many people get vaccinated the virus won't go away and the vaccines' effects don't provide lasting immunity. sooner or later we will be back at square 1 unless we get regular booster shots.
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1 hour ago, Elerond said:
This is not true. Covid vaccine have gone more comprehensive testing than most of the medication you have ever used, compared to flu vaccine for example testing and approval process was more comprehensive, demanded effectiveness was multiple times higher. Reason why covid vaccines need emergency approval is that new medication needs to be on market 5-10 years before it gets regular approval, because FDA, EMA etc. are quite paranoid about long term effects of medicines.
so, the same people who can't come up with a vaccine for other viruses that have been around for decades have researched a brand new virus, came up with a vaccine, tested it thoroughly and got enough data to get it approved in just 10 months? i'm not a medical researcher and i don't know how they do their job but it feels more like a feat of conjuration than a product of thorough scientific research. unless of course the virus was not new because, as we all know, it takes about 14 days from infection to full recovery in mild cases which means antibodies are formed a few days after the infection. however, according to virology textbooks, when a human gets infected with a virus his immune system has never met, it takes almost a month for antibodies to form and this is why new viruses always have a high mortality rate.
also, here's a source on the vaccine effectiveness. i guess the 1d6+3 joke i made about the duration of the vaccine's effects is not too far off.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta
the thing is that this batch of vaccines is simply buying time and they are not the salvation they were (and still are) advertised to be, if they were there would be no 3rd and maybe eventually 4th or 5th dose. as for the most common reason people get vaccinated here? they want to go to a soccer game and unvaccinated people are not allowed in the stadium. very few get the jab because they care about getting sick, they do it to avoid the restrictions... which is the worst reason possible as it undermines the medical value of vaccinations in general.
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today, a man who was perfectly healthy and had both jabs died of covid here.
CDC posted a report (and for some reason it was labeled fake news on twitter) that said that vaccinated people are at the same risk of getting infected and infecting others as unvaccinated. the same report was posted by the british version of CDC and many of the EU countries' similar agencies confirmed the results. so it is officially confirmed that the vaccines cannot and will not stop the spread of the virus and if the virus spreads, mutations will follow. at this rate we will have to get vaccinated every few months when a new mutation appears that is not affected by current vaccines... or we will just end up labeling covid19 as just another flu and forget about it
meanwhile the government here is not making vaccines straight up mandatory because they know there will be lawsuits to follow any case of serious side effects but they are coming up with increasingly inventive ways to push them on the unwilling or just skeptical parts of the population. stuff like you have to do 1 rapid test every week (payed in full by you) or both you and your employer will pay a fine.
oh and FDA as well as most similar agencies around the world gave the vaccine emergency use approval, which means the vaccines have not gone through the regular procedures that any medication needs to go through to be approved for public use. also, by watching the news timeline you can see that covid started spreading mid febuary 2020 and by november 20 the FDA had the first vaccine brought for approval, which it got on december 11. this is beyond record time to research an (allegedly) "new and unknown" virus, make a vaccine, test it effectively and get it approved for general use.
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what i do know for sure (as i've seen the interviews on tv) is that many very prominent doctors and medical researchers here in Greece are advocating against vaccination and are questioning the numbers presented by many governments when it comes to the number of dead and infected as they don't match with both the local and international research data. The first thing they say about the vaccines is that as more people get vaccinated and more data flows in, the lower the efficacy gets. Pfizer says their vaccine has a 96% efficacy but current data on vaccinated people shows that 46% of those vaccinated with both doses can still get sick enough to need hospitalization. Also, recent autopsy reports show that many covid victims didn't die of covid itself but from other infections that they contracted in the hospitals while their body was weakened.
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i was listening to the news on the radio while at work when they reported that so i have no online link about it. it could have been an exaggerated rumor (the media's favorite kind of news) but i didn't really look into it
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i heard there was an official announcement from the Israeli government that they will stop administering the 3rd dose of the pfizer vaccine because so far it causes very serious side effects with a 3% mortality rate
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one last day at work and then its vacation time... if only i could afford to make it permanent
2 days ago we had a big forest fire near where i live. not close enough for the house to be at risk but close enough for the wind to carry the smoke and ash here and raise the already high temperature of 40C to 44C (104F and 111F). meanwhile using the AC was bringing the smoke in the house making it hard to breathe. they managed to halt the fire's advance by morning but everything still smells of smoke and ash.
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meanwhile the virus is back with a vengeance in Wuhan despite the population there being almost fully vaccinated
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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:
You make some valid points about the reason for this global general vaccine hesitancy in many countries. I wish it wasnt the case but yes many citizens simply distrust their current and previous governments so you probably 100 % correct that end of the day this is more about bad leadership and the message from that bad leadership than the actual truth or science about the message
But you know how I look at it? Because SA has plenty of examples of corruption and mistakes from our new Democratically elected government after Apartheid ended in 1994....but also we have had real successes which is why I still live in SA and have never immigrated. The good outweighs the bad...always try to see life like that because its true
So if you think about vaccines and why they make sense, its not actually our governments telling us " take vaccines " .....its the scientific facts that we know as a civilisation that over the last 1000 years has been used successfully. And the idea of vaccines to treat and defeat numerous diseases has been been proven and its historically irrefutable
So we need to not think of this as what our governments are telling us....no. They just repeating a message that is globally known and has real evidence of ending pandemics
I hope this makes sense ?
antivaxers aside, most people who are not getting the jab are simply skeptical about its effectiveness and safety and the fact that there is not enough data about them. if you look for the measles vaccine on google you can get a list of facts. when it was made, by who, its composition, how it works, when it was tested, where, for how long, on how many people and so on. all these information are simply absent when it comes to these covid vaccines. my grandma has some allergies and asked her doctor about it and the doctor said "we have not been informed about anything when it comes to the vaccine's composition, so i can't tell you for sure if its safe". so she can't get it even if she wanted to because there is no way to know if its safe for her.
getting vaccinated on blind faith or by being forced is not a good approach to convincing the population.
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5 minutes ago, rjshae said:
The precedent here is that the pandemic was declared a national emergency by Trump. That allows measures to be taken that would normally be unacceptable. What's unclear to me is when does the emergency end?
nothing is more permanent than the temporary - ancient greek proverb
Coronavirus 666: The Number of the Delta Variant (but in an entirely scientific context)
in Way Off-Topic
Posted
It seems everyone here is a researcher in the medical field and not someone who just read/heard something and relays the news, choosing what and who they believe. Bureaucracy aside, what i know about medical research is that its a VERY complicated minefield where any mistakes can cause serious setbacks.
As for the earthquake analogy its still bad. There are set procedures for both people and state services (police, firefighters etc) on how to operate in case of an earthquake, i live in a quake rich country and i've experienced it all first hand, they don't come up with them on the fly. A closer example would be how the Russian firefighting plane Beriev that was sent for evaluation by Greece was given emergency authorization by both governments to be operated by its Russian crew in active duty against the huge fires we have here. Still, the difference remains that this plane was not built from scratch in record time just for these fires.
On a more positive note, in France they found that properly trained dogs can sniff out covid in patients with higher accuracy than even PCR tests, which makes them ideal for finding people who are infected and who are not able to get through the invasive tests, like elderly with Alzheimer's, people with mental disabilities, small children etc. or even people who show no symptoms and would not have tested for it at all.