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Merin
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Posts posted by Merin
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You really like defending BSN, heh.
And you really like snide comments.
What I don't like are disengenuous arguments using faulty logic and a lack of facts. And I don't like straight up poisoning the well.
Whether someone posts on the BSN forum doesn't invalidate any point they make.
All the BSN bashing is a distraction and an attempt to be dismissive of anyone who does want romance in the game. There's a handful of bullies on this thread who seek to brow-beat and belittle anyone they disagree with into silence so they can get their way.
It isn't going to work. Ignore is a wonderful tool.
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Question: why is it that people demand more maturity out of the plotlines (romantic or otherwise) for Project Eternity and in the same breath attack Bioware and its community?
Bioware's community is frightening and immature. Have you seen BSN in the last few years?
Still there. Depends on what threads you read, whom you've friended, and what sub-forums you regularly visit.
People constantly attacking BSN here remind me of all the small town people I grew up with and their reactions when my family moved to Chicago. "What, do you want to get shot?" Because, as we all know, the millions of people who live in Chicago all get shot... that's truly a defining feature of Chicago.
Romance discussions are a small subset of BSN. People acting in the "gimme what I want OR ELSE" fashion are an even smaller part of that discussion.
Damning thousands for the activity of a dozen seems pretty, I don't know what term I should use... uhm, opportunisitc?
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Oh, I never added how excited I am that Edair looks nothing like, say, Hawke. With cartoony armor and anime weapons. Praise the gods of Eternity for that!
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David Gaider is an excellent crpg writer. He is a mediocre prose novelist.
Drew Karpyshn is a mediocre crpg writer. He writes trashy novels.
Chris Avellone is a "legendary" crpg writer. He is a talented cartoonist. Will that translate well to prose?
I'm hopeful.
I'm familiar with some/most of the novels by David Gaider and Drew Karpyshyn and for the most part I've been pretty happy with both which is quite the thing for me to say because I am incapable of finishing a novel unless it captivates and I tend to be quite insanely picky. Although Drew REALLY screwed the pooch with the Revan novel....he should have retired from gaming before writing that novel instead of after. It would have saved his reputation. Still it's a matter of taste I suppose.
As for the novel at hand here I have no doubt it'll be amazing and I am very glad to see that it is happening....also can't wait to read it....
Yeah, I unabashedly enjoyed all David Gaider's novels and all the Mass Effect novels from Drew Karpyshyn. I'm thrilled and cannot wait to see what Chris Avellone writes.
Hating is so easy, and bashing stuff is so insipid.
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I think the thing is that folks should simply respect that every stretch won't necessarily have something that appeals to you directly, but each stretch does add to the game in one way or another and that those things added together may create something greater than the sum of its parts. ...And, if you want something different, advocate for it. The way I look at it is that I'll pester for what I want, but I'll let the matter drop once the design team makes a steadfast and considered decision.
Yes. Liking this wasn't enough... it deserved to be quoted.
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I think Mary Sue is being really poorly misunderstood.
Mary (or her twin Gary) Sue was originally just an author avatar, and a "perfect being" avatar at that.
Now - well, again, this explains best how the term is now thrown around so often that it is meaningless.
Chosen One != Mary Sue
Kinda impossible with a role-playing game where you create your own character. I mean, you can be making a "player avatar" to represent YOU being in the world... but the character you make doesn't have to be a chosen one, and game rules usually prevent you from making a "perfect being" character so...
... you know, I already realize I'm going to lose this one. NM.
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Great update. I'm excited about the novella!
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Some people need to reacquaint themselves with what "chosen one" means in literature -
Even uses a quote from my favorite author:
"It's one thing to think that you're the center of the universe — it's another thing entirely to have this confirmed by an ancient prophecy." - Douglas Adams
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I always find it more compelling when it's a character who builds themselves up and finds the courage and strength of will to succeed.
"Destined" characters are, in retrospect, boring. By definition, they WILL succeed. It is "destiny."
I'd rather my character rises above his station, proves his worth by effort not by birthright or bloodline or prophecy.
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It's game development. There is no way for Obsidian to be 100% sure how much it will cost in the end. Not to mention the costs just to fill all the kicksratrt pledge extra like collector editions, paries, and other goodies. The way they desrcibe this game no way does it cost a mere 1.1 mil to make over the course of 2 years.
Let's say 25 people are working on it and they have a low end average salary of 25k that is 1.25mil for 2 years in basic staff salaries. Does not compute.
Because they also work on other projects, and each person isn't working for the full 2 years on that development cycle, and other things I'm sure I can't even imagine.
It's not that simple an equation.
And I did say "barring unforseen circumstances." Things happen. Good business plans try to accommodate for the unknown.
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Well, I would agree with you that it's becoming somewhat redicolous. Some people want to turn the game into a romance simulator.
This really sounds like a straw man to me. Who's asking for the game to be a "romance simulator" - as in, find a quote of someone saying that.
Wanting romance in the game isn't asking for it to be a romance simulator.
Get some quotes... who's asking for romance simulator? How many people? What percentage?
Wanting romance in the game != wanting the game to be a romance simulator.
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I want there ranges of choices to make. "Good and evil" is just one, very limited, range. So I said "Yes" but I mean I want more choices and range.
I don't care if there's a morality meter or not. I don't love them, I don't hate them. So I'm indifferent, and chose I don't care.
I am agnostic on stats and such being affected by such choices / meters as well. It doesn't bother me if it's there, it doesn't bother me if it isn't. So, again, I chose I don't care.
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I think you maybe missed my point.
Nope - I said if a Kickstarter project's funding goals is met, it's a success. You listed someone who didn't ask for their full goal, exceeded what they thought they needed, and still failed to have what they ended up really needing, as some kind of counter-example. Your counter-example was someone who 1 - asked for less, as I stated, and 2 - misjudged what they needed.
I got your point - and I countered your point by saying that Obsidian DID ask for full funding and should know what they need, if anyone CAN, barring unforeseen circumstances.
Again, got the point - and you're point (not all Kickstarters ask for full funding, and sometimes even going over isn't enough) is irrelevant. Obsidian asked for what they needed. So did Double Fine, DoubleBear, inXile, Harebrained Schemes...
Other people don't. Some campaigns already have a product and just look to raise money for marketing, advertising.
A few try to use Kickstarter as a scam.
These are all irrelevant to Obsidian's campaign.
We might be buying Obsidian house, but we might alternatively be giving them a deposit to secure a mortgage. We don't know, because they haven't told us.
And this is where you are just flat wrong - like those other game companies I listed, they explicitly state that they are asking for the amount they need to do their game from scratch -
If you need more evidence, their stretch goals are ADDING CONTENT... they aren't saying stuff like "well, we asked for a million, but really need twelve, and each later tier of the stretch goals is that much less we have to raise elsewhere.
They don't have an elsewhere -
You're examples are of other projects, projects where they state they didn't ask for the full amount.
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no love for RTDM (read the damn manual), huh?
If games even included manuals worth reading anymore...
I still think an optional, separate item on the start menu tutorial is good even with having read the manual... it's a sandbox to get used to controls, hot keys, etc, before diving in... and letting you focus on gameplay and story, not controls and game mechanics.
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It is kind of funny to read all of the posts on how being the "Chosen One" or a character that has a special heritage/lineage is boring and overdone. In other threads you can read about how many people consider The Baldur's Gate Series (special heritage) and Planescape:Torment (chosen one) to be the best RPGs ever made. ^^
Hi, I'm Merin. I don't know if you saw my post in the "how old are you" thread, but my ten (twelve) favorite cRPGs didn't include PS:T or Baldur's Gate. Those are both games I never finished. Or the game hooks thread, where I list Icewind Dale, the Fallouts and Arcanum.
One that someone else here did mention that I loved - the Bard's Tale remake. Not so much for mediocre gameplay, but because the whole game was a big satire on "the Chosen One" trope.
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The BSN is probably one of the most disgustingly pathetic places on the internet, .
Come now thats a bit dramatic and exaggerated? BSN also has thousands of people who don't talk about Romance\Sex and contribute constructively towards threads
It's a common slur. I won't hide that I've been a member of the BSN for years (since DA:O more or less forced you to join) but I will point out that the people I've friended over there and the conversations and threads I pay attention to almost never have anything to do with romance.
There's quite the Project Eternity support over there, and some not-so-gentle rubbing-in-the-face of Eternity's success so far to BioWare.
Mock the people who say BioWare can do no wrong ever all you want - apologists fo that extreme devotion can do with a little ribbing.
I know I'm biting back snide comments at all the Planescape: Torment worship, too.
But the BSN is dramatic and exaggerated. The only they're contributing towards over there is decline.
Here are some very active threads over there as well, to counter someone else's cherry picking -
Top 5 things you would like to see in DA3 Inquisition ? (yes, there are people clamoring for romance stuff in here - and many more who's lists don't mention it)
Remove conversation icons (strong dislike of paraphrasing is a common complaint amongst many members)
Dragon Age III Multiplayer (disdain for inclusion of multi-player is a common complaint amongst many members)
Alternative to the Day One DLC Model (BioWare forum goers dislike Day One DLC as much as anyone)
What class of character do you plan to play in DA3? (just a discussion on which classes people expect to play in DA3)
What could Loghain's role be in Dragon Age 3? (controversial thread as Loghain has many "haters" - though, personally, I love to hate him so...)
Put more effort in the ending(s), please (there's no shortage of disappointed (or worse) fans to DA2 and ME3 on BSN)
Dynamic Quests (Example- The DAO Quest "Captured!") (this thread is about asking for more quests like the mentioned one, which was GREAT)
There. And instead of going three pages deep, those are all page one DA3 conversations.
You could also jump over to BioWare General, where it's Off Topic board, alone, has more threads and posts than all of Obsidian's forums combined. And, you know, good luck finding threads about romance in games in Off Topic.
Seriously - there IS a lot more to BSN than whining for more romances. Do you find more of it there than other forums? Sure, because BioWare games have more romance than most other game companies. But it's a small percentage of what is discussed.
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Many Kickstarter'd games weren't even going to offer boxed versions to save on cost, but there was enough of a groundswell from donators for a reward tier with a boxed version as an option that most changed their mind (some after pretty strongly arguing against a boxed version as being too costly.)
Obsidian likely did it's research and knew it'd be a popular reward tier and a good way to raise additional funds (as long as the tier with the physical rewards was significantly large enough of a donation.)
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I was tired of "Chosen Ones" back when the Matrix hit theaters. Before that I was indifferent to them.
If I'm the guy who wants to make my party of adventurers to control, clearly I'm not projecting myself into one role. And, clearly, I'm not looking to play "the most important person in the universe." Add to this that I personally dislike stories that rely on "prophecy" or "fate" or "destiny"...
Well, you can guess my vote at this point.
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If a Kickstarter campaign succeeds, the project is already funded.
This is not true.
From Nataly Dawn's Blog:
Take a trip with me back in time to one year ago, when I was beginning my own Kickstarter project. I set the goal at $20,000, even though I was quite aware that I would not be able to make the album I wanted to make without reaching at least $80,000. The support from my fans, however, was overwhelming – $104,000 – more than I was even willing to hope for. But here’s the great thing about having a public budget: everyone wants a piece. The reasonable $80,000 budget that I had put together did NOT leave room for all of the extra expenses, nor for the fact that most people charged a primo rate for their services. Not that I BLAME them, mind you. I would have done the same had I been in their shoes.Now you may say 'This is a professional games studio, not some flakey indie singer' but the point is: Obsidian may have made a number of reasonable assumptions demanding additional scale.
No, what I'll say is -
1 - He set his goal at 20k even though he admits he wouldn't be able to do it without at least 80k.
2 - Turns out he was wrong how much he needed
There are plenty of stories of people/businesses doing Kickstarters and not having the money they thought they would... especially those who set up too many physical rewards to have to give out.
This is a bunch of game developers with a lot of experience, included in that experience is what their game budgets cost.
Unforeseen expenses and delays could happen, yes. But, all things being equal, their KS funds will cover all costs of production. And those costs = all materials paid for, all the people working on the project paid their salary.
If the game sells ZERO COPIES, they worked on a game that (hopefully) they are proud of and were paid for their work - as long as the donators are happy, Obsidian could do another Kickstarter, raise the money for another game, rinse and repeat. I'm not in the business, but I would bet good money that a one month KS campaign is far quicker and easier than trying to get money from publishers - ask Brian Fargo if you don't believe me.
The reality is that the game WILL sell copies beyond the roughly 40,000 backer's "already paid for" ones. The game is targetting a very niche market, so I'd probably say it would sell (absolutely pulling a number out of almost thin air here) 70-100,000 copies, with MAYBE a ceiling of 250,000 copies. But I'd say the safe bet is like 100,000 copies sold post KS.
If all those sales are digital (yes, they almost certainly will be), most of that money goes right back to Obsidian. Even at 70,000 copies that all but pure profit.
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Your example is merely a cautionary tale for those looking to do a KS campaign with little to no business experience. It's important to note, but not really relevant.
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Investigating petty cults seems meh...I rather go right to exterminating them, you know, skip the boring parts.
We have different definitions of "boring" - slaughtering people does't entertain me.
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NWN 2 and KotOR both had great investigative sequences as well. I'm all for them.
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It really depends on what the system and game mechanics are...
but on a much more simplified, broader level, I'll try and list the "classes" I would like to see.
There's a lot of stuff I'd like to see tossed aside and have them build up some more interesting alternatives.
For one - get ready to hate me, 3E D&D fans - I want no multi-classing and no prestige classes. Make each class, by itself, worth taking and worth following through. Also, since it's a more limited budget and scope - don't take the time needed to balance multi-classing.
For two, continuing the previous thought, make each class it's own interesting and unique thing. Don't make mushy classes that are just kind of mixes of each other. Fighter, fighter/cleric, cleric, cleric/mage, mage, mage/thief... yeah, none of that. A good way to start would be to make at least some of the classes race, and more specifically, culture based. Like that dwarf ranger being based in the region she's from. Oh, wait, ranger... right... I'm fighting a losing battle here...
I guess those are the broad strokes.
I'm hesitant to even go down a path of "what I'd like to see" more specifically simply because I've no idea what the overall world and game mechanics and story are.
I guess, what we know about souls, I'd wager that "soul" will be some kind of measure of options. A resource or meter. So spells will drain it, perhaps, or all characters will get supernatural things they can do. How much that shapes classes, I cannot guess.
Clearly they will have the archetypes (again, we've been shown a ranger - of course, that term can just be a descriptive and not a class but still) so we can expect at least a fighter type, a mage type, and a rogue type. Whether there's an actual "cleric" class depends so much on how magic and gods work in the world. Almost as certain is that any more classes you have will be variations on those three types. Beyond that...
without more information, I refuse to even try and wish.
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People need to understand -
If a Kickstarter campaign succeeds, the project is already funded.
The only "failure" would be in the devs not finishing the game. Possibly a lesser success would be going over budget.
But everyone is paid once the Kickstarter is successful, and there are no investors to pay back.
Every game sold after the game is finished is pretty much pure profit.
So everyone worried about needing more funding, or Obsidian having to pay their staff, etc.
It's covered.
As for advertising and marketing... if they were doing their budgeting properly, that was also figured into their goals. AND once they are successful they get pretty much free publicity that the press will give for them succeeded - both at the end of the campaign, and on release of the game.
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Kicking it Forward is voluntary. It's an "on your honor" system. Everyone talking about "guilt" or "required" needs to take a deep breath and ask themselves if they felt "guilted" or "required" to donate to Obsidian's Kickstarter just because they were fans of Obsidian? It's not a perfect analogy, but still.
No one is saying they HAVE TO. Some of us think it would be a good idea if they decided to.
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Clearly I like it if it's my idea. In fact, the more I've thought about it the more I think things should be broken down even more... but, again, the focus of this is a possibility to address concerns others have.
I like the idea of having a skill monkey who barely know which end of the dagger to hold, or a mage who is more sage than battle wizard and is great for lighting up rooms or holding doors shut but is lucky if he can adequately distract an opponent in a scuffle with some confusing sounds.
Especially with a party. Especially with a party of NPC, fleshed out companions who might notice how not combat-ready you are and will, in dialog and such, act more protective (or, in some cases, judgmental) of you.
Digression aside -
I can't imagine that Obsidian won't do some kind of perks / backgrounds / traits system. For their more original worlds / games (those not heavily based on existing systems, like D&D or WoD) it is kind of a staple. And you've had this kind of character tweaking specifically in Fallout... but what I'm suggesting here is both more broadly assigned to all characters as well as more specific on shaping the kind of character you want to make.
Honestly, you can make a skill-oriented fighter. It means that, in combat, you uses armor and swords but that, overall, you're more focused on, say, diplomacy, noticing details and maybe repairing arms and armor. If you just step outside of the box, separate combt from non-combat... and then understand a class like fighter or mage as "this is how I handle things in combat" as opposed to "this is how I solve ALL my problems (with a sword or spell, as the case may be)" then I think you begin to get the idea.
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Romances, yay or nay?
in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted · Edited by Merin
That's a good attempt at a diversion, especially with selective quoting.
You're statement, as stands, implies that more people are shot in a week in Chicago than people are being shot a week in Afghanistan.
But the story you are trying to quote from is only about Americans, not people. There are a greater number (not percentage, just raw number) of citizens in Chicago shot in that given study than American soliders in Afghanistan.
My point was living in Chicago doesn't mean you'll get shot. You have a .0084 percent chance of being shot. (sorry for my previous failure to convert decimals to percenatges - being correct - and the ratio remains the same) To give you a comparitive idea, the chances of you being struck by lightening in your lifetime is .033 percent. You are nearly 4 times as likely to be hit by lightening in your life than to be shot in Chicago.
Your rebuttal was to make it seem more dangerous to live in Chicago than to live in Afghanistan - patently untrue. But even if the study you were referring to is what you MEANT (American soldiers, not people in Afghanistan in general), you still have a much higher percent chance of being shot as a soldier (.1426 percent - again, fixing decimal to percentage here) than as someone in Chicago (.0084 percent.)
16 times more likely to be shot and killed as a US soldier in Afghanistan. Your point was empirically wrong.
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What does this have to do with romance?
About as much as bashing BSN.