patronkus

The Librarians of the Forgotten Sanctum are some of the most devious enemies in the game but it doesn't end with them, most enemies in the DLC are very tough. The vithracks aren't the worst and the spore enemies are tolerable but the high level humanoids like the Librarians are just horrifying. Notably, the high level monks/barbarians are simply awful. In my current run I have a Barbarian Watcher and it took me so long to figure out why he would instantly die when engaged by the Librarians. It was because of Barbaric Retalliation chaining between the 2 fighters leaving both instantly dead after getting into a barb retalliation loop. Not only the Barbarians but the Monks are also horrifying. They run up on you and do tons of damage and CC you. Moreover, they have amazing defences and plentiful resistances/immunities. Are there any good strategies to dealing with the FS librarians?

Reason I don't mention Clear Out is because Barb Retalliation or Heart of Fury offers similar effects. The obvious counterargument is Clear Out comes available much earlier though which is valuable. I suppose something that puts me off Druid at the higher PL is the good stuff is summons which I generally avoid because it can cause performance issues for me. I know the Summons can be powerful and resseruction is handy but they are 2 things I personally avoid when I play. Summons for the performance issue and usually I will just reload if someone dies because to me it means I ****ed up (even if the fight is still going to be a win).

After coming back to the game and playing ~100 hours in the past 2 weeks, I have a few thoughts relating to the classes and would like to write them out (mainly for my own clarifications). In those 100 hours I have only played SC characters in a 5 man party, the reason for this is just to avoid the choice paralysis of multiclassing. Going into the actual class evaluations, I had the following takeaways (consider I did not test every combo, every subclass or even some classes extensively). I played on Upscaled (All) POTD btw. TLDR Tier List: Top Tier: Barbarian, Monk, Cipher, Priest, Wizard Mid Tier: Druid, Chanter, Rogue, Paladin Low Tier: Ranger (could be good but I hate pet classes), Fighter Barbarian: Incredible tanking option and one of the 2 melee characters I consider bringing. Barbarian has lots of advantages, it's tough, has lots of damage, can cause some decent afflictions and has good longevity by recovering resources/converting healing to damage. Barbarian is an excellent tank because of it's durability and high HP. Instead of being an avoidance tank (knocking Hits/Crits down to Grazes/Hits or avoiding them entirely with high defences) Barb has tons of HP and damage reduction/offset. With Savage Defiance (I think thats the name), Unflinching, Thick Skinned and some heavy armor, your Barb can take a ton of hits and even better, hit as good as they get hit. Barbaric Smash is fantastic for damage, the shout trees are very good for applying some low tier afflictions but have nice return (-MIG for incoming damage and -RES for lowered enemy PL_ through abilities like Spirit Frenzy or the Shouts. At high level Barbaric Retalliation, Blood Surge and Driving Roar or Dazing Shout are just incredibly strong. Barbaric Retalliation is hilariously powerful for tanking as your Barb will begin clearing the chaff by itself. Dazing Shout reduces enemy PEN making your Barb even tankier and Driving Roar with Blood Thirst is just insane for damage. What's more is that your Barb can position amazingly for tanking with Leap. Leap into a spot with your back to the wall, wait for everything to clump up while the rest of your party is waiting in stealth either casting long cast time spells like summons or big blasts or buffing. IMO Barb is the clear tanking option because it does a good enough job of staying alive and inflicts the best status effect in the game, death, on enemies the fastest. Chanter: Chanter has a big benefit of renewing resources but it's at the cost of those resources coming pretty slowly. I don't really think Chanter is super worth bringing because they are just too slow. While your Barb is clearing fights singlehandedly by Blood Thirst Barb Smashing through everyone, your Chanter is still casting their first spell. The problem with chanter isn't the abilities, they are quite potent including the best Summons and potent blasts like Eld Nary but they just take forever to get off. There is Sasha Singing Scimitar which helps but I still found it not exactly worth the investment of a party slot. I know Skald and Troubador can get invocations faster but it just wasn't enough to get the pacing right IMO. To me Chanter is just too slow for party play, obviously it's incredible with Solo. Cipher: Incredible class with so many options it's crazy. You can do so much with Cipher it'd be hard for them to be bad. I tried an Ascendant first which was great but I geared them for damage which was far eclipsed by other classes (like Barb). The Cipher would Ascend and go into spamming Amp Wave for big damage and knockdowns. The damage was fine, the CC was nice but it didn't pump as hard as I hoped even with all the gear investment. What I then tried was Beguiler and found the real power of Cipher. A beguiler is just amazing, they have super long range spells to keep safe in the backline, amazing ACC with all the Cipher passives to boosting VS Will and devastating afflictions they can apply. You Beguiler can apply basically every affliction singlehandedly and have focus to spare. It's fantastic, you can have chain Paralyse, Sicken, Frighten, Dazed, Dominate, Confused etc and all the while your Cipher never has to attack with their weapon as their spells fuel more spells in an incredible loop. They won't do any damage but who cares when half the enemies are Paralysed, 2 are Dominated and the rest are Frightened. Incredible class with amazing versatility. Druid: To me Druid underperformed sadly. I tried Teheku for Watershaper and while the Foe Only spells are nice, the damage they offer isn't that great and while nice to just AFK and automate his spells, you might as well just bring a Wizard and be a bit attentive to your targetting. I tried Animist as well mainly yo get access to Plague of Insects but was bit dissapointed. Even stacking PL with Lance of the Midwood Stag and Spider Silk Robes, my Druids damage was lower than Vatnirs by quite a margin. Moreover, the high investment in Poison is pretty rough given many enemies are Poison immune making spells like Venombloom and Plague of Insects useless. Furthermore the Druid spells I was investing in were gave big return over a long time but I found most enemies didn't last long enough to cash in that return. The healing was nice but I just didn't find the Druid blasting like I wanted. Moreover some of the Druid PLs are really subpar, mostly the high level ones like 6/7/8/9. While there are good spells like Venombloom and Great Maelstrom the rest are pretty mid and while Great Maelstrom is OP it's super boring so I just didn't abuse it. I'm sure if I abused Maelstrom it would've been way better (maybe gone Fury, Chromoprismatic Staff, Deltro Cage etc) but IMO it's just a bit boring. Fighter: Not a class I really used a lot but on paper it just looks sub par. I would've used it as a tank but it doesn't offer much besides being an invincible meat wall. Your enemies will die from old age before they kill the fighter sure but your fighter won't make much progress towards killing them either. In contrast to the Barb, while the Fighters survivability is significantly better, it doesn't do anything with that survivability. I know there is some Overbearing Guard stuff you can do with big engagement keeping enemies on the Fighter but unlike POE 1, Prone is not a condition that can be extended in duration it just happens and is over. I did not see much reason to SC fighter either and thought it is way more appealing as an MC. Monk: Unsurprisingly an amazing class. First run I went with a Monk watcher and good god this class is insane. I don't think I need to say too much here, it's common knowledge Monk is powerful but when I discovered Grave Calling + Monk it was just stupid. Your Monk is applying Weaken and Paralyse on hit, can Stun, has infintie summons, tons of inspirations, renewable resources etc etc. Amazing class, the other melee alongside Barb I'd consider being top of their class. Paladin: To me Paladin was much like Beguiler as the unseen but impactful hand. The paladin brings Inspirations for the party, healing and damage reduction. I was a bit dissapointed in Sacred Immo tbh, it doesn't do near as much damage as in POE 1 and the self Raw damage is crazy high. Also they tend to use a ton of Zeal if you want to give out Exhortations to everyone and still use some abilities, you'll be 5 or 6 Zeal down out the gate and that leaves very little for the Paladin to do after their Zeal is expended. I know you can use Chanter skellies to recover Zeal but IMO those 2 classes even together aren't exactly worth bringing. Maybe instead of Sword and Board you go Dual Wield with some Sabres for more damage with FoD and to like White Flames for healing as well but not sure. As it was, Paladin didn't underperform but didn't outstand either. Priest: Incredibly versatile class that can do a bit of everything. Symbols solo fights, PL 9 is fantastic for them, Minor Avatar is super strong, even nerfed SoT is amazing etc etc. I used Vatnir and a Wael priest and both were amazing. Vatnir does so much damage with his Symbol, Freezing Pillar and Call of Rymrgand it's absurd. His Incarnate is also super strong and he still gets all the great priest spells like Hand of Wael and Woe to circumvent Freeze DR. Wael Priest brought great afflictions with Confusion and Gaze of the Adragan and showed me how insane Blessing of Wael is. An aura that can apply -10 INT, PER and RES all at once for an insane reduction in enemy defences. Also funny if Combo'd with Efforts Haemorraging to apply Sickened and Hobbled too. Phenomenal class IMO that brings whatever you want/need it to. Ranger: I just cannot stand pet classes I am sorry so I did not play much Ranger enough to comment on it. Rogue: Tried a Gambit Rogue out and it was fine I suppose. The damage wasn't that high and got inconsistent Guile Recovery. I think Trickster is the way to go but I've yet to try it out. Wizard: Amazing class any way you slice it. I tried out both Fassina and a Blood Mage to great effect. Fassina with Blackbow is incredible. Not much damage but so much Terrify it's so much CC enemies can't do much to retalliate. If the Blackbow doesn't work she still had a full reportoire of spells including Freezing Pillar, Combusting Wounds, Chill Fog, Corrosive Skin etc etc. Blood Mage is OP as everyone knows so not much to comment on there. Wizard is just super powerful in this game, you can get comparable spellcasts to POE 1 with Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry and Rekvu Helm but it's Per Encounter which is hilarious. Not much will be left standing after your wizard has has dumped their spellbook onto the enemies, including allies which is the biggest thing to worry about.

Ah gotcha, all good, just wanted to confirm my finding. Still a great post!

I tried testing Sungrazers Return Orbit and didn't find much success. Scordeo's Edge Double Strike works as you would expect but Sungrazer did not. I tested various things for it including Freezing Pillar and Mind Plague for lots of hits (hits with afflictions, damage etc) and didn't get it to proc. Blunt Rock did proc however.

Was messing around with some stuff and found this interaction. No idea what is happening but I had a Cipher holding Currents Rush spamming spells to see if they would proc High Tide. The spells didn't but when I had the CIpher auto attack and proc High Tide it created this crazy feedback loop. In the screenshot you can see 4 procs of High Tide and in the other screenshot you can see every High Tide proc (it's like a billion). Not sure if this is a known interaction or not but it's interesting nonetheless.

Actually huge post, thanks!

My wizards are generally a bit fragile since I put them in Robes to dump their spellbooks as fast as possible but I know they can be durable if built right. I don't think Maelstrom needs changes, it's a bit overtuned but I think the druid kit is designed with it in mind power budget wise. I wouldn't change it and leave people like myself who aren't the biggest fans of it to decide for themselves whether they'd like to use it or not. I'll compare it to BDD, a spell that is pretty broken but I wouldn't change it, instead I'll just limit my usage of it and only use it in absolutely necassary dire scenarios.

I actually do think there is a bit of a difference between Maelstrom and those spells you listed. Not sure about Salvo but Symbols and Meteor Shower have a very short range making them very risky to use. Maelstrom doesn't, it can be cast from super far away making it safe and convenient opener. That safety is being able to consistently open a fight from stealth with Maelstrom and basically win it before it starts. You can't really do that with Meteor Shower or Symbol (in some cases you can but its nowhere near as consistent or safe). Furthermore it feels like the DPS of Maelstrom is a lot higher. Symbol of Rymrgand (just using this example as I play mostly with Vatnir) has a duration of 20 seconds, Maelstrom has a duration of 6 seconds. That means even if the damage they do is the same in total, you are getting that damage so much faster with Maelstrom and its wiping fights before it can even start. I can't comment with as much certainty for Shower or Salvo because I typically bring Fassina (Conjurer gets no Evocation so no Salvo or Shower) but to me, on paper, the range of Shower makes it so much less appealing. Your wizard has to be basically in Melee with your foe to get the effect to go off and by that point your wizard could easily be dead. Maelstrom is easily fired off before combat from deep in the backline. Moreover it makes Shower so much harder to start a fight with, unlike Maelstrom which is so easily cast from Stealth for massive damage it clears so much chaff. That said, I think you are correct in pointing out that the PL 8/9 spells are quite strong and overshadow other options probably by design as they are meant to entice you to SC but IDK something about Maelstrom just turns me off. It's a bit like Monk and Whispers of the Wind. While a super powerful combo that makes SC the way to go, it just isn't interesting and overshadows everything else by being so domineeringly powerful.

Woah, I had no idea 14 Pen is pretty juiced.

So POE 1 had Suppression, a mechanic which limited bonuses into stats by just taking the highest of any bonuses. Deadfire took this out in exchange for the simplified Inspiration system but there are still non inspiration bonuses floating about. Today, I was messing around with my Barbarian and testing out Guardian Plate for him. Plagued Strength looked really nice, it gives +2 MIG, CON and DEX so I thought to combo it with Taru Turu Chew (+3 MIG, CON and DEX) and Frenzy (Strong + Fit) to get +10 MIG and CON. What I did not know is that when I checked my stats, Taru Turu Chew did not list as applied and the value added to my Barbarians MIG and CON was +7 not +10. After some more testing, it seems the bonus from Taru Turu Chew is Suppressed by the Inspirations as it is better. I had no idea about this and it applies to like everything. This is probably already well known by this point from Deadfire experts but I had no idea. Now I will be using Mouth Char instead for my Barbarian but it got me wondering what other people are going to use as their Drug bonus. For instance I had Fassina using Taru Turu Chew too but Citzal's Martial Might already covers all those bonuses (MIG, CON, DEX) but now that is useless as it is just superceded by the inspirations. What other Suppression effects are there in the game I should be aware of?

I tend to agree Great Maelstrom is a bit of a brain off just I win button. It isn't a very fun ability and for me after the first few casts I just stopped using it because it was boring. I keep it just in case but I prefer not to have to use it. Also because Great Maelstrom is so good it means the rest of the Druid kit has to be depowered to compensate. I'd prefer to see Great Maelstrom nerfed a bit and maybe PL 6/7/8 buffed.

IMO Great Maelstrom is a bit of a problem spell. It is too good, it singlehandedly clears out encounters and if it ever runs out of sauce you can just Empower it and it becomes even more problematic. It's stupid powerful and makes every other Druid spell look pathetic in comparison. When you class becomes "Great Maelstrom" that doesn't feel good and to me is a bit of an issue.

Plague of Insects into IoM seems very good. You have a DOT ticking at a fixed rate which is unhelpful for shorter fights but great for long ones and then you compound that with a DOT that rumps up over time. EDIT: Teheku can pick it because its a Decay not Beast spell.

Of the Druid subclasses, these feel like the real standouts to me. Animist gets it all, which is really nice, you can use Plague of Insects, Infestation of Maggots, Returning/Relentless Storm, Moons Light, Moonwell etc etc. You can all the nice things with no benefits but getting all the sauce feels good enough to me. Watershaper gets a list of unique spells that are also cast uniquely. While Teheku is the only one who can access it and he doesn't have the best stats, for the sake of this exercise lets ignore Tehekus stat shortcomings. You lose Fire and Beast spells in exchange for these frost/water spells. The loss of some of those Beast spells hurts a lot, notably Insect Swarm and Plague of Insects and Fire is kinda whatever. You gain however, Foe Only Chill Fog (!) and Foe Only Freezing Pillar (!) among others but those really stand out. Fury loses Rejuvanation spells to empower Element spells. This empowerment is in the form of Range and PEN, 2 very handy boosts. You do lose a lot though in the form of Natures Balm for Robust, Moonwell, Moons Light etc. Overall, all 3 have merits and all 3 have weak points. Watershapers loss of Plague of Insects could not be as big of a deal due to it being Poison and some foes being Poison immune. The prevalance of this Poison immunity would be the deciding factor on this one. Fury penalty of losing Rejuvanation really blows, you lose a lot of healing which is something the druid is very good at in exchange for more blasting. This kinda comes down to your comp IMO, do you have a tank that negates a lot of damage like a Figher through misses/grazes or a tank like a Barb who is a damage sponge at makes great use of the healing. It does still hurt to lose those heals in pinch situations where they can come in super clutch. Animist gains no unique bonuses unfortunately and just does it all which for spellcasters in my mind is a big boon. As opposed to your martial types who do one thing very well your spellcasters can benefit a lot from versatility, for instance circumventing high AR through swapping damage types as opposed to just powering through it through abilities. For me, I just can't pick whats best so IMO Animist is go to but man those Watershaper spells are so appealing.

Agree, it does nothing by iteself by the obvious combo for me is Plague of Insects into IoM. 2 ticking dots at once and once grows more powerful over time accelerating the rate of damage.

I think if Magran spells were Foe only like Teheku as a Watershaper that could be a nice niche.

So Infestation of Maggots lists a damage value but that isn't what enemies take all the time? The listed value is the maximum and you get closer to that number as enemy HP decreases? Is this how it works?

Curious to know peoples preference for Priest subclasses. I have done 2 runs recently, 1 with Vatnir (and this was prior to me discovering the amazingness that is Rymrgand Incarnate) and 1 with a Wael Priest mainly for Confusion and Gaze of the Adragan. I've seen people using Skaen priest a lot but never tried it, to me the big Priest abilities are the Symbols which are incredible damage + CC + party friendly package. Magran also seems good as there are lots of items that benefit Fire keyword improving their featrues greatly. IMO Wael priest is really strong, the Symbol isn't as good as others as it doesn't apply an affliction but it does give Concentration which is nice. Wondering what other peoples Priest preferences are in general.

I know there are scrips for Immunities to say Poison or Fire but there seems to be none for being Immune to certain Afflictions. There are some for Affliction resistances but I can't seem to find any for immunities? Are they just not in the game or?

I have just finished my second all SC only run and feel like messing with some MC combos. In my SC runs I used most classes and found my tastes for which high PL abilities were desirable and which weren't. I valued a lot more high PL Barbarian, Monk and Priest spells over say Wizard or Druid. While spells like Great Maelstrom and Meteor Storm are amazing they aren't very party friendly and can be somewhat hazardous to use (Meteor Storms low range making it hard to fire off safely, Maelstroms massive AOE making it easy for party members to wander into it if you aren't being attentive). There are other spells too like Wall of Many Colors which is hazardous or Entropy which is niche that make the high PL Wizard and Druid features some that get uncast most fights. For me, most of the sauce in Wizard and Druid comes from the spells earlier in the progression. Gaze of the Adragan, Plague of Insects, Infestation of Maggots, Combusting Wounds, Ryngrims Enervating Terror, Natures Balm (I think, the 3rd level druid spell that gives Robust), Confusion etc. Tons of party friendly, damage and CC features which can be super impactful. These 2 lists have a bunch of great spells and IMO don't lose much from their top end features. To me, the painful losses are stuff like Caedebald Blackbow (great with Essential Phantom for a little terrify attack drone), Great Maelstrom (IMO those spell is a bit boring since its just a bit of an "I Win" button), Wilting Wind and Grimoire Imprint (this is for cheese but it is a loss to not have it). Thus I think you could ditch those top end features in favour of a wider breadth of lower end features that are still powerful. By MC Wizard and Druid you get 2 spell lists which don't share resources giving extended longevity at the cost of PL (since we ruled out the usefulness of the PL 8/9 Wiz Druid features above). The PL hit is unfortunate (especially for Plague of Insects) but not the end of the world. Moreover, since Wizard can largely be carried by it's Grimoires and Druid and Wizard share many features for spellcasting (i.e the PEN stuff, Spell Shaping, Rapid Casting etc) we have many talent points to use. Most of these will go to Druid because we actually need to get spells there. IMO the key spells are Natures Mark (nice Debuff), Infestation of Maggots (extra damage is good), Plague of Insects (the winner spell, this will clear out the chaff and deal tons of damage) and Nature Tonic (the PL 7 one that gives a potion, in BPM it just applies the potions effect as an AOE immediately). The idea is buff with Wizard spells, lay down Plague of Insects and Infestation of Maggots and then start CCing stuff with your Wizard spells to allow the Plague to tick. Spells like Gaze of the Adragan, Ryngrims Terror and Combusting Wounds will help not only you but your party as well. Can still bring stuff like Fireball to blast away what remains from the Plagues or Spiritshift with Wall of Draining to clear it out in melee. Just a general idea bouncing around in my head rn, IDK if it would actually work well since the reduced PL and itemisation difficulties (want PL for Wiz and Druid spells but hard to get both).

Sharpshooter is actually a great call, nets you another 15% Hit to Crit, compounding with Intuitive that's 40% total. I thought the invisible on kill boots (Shadow something I forgot the name) plus Ajamuts Hunting Cloak would be a great combo with this too. I noticed the Distraction Training change but it can be hard sometimes I find to have the enemies actually attack the pet. It feels like the best tanking setup in Deadfire is to have your tank run in while your party is stealthed, get surrounded and then nuke it all down. Can be a uncertain whether the enemy will leave the tank alone, engage the pet and then miss the pet just to roll that 15% chance.

So I'd like to do another playthrough but I am barring myself from Monk, Wizard, Cipher (maybe), Priest (maybe) and Barbarian. I used these 5 classes in my last playthrough and want something different for my next run. I say Maybe for Cipher and Priest but if their subclasses or different playstyles are different enough I'd be down for another go around the wheel with them, for instance a Magranite Priest or something. Regardless the remaining 6 classes of Chanter, Paladin, Rogue, Fighter, Druid and Ranger are left. Not super sure what to do with these classes to construct a party though, I figure I'll need a tank of some sort, either tha Paladin or Fighter (Probably Paladin since Exhortations are nice) and that leaves the other 4 to fill in. For Druid I think the important stuff to take would be Plague of Insects, Aspect of Galawain and Form of the Delemgan. Plague of Insects I think will just win fights but you'd have to survive long enough for the slow degeneration to work. Aspect of Galawain and Form of the Delemgan help the party survive for that duration. The rest I really am not sure about, haven't experimented with them much. Any reccomended builds or interactions that are fun/interesting synergies between these classes would be super helpful in planning this next run through out.

Gonna start marking my threads with the BPM + CP stuff for context. Looked at Veilpiercer and Ranger and thought they'd work out well together. The idea is to combo Twinned Shot, Driving Flight and Weightless Draw to spam shots from the bow. After testing it out it works super well (Intuitive from Shadowed Hunters helps this a lot) but has a big problem in that you run out of Bond super fast. I tried it with Ghost Heart and by the time you start spamming Twinned Shot you've already spent 5 Bond. 1 to summon the pet, 3 for Shadowed Hunters and 1 for Hunters Mark. Tbf it does work really well, you nut out a ton of damage super fast and it has the added benefit of stripping beneficial effects of enemies (-20% of 2 enemies per Twinned Shot). There are ways to get more Twinned Shots off, Devil of Caroc for +2 Bond and Brilliant but once you bottom out on Bond (which happens in like 10 seconds btw) you are pretty screwed if your foe isn't dead. Besides Veilpiercer, what other weapons are good for Ranger and what ways are there to get more Twinned Shots off with Veilpiercer?

Super funny you mention this. I did this fight today and had a Barbarian with Barbaric Retalliation in the party. I knew the feedback loop of Barbaric Retalliation from the Soul Mirror and my party member would just be insane so I used BDD on him first. I have to say watching my game stutter and lag before catching up seeing the following combat log was absolutely hilarious.