[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

It is almost a pity that PoE got released as now we won't be able to enjoy your contributions to the game and it's forum anymore. I will be looking forward to see more from you on the torment forums.

Torment will be interesting as it will be mostly a narrative focused game. They just hired a Codexian Adventure game developer as a contract writer, so hopefully there's puzzle gameplay in there too.

 

I'll probably focus mostly on polish, UI, performance and maybe with the encounter design.

 

Adam Heine is the Lead Designer and he seems pretty cool. He talked recently on the Codex about using some UI features similar to the Banner Saga, which I like because the Banner Saga has good tactical combat and has a good UI.

[just a comment on the rpg codex review.]

I am a member of the codex and I like Real-time with pause, action combat AND turn-based.

 

If you can do good combat of any type - that's cool with me

 

[and no, Pillars of Eternity is not good real-time with pause]

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

I'll be doing testing for Torment in a similar manner I think. Will probably see some of you around for that.

 

Remember when people just had fun playing games?

What if you're not having fun and are trying to figure out why?

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

So guys... Before the game was released there were alot of **** talking. The general consensus were however, that the common goal was to improve the game. It's sad to see now, that the discussion is reduced to this. Any worthwhile constructive argument about the future of PoE is quickly shot down.  

And it's sad to read Sensukis posts on the codex aswell. To watch him starting this thread, only to coward out, when Matt is confronting him. Then to go post a link on the codex about this thread, only to promote his wish to belong to their group of self important wankers and ridicule the how the peasents here doesn't agree with them. 

I actually believed he wanted to work for the betterment of PoE, but he showed his true colors now. 

So sad.

Excuse me, but I am right here thankyou very much. I replied to Matt's post and I've replied to several others. Matt is a friend of mine so naturally I'm not going to kick up a stink over him disagreeing with me on a forum .

 

This forum and many of the other forums on the game move at an incredibly fast pace and it's impossible to keep up with all of them. I mostly stick to the Codex Pillars of Eternity stuff now because I like reading the Codex.

 

I posted the Codex review here because no one else had yet. I have also posted other Codex content here before such as the Shadowrun Hong Kong stuff / Codex Top RPGs in GD and various other things. If the Vault Dwelller and Grunker review was posted first I would have posted that instead (which likely is going to be a positive review). I also informed others of that review upcoming.

 

Other than post about my disappointment with the game (usually when asked directly), yes I have stopped contributing and producing video content because ... I don't like the game and I believe that I can do nothing further to make the game enjoyable for me to play. My issues with the game are at the design level, not the implementation level. They cannot be fixed. There is a group of people that enjoy the game - largely the game's 'target audience' - badgame and Something Awful.

 

You don't see me going on a rampage about it. I post on the Codex, which I consider my home forum and I have posted a few times on reddit, here and Something Awful, almost always when someone asks me a question or to respond to a personal query.

 

You may be disappointed that I have stopped contributing but I was bitterly disappointed with the game after the amount of money and effort I spent on it only to not really enjoy playing it, not even enough to want to finish it. The best thing for me to do is just simply stay the hell away.

 

And just because I posted a meme about "just wanting to read the comments", does that make me a troll? The review post has generated nearly 30 pages of discussion and debate. Discussion and debate in my opinion is healthy. Do you see me rebutting every person who disagrees with me or the review? No. Only specific posts, like the guy who said BG1 is a terrible game.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

Evidently.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

Where did I say that problems are not as big of a deal as he makes them out to be? and which ones?

 

I can tell you, I am more disappointed with this game than the reviewer Darth Roxor is simply by matter of return on investment.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

Baldurs Gate 1 is an epic disaster of a game

No it's not. I dislike Pillars of Eternity but I wouldn't call it an epic disaster of a game. But I'm not surprised that you think that BG1 is because you love the Engagement system

 

The problems start with the wretched character creation system.  You roll random dice over and over and over to get the best start.  This is pathetic game design - and it is absolutely crucial for your game.

There are quite a few people that enjoy rolling for stats. The design for the game was to emulate AD&D 2E. In AD&D 2E you rolled for stats. Goal succeeded.

 

The class system is byzantine and cumbersome, with all sort of hidden rules about which class can do what.  There are linked sets of important abilities, called feats, with virtually no information on what they do.

Is it? Would you say that the Gold Box games have a byzantine and cumbersome class system? Because the class system was AD&D 2E. There were a fair few things missing though which the IWDs and BG2 fixed. The rules were not hidden if you knew AD&D 2E. Once again, your problem appears to be with the AD&D 2E ruleset itself.

 

There are traps in character design all over the place - you can gimp yourself with the wrong choices.

Yes you can. However, not everyone cares about this. Josh Sawyer might be on a holy crusade to try and remove trap choices as options in games but not everyone cares to. The only trap choices to be made are in attribute selection, really.

 

Once the game starts, you're put into a hideous tutorial area where you do stupid things like fighting illusionary warriors in a basement and doing fetch quests like a golden retriever.  Your first companion has the most annoying voice that I've ever had the displeasure to hear.

The tutorial is optional, and you don't have to speak to the Green Tutorial Monks either. I never do. When I play Candlekeep I kill Shank and Carbos, return Phyldia's book. Loot the second floor of the Inn. Get the potion for Nessie the Cow. Fight Jondalar and Erik. Kill the Rats for Reevor. Return Tethtoril's scroll. Fetch Hull's Long Sword and buy Fuller his bolts.

 

All of that makes sense to me, you seem like some sort of Candlekeep Errand Boy/Girl before you leave.

 

You start out weak as a kitten, able to be taken out by house pets.

Really? The first area includes bears, and you can kill them straight off the bat. You likely can't beat a Bear in Pillars of Eternity with two level one characters with starting gear only.

 

If you choose a spell caster you can do one or two things before you need to take a nap. You'll be taking lots of naps.

Yes, until you find the Ring of Wizardry (or Ring of Holiness) And no, you do not have to take lots of naps. Who says you have to rest when you run out of spells? I never do. Is this what makes people rest spam? I use my spells wisely and the rest of the time I attack with weapons. Up in ya grill with my 19 Thaco Quarterstaff attacks or in the back with a Sling. Sling Wizard isn't terrible, either.

 

You can be in the middle of an epic fight and then just plop down for eight hours without consequence - or spend a couple of game days riding back to an inn, knock back a couple of pints, and then jump back like nothing happened.

Umm, you can do this in Pillars of Eternity? You're not even interrupted if you rest 20 feet away from some Ogres as long as you're not in the combat state.

 

You'll spend half your time playing inventory tetris.  You'll spend the other half of your time searching for a point - why would I care about some stupid iron shortage?

No you won't. Don't pick up every crappy item. Pick up the good stuff. Searching for what point? and yeah maybe you don't care about an Iron Shortage, but don't you want to find out why someone has put a bounty on your head? I had more personal motivation in Baldur's Gate 1 and more sense of adventure than I did in Pillars of Eternity.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

I know that BG1 is not an Obsidian game, this is not the point here. If even BG1 is mediocre then how many crpgs are worth playing?

I think he meant it's a mediocre Infinity Engine game when compared to Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape Torment.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

So BG1 is a blatantly mediocre game and Dungeon Siege 3 was better. Given the author's tastes in video games I'm glad he didn't like PoE.

BG1 is not an Obsidian game. It was made by BioWare. I'm positive that the reviewer likes BG1 more than DS3.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

Seriously, I think you need to reread what I'm talking about here.

Dude I've read every post he's made about the game on the codex. You are misinterpreting him . He knows that they were deliberately trying to copy D&D.

 

Roxor says the writing ranges from average at best to abysmal at worst. I disagree, and you defend him but then all you can talk about is the fact that you don't like or care about the plot. You say that SRR has better plot while Obsidian "can write nicer sentences." In other words, the writing in PoE is better and you're continuing to use the fact that PoE's plot didn't draw you in to deflect.

I repeatedly stated that he was comparing it against Obsidian's other games. You asked me to make a comparison against another Kickstarter which I did and I stated why I thought the plot in SRR was better than the Pillars of Eternity plot. Obsidian's writers might have a larger vocabulary and more flowery ways of saying things but that doesn't really mean much when the actual content has issues.

 

In my post earlier I linked you to a thread where the Codex discusses the issues with the writing in Pillars of Eternity at extreme length. It's a really good thread and I enjoyed reading it. Every issue I have mentioned is in there, mentioned by others.

 

Here is the thread again: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-writing-in-this-game-is-average.98103/

 

Most Obsidian games aren't my cup of tea either, PoE is their first game made in a style and genre that I can enjoy. I've played most of their games, but there's not one before PoE that I could actually enjoy enough to finish. That's partially due to my tastes in games (which I think are similar to yours), I don't play first person RPGs and over-the-shoulder stuff is nearly as annoying to me. That being said, I think most who are being honest can look back on Obsidian's rather small catalog and agree that PoE is not the worst among them. Again, it is a matter of opinion, but there's no doubt in my mind that Roxor didn't give PoE a chance, and it's plain to see that it's a list of flaws more than an objective review, and that's not because the game only has flaws. PoE has both strengths and weaknesses and a worthwhile review will reflect that more clearly.

Personally I think that it's a very polished game but content wise I think it's a big disappointment. The biggest achievement in the game is the environment art. Everything else they've done somewhere better before. For some people, polish is more important but I don't think that Pillars of Eternity will rank that great on the Codex Top RPG list this year. It will be interesting to see how it does against D:OS, SRD and Wasteland 2 though.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

Really? Are you talking about KOTOR2 with the fan-made mods that restore the missing content or the final release version? Because without fan-made content, that game was an unfinished mess and the mechanics were intrinsically an order of magnitude less complex than PoE. Even with the mods, I don't think it is better, but in the original condition I don't see much of a basis for debate.

 

If I had to rank Obsidian's full games, PoE would be at the top. Mask of the Betrayer is arguably better, but that's an expansion and thus of much smaller scope.

It was unfinished yep, and yes the mechanics were less complex. Complex =/= good and despite the combat being super easy I was not bothered by it. In Pillars of Eternity it's just a boring repetitive slog. I prefer the KotOR2 characters, story and Chris Avellone's writing in general I think.

 

I also finished the game multiple times. So there's that.

 

MotB probably is better, but it uses the NWN2 engine and that game has terrible performance. I can't play games that have terrible performance.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

No. What are you even talking about. You don't know where I got the idea from, I was directly quoting his review. He says, and I quote (again): "The game abandons established settings and rulesets in favour of ones developed at home by Obsidian, whose one big purpose was to differentiate it from Dungeons and Dragons." He then goes on to make snarky, sarcastic comments about how everything is "not-D&D" such as the amaua which are "not-orcs," the orlans which are "not-halflings," etc. In other words, he falsely presupposes that the point was to differentiate from D&D, and then criticizes the game for not doing so. So, I don't know what you're on about, but it's not my first paragraph that's been invalidated here.

You said this in your first paragraph of your last post

 

This is where he declares that the one main goal of the setting (and ruleset) is to be as different as possible from D&D.

Your key mistake here is that you think the reviewer thinks that what Obsidian created is 'to be as different as possible from D&D' when he is actually saying it's trying to be 'not-D&D', which is basically D&D stuff with slight variations. He criticizes them for being unoriginal/boring. Part of Obsidian's goal was to make the game feel a bit like Forgotten Realms / D&D and this is what they did to an extent, but the reviewer wanted them to take more risks, to be a bit more inventive.

 

The exact opposite of what you said.

 

So, which games that I mentioned have better writing than PoE? D;OS, Wasteland 2, SRR? Do you think that the writing in BG1 and BG2 is better than the writing in PoE? We'll leave the story and plot aside, because the comment was about the quality of the writing. I think that the writing ranges from as good as to better than all of the games I listed, but you're free to disagree of course.

The reviewer compares the writing against Obsidian's other games and not the other Kickstarters, but I'll humor you. There are many aspects of writing and I think Obsidian's writing is nicely written but in Pillars of Eternity specifically the plot is weak, has structural and pacing issues as well as issues with establishing player motivation, and then goes full retard in the last part of the game (which he mentions, where they throw everything including the kitchen sink at you in the last bit of the game). Nothing in the game me even remotely care about the Dyrwood or the antagonist to the point where I stopped playing the game because I simply did not care to pursue the story any further after the Act 2 finale.

 

I have completed Shadowrun Returns (and none of the other KS games) and while Obsidian can write nicer sentences, I thought Shadowrun Returns had a better plot - started out investigating a murder and then evolved into a save the world story, simple, perhaps a bit cliche, but it worked without issue. Obsidian reached for the sky and fell short with theirs. There were several things I didn't like in SRR such as the murderer showing up at the crime scene (derp) and I didn't even like the second part of the story but there was nothing wrong with the plot and I liked the characters, particularly Coyote. Apparently Dragonfall is way, way better. I recently bought that but I've only played the first 10 minutes.

 

I'll take a simpler plot/story that succeeds than one that is underdeveloped/a mess. IMO the most interesting story tidbit was the Hollowborn stuff, I would have rathered if the game was just about that.

 

Also, you can say that you were determined to enjoy the game, and Roxor can say the same, but both of you hated aspects of it before it was even released.

So did many others, I'm sure. It's not difficult to separate combat from story either. Combat in The Witcher 2 sucks, but the story is quite good and I've enjoyed replaying that a few times and the Rise of the Sword mod makes the combat less insufferable.

 

That was my scathing summation, a nod to his if you will. Obviously enjoying action games doesn't preclude you from enjoying story-driven RPGs, but he made the initial comparison between the two and my response was meant as a half-joke. Anyway, I just don't think that the review offered anything worthwhile. Furthermore, I think it's ridiculous to call it the worst Obsidian game to date, do you disagree? Do think that Roxor really believes that this is the worst game Obsidian ever made? Do you believe that it's their worst game?

I've only completed one Obsidian game - Knights of the Old Republic 2. I played Neverwinter Nights 2 but never finished it (and likely never will). I refuse to play Alpha Protocol, South Park and Fallout New Vegas because AP is a console shooter, I don't care about South Park and I don't like any Bethesda games (including Morrowind) and I only mildly enjoyed the first Dungeon Siege but do not care to play the second or third. None of those games cater to my gameplay preferences.

 

Out of the games I have played (Kotor 2), NWN2 and Pillars of Eternity I'd say it's worse than KotOR2, but maybe better than NWN2 at least in some ways, but worse in others.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

You don't have to read far to understand how this review is going to go: "The game abandons established settings and rulesets in favour of ones developed at home by Obsidian, whose one big purpose was to differentiate it from Dungeons and Dragons."

I'm sorry but I have absolutely no idea how you got this from the review because it doesn't say anything of the sort. He used the word not-D&D. You've heard of "I can't believe it's not butter" right ?

 

That pretty much invalidates everything in your first paragraph.

 

He goes on to say that the writing is "at best average and at worst abysmal." I mean, it's so clear with every passing paragraph of this review that he's determined to hate this game.

I doubt it, because I was determined to enjoy the game, and I came roughly to the same conclusions. I had the same opinion as Darth Roxor did that even if the combat wasn't very good that at least the writing/story would be good, because it's Obsidian right? This is their forte. It turned out to be exactly as he said - average at best. I wouldn't go as far to say abysmal at worst but there are areas where it clearly struggles.

 

The plot and player motivation is a mess and the game clearly suffers from trying to cover too much ground while not really doing any of it's themes justice at all.

 

This thread basically covers everything and includes several posts from the author: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-writing-in-this-game-is-average.98103/

 

Then there are lines such as these in the summation which reveal that you're not really reading much of a review at all: "This is literally the worst Obsidian game I’ve played to date. That’s right, I even had more fun with Dungeon Siege 3." Well, by all means, refrain from reviewing story-driven RPGs in the future then, because your preference is clearly action games.

I'm not sure how you got "clear preference for action games" from this. I think it's pretty clear that the game burnt the reviewer. He was expecting an Infinity Engine successor that at least had a decent Obsidian story. What he got was a game that he didn't find fun to play and didn't have a good story. Whereas Dungeon Siege 3 probably at least met or surpassed his expectations.

[Can you buy collector's physical stuff nowadays?]

I'll be selling mine as soon as I get the DRM-free disc, everything still sealed

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

If I were the editor at RPG Codex and you write a review so unbalanced that it sounds like a hatchet job...you will never write another review for my publication again.

Perhaps if you pay Darth Roxor some money he might change his review to a positive one like what happens in professional games journalism 

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

well, no.

I was actually referring to people that commented specifically on the article on the website.

 

I stated "most commented article on codex ever" (in as many hours) and Shevek responded with how many of those people read the article.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

The mega-dungeon is disappointing and I'm surprised at the level of effort put in by Obsidian. Some of the levels are so small it's basically a corridor to the next level with maybe a room off to the side.

Like with everything in the KS, they were most concerned with delivering the promised features e.g. "15 levels" than anything else. Other developers cut features to much jeering from their respective communities.

 

The result is butter scraped over too much bread.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

Everyone except you and Irenaeus probably.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

I dunno, this one has the most comments of any Codex review ever

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

VD has shredded games in the past, both before starting AOD and during. I don't really see how you can be 'predicting' how other people are going to review the games - but I guess it's a very thinly disguised way of saying "hey if you read those positive reviews keep in mind one guy's a shill and another guy well at least he realises how some of the game sucks."

I know, I've read his reviews. I personally think he's gotten a little bit softer. His WL2 review was very forgiving (still a fairly good review though).

 

I still think it will be a good review even if I know I'm going to disagree with a lot of the things they say, I'm more interested in seeing what Grunker and VD agree on. VD is basically the opposite of me when it comes to the Infinity Engine games.

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

Vault Dweller and Grunker's review will be more positive. Vault Dweller hates Baldur's Gate and RTwP combat and his main priorities are C&C and reactivity, so as far as he's concerned pretty much anything is better than the BG games. He's also a developer so he's kinda bound by 'professional courtesy' as well. Grunker is a BG2 guy and I think he enjoyed the game but he thought that encounter design and itemization were absolutely terrible among other things. 

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

Sorry, Sensuki... I've gotta disagree with you 100% here. This review is the Codex at its worst. And I say that not in a "the Codex is terrible" sense, but in a "this is the kind of thing that gives the Codex a bad name" sense.

 

I agree with most of the points/conlusions that Darth Roxor makes, but as I said in the OP I agree with them for sometimes completely different reasons. He does get some mechanical details wrong and I disagree with many of the things he says, but he winds up largely at the same conclusion as I do.

 

It's definitely not a troll review. The tone of the review is colorfully antagonistic, but I don't have a problem with that, and all of his reviews are like that although not all of them are negative.

 

No wonder you liked this review, Sensuki *stomp*

 

[RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp]

RPGCodex just released their first review (there will be another one)

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9867

This is my favourite review so far. I agree with most, if not all points/conclusions although often for (sometimes very) different reasons than the reviewer stated.
 

When Obsidian Entertainment started their Kickstarter campaign for Pillars of Eternity in 2012 (under a working title of Project Eternity), many saw it as the second coming of Christ for cRPGs. There it was: the veteran developers from everyone’s beloved Black Isle Studios, reinforced by Tim Cain himself, wanted to bring us a modern successor to the Infinity Engine games. In their pitch, Obsidian described Eternity as something that would marry the combat of Icewind Dale, the narrative of Planescape: Torment and the exploration of Baldur’s Gate. Considering that a few years earlier Obsidian had given us the two Neverwinter Nights 2 expansions, Mask of the Betrayer and Storm of Zehir, that also fit parts of the above bill, it looked like there was no other choice but to get hyped.

However, as some of my esteemed readers may know, I was sceptical of Eternity throughout its development. While my initial reaction to the Kickstarter was as euphoric as everyone else’s, the upcoming stream of updates explaining the game’s design philosophy convinced me that there was trouble afoot. Their content seemed to go directly against ideas that I simply found entertaining, both in regards to video games at large, and to cRPGs themselves. Not to mention the aspects at the core of what made the IE games fun. Nevertheless, I was certain that even if mechanically the game didn’t turn out well, it would still provide me with Obsidian’s trademark writing, quest design and reactivity.

But promises, hype machines and development processes are one thing, while the end results are another, which is why I shall not bother to delve into the former, and will just focus on the latter. I will attempt to judge Pillars of Eternity in regards to: the Infinity Engine games’ legacy, Obsidian’s earlier work in this field (mostly the NWN2 expansions), the developers’ experience in general and, finally, its value as a distinct game and new entry into the cRPG catalogue.

In the end, Pillars of Eternity’s (henceforth referred to as PoE) Kickstarter campaign gathered a total of over four million dollars. Let us see if this pile o’ cash was put to good use.......

Read the rest here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9867

 

 

There will also be another review later on by Grunker and Vault Dweller.

[WTF is wrong with Obsidian?]

I would have dropped the infinite inventory too, but they were absolutely never going to do that unfortunately.

 

When would you reset the vendor gold? All the vendor gold limit does is force you to go to a different store, it doesn't really add anything to the gameplay.

[WTF is wrong with Obsidian?]

I'd like to see you come up with a solution that doesn't suck.

 

The gold limit was there for some other reason/to fit some other mechanic which they removed from the game during production or the alpha or something so all it was doing was making you walk outside and back in again to sell gear.

 

Even if the gold limit prevented you from selling stuff to the same vendor, how exactly is it fun gameplay to have to walk around the world map to different vendors selling your gear?

 

I also did not get vendor gold removed. I posted about it being crap, sure, but someone else posted it somewhere (Something Awful?) and Josh Sawyer replied with that it was supposed to be removed anyway because they changed the system, it just hadn't been removed yet.

 

In the IE games, certain vendors wouldn't buy certain things, but there was no gold limit. They could have done something like that I guess, although PE doesn't have that many shops in areas (usually less than one) so it would just mean extra traveling.

 

As far as "QQ I'm triggered by Sensuki, he made the game worse" goes, most of the stuff that I got changed was quite minor (mostly minor UI stuff). Any major changes had absolutely nothing to do with me other than probably fanning the flames of discussion.