Valorian

It soothes my soul, sweetykitty, to help you free yourself from all the accumulated waste inside your cranium. You're like a fountain! I'm also proud that I've taught you a variety of new expressions that have enriched your vocabulary (seems like remembering is not a forbidden art in sweetykitty-land anymore). Bravo sweetykitty.

Sweetykitty, your brutal assault against reality is indeed spectacular.

Also, I'm not the one who's staying up at 1.00am in the morning to try and win an internet debate. You're the one showing us who really is trying to win an internet debate by staying up all night and morning and then whining about staying up so late. What's even more funny is not happy with making one quote, you had to break it up into two parts to get every last word in. Oh indeed, I also observed this particular psychosis exhibited by sweetykitty. It constantly scans the forum, looking for replies to its briiilliant ideas, then immediately tries to drown the "opponent" in an unimaginable quantity of rotten&radioactive waste (cutely calling it arguments&points) that only few are brave enough to tackle. I can imagine what would happen if its cellar caught fire. *things crash and burn around sweetykitty while it furiously types a reply to part 95 of a post atomized into 100 quotes* *firefighters come to the rescue and break down the cellar door* Firefighter #1: ... "What is that thing in front of the monitor!?" Firefighter #2: "I don't know, but it seems alive! We should rescue it!" Sweetykitty: *gazing at the monitor* "NO! NO! I'm almost done! I'm on page TWO! LET ME REPLY TO HIIIROOO!" *firefighters quietly back away*

It's all in your head, sweetykitty, you have to defy the voices.

Sweetykitty! I'm disappointed. I let you have the whole stage just for yourself, hoping you'll stop throwing diarrheal temper tantrums... Unfortunately, every time someone expresses doubts about your unique espionage RPG project, you experience a succession of meltdowns: *** It is with great sadness that I inform our dear readers that, after spending several days angrily stomping its feet, sweetykitty destroyed the stage and collapsed together with it.

Sadly, no theory could be proven until someone gets his hands to a live specimen and vivisects him (therefore making the world a more pleasant place for all to live in). Maybe if you nicely ask your grandma to give you the cellar key, and the other one for your chains... I dunno, maybe she will let you satiate your urges to kill things in the garden?

I still remember You still remember? Wasn't memory off-limits in your universe?

I am touched by your concern -- really -- and flattered that you want to make this thread all about poor little me, but really, Valorian, I don't merit the attention. So thank you for your kind offer, but I am going to decline it. Please, is there anything I could do to change your mind? I'd really like to help you overcome the urge to torture yourself with RPGs. Perhaps.. hmm.. Reputation and influence systems are very similar to espionage/encounter-scaling systems as proposed by sweetykitty. Almost identical, really. There's no reason to dislike one system, if you like the other. Is this good enough? You win! I'm sending you the 'victor of debate crown' as we speak, but please let me help you now.

The fact that you have specifically memorized the exact topic said post has appeared in for future-use-in-discrediting Sweetykitty! :D Memory doesn't work like that. How could I explain the concept of memory to a member of an almost-sentient species.. hmm. Let's say that PJ's cry for help was quite impactful and, I have to admit, a little bit amusing. We also have this very useful thing called search engines so you can search for all kinds of stuff with key words. It mostly takes a few seconds, really. Also, why do you imply that PJ's words discredit him? Do not use this evil word. His cry for help does not discredit him. He just needs our help to end his self-torture. Sweetykitty! You'd rather see this topic closed, shutting down your espionage RPG project, than let me help you and PJ? But, you assured me that everything is okay and your violent tantrums are a thing of the past!?

Sweetykitty, that hole beneath you is getting deeper and deeper. It is time to cease stomping the cellar floor with your feet, I think. You see my dear, in the world of sentient beings, memory is not an unknown feat. It may seem like (soul) magic to you, but it really isn't. I'm also aware that this has turned into your cry for help, as well. No worries, I have enough love for you both, and more. Perhaps a brain transplantation would solve your particular sweetykitty-amoebe issues, but alas that's not possible yet so I'm just going to soothe your soul. And PJ's, of course. Much pain... so much.

Val's just so cute when he's sulking, isn't he? I love how he totes wants to discuss on-topic subjects like PoE, and BG 1-2. Apparently he wants to do it so much that he will even insist on introducing his PM conversations about PJ's absolutely relevant self-torture issues to the topic! *pats on head* There there, you have gotten the attention you so crave, now go play with your friends. Awww, sweetykitty, your words of comfort are much appreciated. Although, I wonder.. I let you on the stage so you can have a platform to elaborate that cra.. that next-gen-AI espionage RPG of yours. Why are you still stomping your feet on the ground in a violent tantrum? You'll ruin your grandmother's cellar. Actually, you're a bit confused, PJ's cry for help was very public: It is my intention to help our mutual buddy and prevent further self-torture. Because that's the responsible thing to do.

I'll gladly pass you the crown of the victor if it's so important for you, but let me help you, please. Having a compulsion to torture yourself is not healthy, PJ. Sending me a PM was the right step, yes, but I'd prefer to discuss it in public. Surely, there will be other people with valuable suggestions and helpful advices regarding your self-torture issues.

I have answered quite a few of your questions. Now, being the polite person that you are, you'll realize that it's your turn to respond to my queries. Not being interested anymore in discussing the crappy spy&exploit project/idea generated in the mind of amoebe3, which is off-topic for both BG and PoE, I'd like to go back to on-topic subjects. Like, PoE style games; BG 1 and 2 etc. So.. why do you torture yourself with PoE style games, hmm? It is clearly an exceptionally frustrating experience for you. You constantly ruin things for yourself and as a result you're unable to enjoy anything. This is a serious issue, I'd like to help you. What could be the solution to your problem? You prefer extensively discussing PoE style games rather than playing them, yes? Similarly to, say, a good portion of soccer fans who're unable to play so they focus on being fans and discussing the game? But.. I don't know, it seems different after all.. because I believe they're actually not frustrated with soccer itself. Hmm, tough one.

Would you like me to give you another 30 minutes so you can edit your post for the 10th time? Which is pretty much the same thing you just did? ...You were saying something about... hypocrisy, was that it? That's not hypocrisy, kitty. I'm not scolding people (selectively, knitting-circle based) not to call people this and that and then calling people **** and ****. That's hypocrisy. Oh, you'd like to change subject to discuss a system that heavily incentivizes specialisation, built around an adaptive AI? I'd prefer to discuss something PoE-related. I like flexible systems. With party members, different weapons, varied armor. You can change all of that, including party composition. You specialize in, say, tactics A and tactics B. You're clever enough to build your party so that it's flexible enough (talking in general), and very good with both A and B. On week 3, spies notice you're using tactics A quite a lot.. and then they totally prepare to defeat you with tactics C, but you're bright enough to use tactics B when you fight them and they're utterly confused and helpless. You repeated your design visions more than 3 times and you could repeat them another million times, but it'd still be nonsense. I kind of think they wouldn't need to send spies and use soul magic to notice that their underlings are getting slaughtered. I suppose they'd see that some people are missing and replace them if they're able to do so. Undoubtedly, you see the difference between a monster with specific abilities and a system design decision (like no pre-buffs) that would affect only the player and his party? That said, I leave the stage for you to discuss and elaborate pertinent details and technicalities, and wish you good luck with your espionage RPG project. I'm sure that in a few years you'll be able to set a solid foundation for something sensible, with the help of Lephys and PJ.

Why yes of course. On the other hand if you answer an observation like "you tend to nitpick on the details, but don't engage with my core argument" with being a condescending little ****, maybe you should not be surprised if people call you out both on being a condescending little **** and treating a fairly values-neutral statement as the same as being a condescending little ****. Hon, you're losing your temper. I suppose it's frustrating to be dwarfed intellectually, but at least try to embrace reality and restrict your hypocrisy (in relation to, but not limited to, your knitting-circle buddy who goes around calling people obtuse). I admit I like to mock certain forms of life, yes. Nope, you still don't get it, at all. This is the part that's exploitable. AI adapting attacks and defenses based on what was previously observed. Increasing forces and using general pre-buffs has nothing to do with ADAPTING to specific tactics that were "observed by the AI". Repeat it a thousand times, please. You're still, sadly, unable to comprehend that we're on PoE's forum, which is more or less envisioned as a place to discuss PoE-related things and in the PoE-related universe pre-buffing is not allowed.

But why shouldn't it? Why is the way you interact with people fair game for a reputation system, but your party composition and favorite tactics not? "Fair game", "very similar", "equally likable", "an extension".. decide already. I haven't mentioned "fair game", so let's go back to your non-mutated original question about why is it different, if you're still interested in finding out. In a reputation system, you see, we're talking about your party gradually accumulating like/dislike points for various factions; you lose points for some factions, but get some for others. They react to your reputation when you interact with them. There's no "best way". It's pure role-playing. In your defective spy,scry&scam system, it's all about combat encounters, spies collect data with the purpose of adapting their forces to be more difficult for you to overcome. Simple, ya? But, these informations, particularly for metagamers like you who start the game over and over again and read all possible guides, would just be a boon to adjust their party accordingly and exploit it as best as they can. Why do you play RPGs if they frustrate you so much? Are you a masochist? So it's a horribly flawed idea, but also you would do it? Good stuff. "What if we tried to sneak into the castle?" "THAT WILL NEVER EVER WORK AND IS A STUPID IDEA! Here's how I'd do it, though..." I don't know if you can fathom what I'm getting at, but, finding out how it could work is kind of the goal of discussing ideas on this forum. Not criticizing the sheer idea over all the ways in which it couldn't work. If you wanna point ways in which not to do it, that's awesome. That's actually constructive. Pointing out how "the idea's bad because I can think of things more specific than the idea itself that don't work, and attribute those to perceieved flaws in the idea" is not cutting it. It's like someone says "Hey, we should make a grocery run for the party!", and saying "NO, MY COUSIN'S ALLERGIC TO CHILI! THAT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA!". Great. 'Cause we were gonna buy groceries at random, without actually deciding what groceries to buy. That makes having food at the party a bad idea. I pointed out the flaws of several defective systems that have been proposed so far, explained why they're very exploitable and also suggested something different that would be acceptable for me, if implemented (not that I'd push for it). Your level of inanity is insurmountable. I'll quote Stun's response to one of your many inane comments: "Enough already".

But surely, if he intends to share his perception of people's "modus operandi" then he should also accept, like a grown up baby, that other people could comment his, yes? I'm certain he appreciates you being his feelings advocate though. 1) The wraith "example" of haunting the party in the tavern while they sleep was an obvious joke.. or mocking, if you will. You thought I was serious? Oh, you obviously did, considering your reaction. 2) Defenses against specific attacks like... slashing or freeze attacks, or what? Also, please, try to understand that preparing for EVERYTHING isn't the same as preparing to specifically counter something. You don't need spies to prepare and pre-buff against everything. 3) Please, try to understand that bringing in reinforcements isn't logically connected to your spy&scry adaptation. They don't need to organize an espionage mission (collecting data on the player's "favorite attacks") to be aware that they'll benefit from having a robust army with plenty of people in it. This sounds more like level scaling than anything else. (Naturally, assuming it's a system where pre-buffing is actually allowed.) No. I mean the **** you've been babbling about for ~5 pages now.

The personal style part is at the top of this page, actually. It's unreasonable to ask you to follow the topic in which you're actively posting, I take it. Seeing PoE's subforums are this huge mass with thousands of posts per day and all. I see. I don't suppose you could point out my "strawman arguments"? I noticed that "strawman argument!" is this popular umbrella knee-jerk reaction that is unleashed whenever the poster's arguments and examples get crushed. There are exceptions, but you're definitely not an exception. I know.. I apologize to everyone whose feelings were hurt. *compassionately hugs all emotionally scarred peeps* I don't see why a defective system as described and suggested by you and PJ should find its way into a decent RPG and I have no intention to fix it for you.

Could we please try arguing the points, not the people who made them for a change? The first thing I have said when I proposed this system was "it's probably outside the scope of PoE". You would kinda need to balance your whole system around it. It would also make the game more fun and varied, I believe. Cool. But if you're going to play moderator, then do a throughout job and lecture your knitting-circle friend when he comments posters' "styles" and spouts **** like "Gfted1, question. Are you being intentionally obtuse or just genuinely blockheaded?" I don't think I said anything controversial. In both cases it's an easily observed fact. @Lephys. Why would I argue in favor of a system that I dislike? I mention the flaws... because, duh, there are many. And if you read carefully (and you don't, you're too occupied typing furiously), you'll also read that I did say how I'd do it (one or two special ambush encounters).

You've been doing this the whole time since you first appeared on this forum, literally. The rock paper scissors (crushy shocky blabla) is easy to counter. If I mention a more nuanced and complicated system then it's "arguing against the subsystems someone specifically removed from his examples".

You reiterated it, after I pointed it out, by saying: "No reason you couldn't add some, though, e.g. have the AI default to an aggressive script if it determines that it's more likely to work against your hitherto-observed tactics." The urge to inject pseudo-intellectual philosophy in everything is too strong for you to resist, so I understand that you often get quite confused and say things that you're ashamed of later, after you reread them a few times. However, it's rather easy to demolish your bad AI. There's no reason to consider it an extension of the reputation system, because the reputation system doesn't track your combat tactics and doesn't "adapt" and ruin encounters based on the type of armor you wear and the weapons you use. Saying that I should like it because I could like a reputation system is as absurd as playing the game like this: Not surprisingly, the source of absurdity is the same person.

What makes you think they'll be allowed to pre-buff when we know it's not possible? And what if they do pre-buff, say, against slashing and freeze damage... and then you use crushing weapons and crackling bolts? Bringing extra manpower is irrelevant here. Wasn't the point of this system to "adapt" based on espionage and not to bring MOAR? They can bring more regardless of spies. If it's *moar* they want, then they'll just bring everyone and their grandmother so they'll most likely be able to counter something. @PJ Are you now in attempt-at-humor mode? An espionage system that changes combat encounters (and cripples them more often than not) is not "very similar" or "similar" to Obsidian's reputation or influence systems. An adaptive combat AI that "defaults to an aggressive script if it determines that it's more likely to work against your hitherto-observed tactics" is simpler to implement... than?

Don't worry about that, PoE's systems will allow much flexibility. Every group of weapons you can specialize in has all 3 physical damage types covered, for example. But what's the point of this "layer of strategy" if the direct product is crippled encounters? Right, how can we say no to verisimilitude? Anyway, the spy group in question is certainly quite resourceful.

...And you have arrived at this conclusion exactly how? Because letting them escape to make a detailed report on how you fight, armor and weapons used and so on... and then doing the exact opposite when you encounter this spy group is more beneficial.

I was, but I removed them from my "at its simplest" example. No reason you couldn't add some, though, e.g. have the AI default to an aggressive script if it determines that it's more likely to work against your hitherto-observed tactics. What's your opinion on reputation systems, party influence systems, and alignment/karma systems, by the way? Oh. Sounds quite simple for the AI to observe, determine and categorize your tactics and then appropriately adjust itself to be, say, aggressive. Too bad the player can change his tactics on the fly. I like reputation and influence systems. Says you. While I think that doing sidequests to literally adjust the composition of an encounter (say, paying off the mercenary bodyguards of the big bad to switch sides, stealing the grimoire of the wizard, blowing up the gunpowder supply of the soldiers to eliminate their firearms) is very much desirable. Yes, and I also say that you experienced a critical failure of logic here. Your examples are means to accomplish something to benefit your party. That possibility is there to purposely make the encounter easier if you succeed in your action to thwart something. In your spy and scry system, you'd be better off not thwarting anything. Isn't this spy & scry system supposed to make encounters more challenging because they're meant to adapt to counter your party?