genci88

sup drog

As usual for me, online activation = no buy. I was having my doubts to begin with due to lack of save anywhere, but this sealed the deal. Plenty of other games out there...

Most of the RPGs I've played have had save anywhere. The only RPG where I have personally experienced checkpoint saves was Fable (though I have tried several demos like FFVIII, and in all cases that was the reason I didn't purchase the full game). I stopped playing that game after the first town was burnt (during the training part) simply because of the horrible save system. Specifically I would try to complete the training which was pretty damn long. Then I had to go somewhere in real life, but I couldn't manually save the game. So I just exited it. When I came back, I had to start the training from the beginning. So I simply said, "Screw this", uninstalled, and went on to play another game. However I have encountered checkpoint saves many more times outside the RPG genre, and have universally hated it. In some case it was less painful (but still a major inconvenience) such as in Call of Duty 4 or Resident Evil 4, and in some cases much more painful such as in Psychonauts. You might think that I am using harsh language when referring to people as "console kiddies", but the matter of fact is that console games do like their games more simplistic, casual, and streamlined (AKA dumbed down). It is simply the nature of the console that allows for the gamer to be less attentive to details, and often play while socializing with others. That removes a lot of the complexity and "deepness" that PC games have traditionally had. Of course there are exceptions to that rule such as the KOTOR series, Mass Effect, and Dreamfall. Regardless, before I buy a game, I always make sure it has save anywhere. The lack of it makes for a frustrating gaming experience (at least in my case). And I sure am not going to pay for packaged frustration.

Yet you achieve the same effect with checkpoints. No you don't. With save anywhere and auto saves, you can save wherever you want and wherever the developer thinks is appropriate to save. With checkpoints you only get the latter, thus removing the option from people who are not 8 year old kids and want to save where they think it's appropriate.

I consider PST to be a classic as well, and if that game used a checkpoint based system instead of save anywhere it would have been brushed off as a piece of crap by the critics of that time (not the critics of today though, who are nothing but a bunch of console kiddies). And I would have agreed with that. Face it, ALL the greatest RPGs utilize save anywhere. There is not a single good RPG out there with a checkpoint based save system. No, the FF7 that you mentioned is not one of the greatest RPGs simply because it is not an RPG. FF7 is a jRPG. That is an entirely different genre. AP is hopefully not trying to be a JRPG. Similarly Diablo 2 is considered a great game by many, but it's not an RPG. It's an action-RPG. An entirely different genre as well (there is pretty much no roleplaying in Diablo 2). The only reason checkpoint based system was invented was due to technical limitations (applicable to both consoles and old PCs of the 80s). Now those limitations are gone (at least in the case of PCs, since apparently MS still ships a version of X360 without a hard drive ), so there is absolutely no point in stopping the player from saving whenever he or she wishes.

Yeah, hopefully it's disc based. I usually avoid games that have online activation. Online activation is the most anti-consumer device ever invented.

I only play PC games. Concerns over the ability to save anywhere are irrelevant if the game is good. And you are wrong. As Dagon put it, when "you're constantly repeating stuff you already did successfully before failing something else" the frustration will be inevitable. And if a game manages to frustrate you, it is quite clear that it has failed. Look, RPGs (at least western ones) HAVE to have save anywhere. You mentioned FF7, but that's a JRPG. JRPGs are fundamentally different from western RPGs in both gameplay mechanics and storyline. AP is not trying to be the next JRPG as far as I know. You also have some western RPGs with checkpoint saves. Those are all games that have failed miserably. A prime example is Fable. I am sorry to say but Fable is one of the worst RPGs ever made, all thanks to it's checkpoint based save system. Developers might have the best intentions while developing the game, but lack of a save anywhere will most certainly reduce the gameplay to a childish experience.

Oh, you shouldn't have said that. *SLAM* Damn, I think I cracked it a little. :D

If I kill an enemy, it should stay dead after I save. I am not going to kill the same guy over and over and over to get past a point (which is further down the road and has nothing to do with the guy I am killing over and over) just because the game is defective by design. Sorry, but I have never heard anyone complain about the save anywhere in an RPG. On the other hand, I have heard a crapload of complaint about checkpoint save systems. And I wholeheartedly agree with those complaints. You console gamers who are used to checkpoints have fun with this game. I, on the other hand, will play one the thousands of other games out there; something that doesn't assume the player is a little kid.

OK let me see if I understand this correctly: we can save manually at anytime, but reloads happen at the last checkpoint. Will the enemies we killed after passing through that particular checkpoint but before manually saving stay dead when we reload? Will the stats and inventory be saved as well after reloading that manual save?

LOL @ Final Fantasy mention. So what if that game had save points? Maybe if I was 11 years old I would have enjoyed that garbage. FF7 is crap when compared to true RPGs like Arcanum, BG, Vampire: Bloodlines, Planescape Torment, Deus Ex, KOTOR 2 (from the fellas working on AP) and hundreds of other PC RPGs that allow you to save anywhere. You know, when you say "RPGs all have <x feature> excluding those that don't because I don't consider them RPGs" then you pretty much make yourself unfalsifiable, and hence, irrelevant. Cheers. FF is a JRPG (childish story, brainless gameplay, endlessly respawning monsters, and random battles). It's belongs to a different genre basically. I was referring to more traditional RPGs.

I understand that some people would exploit a manual save system simply because it's there. But how about making it a completely unsupported option and hard to access? Maybe requiring a .ini file edit to enable it? That way the people who really need it, can figure out how to enable it, while the rest can play the game as you intended it to be played. A lot of us are frequently interrupted while gaming for whatever reason, and it would be nice to create a manual save in order to continue where we left off, instead of starting at the last checkpoint which could be too far back.

My sentiments exactly. Wouldn't really change my opinion about those games, actually. Fallout and the NWN series actually suffered from allowing you to save during combat because this exacerbated the metagaming to the point where you could save after a good critical hit or successful maneuvre, or screw up your quicksave because you hit it immediately before dying. The key thing, though? All those issues are really quite minor. I know the frustration of checkpoint saves because some JRPGs really punish you with them (i.e. some sections in the older Final Fantasies, god bless emulators' save states), but I think they have their place. Realistically/frankly speaking, save systems do implicitly nudge you towards playing in a certain way, there's no ifs about it... edit: I forgot to read Dagon's post above, but his sentiment is exactly what I was addressing here. A game experience is built out of a combination of things. Your desire and what you want to do in a game, and how that game is built and presented to you, aren't often separate things that can be cleaved like that. They work in tandem and influence each other. If we really committed ourselves to a blind 'freeeeeedom for the player' style of game design we'd end up ruining the experience for ourselves because of the sheer level of indulgence. To a degree, playing a game, like watching a film, is about understanding and submitting yourself to how the general architecture the creator has designed. ...If Alpha Protocol's focus is on a dialogue system where you have to make decisions quickly, situations can spiral out of control and there are lots of multiple paths to be taken, I really have no issue with a checkpoint system - I envisage that I would very rarely reload this kind of game, anyway, because the game is built towards, and rewards you, for playing in that way. The combat is probably not the kind that kills you with a single bad move or has extremely long, gruelling sequences, either (I mean, what if you had to fight Kangaxx with a checkpoint system?). There's still merit for arguing save-anywhere in any game, yes, but to call it a deal-breaker for any game or a 'defining feature of RPGS' is a major exaggeration IMHO. Unless the checkpoints were absolutely draconian. I agree that saving after every critical hit is excessive. But can can be easily circumvented by preventing saves during combat (or even when there are enemies nearby, Mass Effect-style). They could also prevent you from saving during a conversation as well. But honestly I almost never reload for saying something wrong. I know that I am playing an RPG and that my choices matter, so I usually take my time to think what the next answer will be during a dialogue.

And I didn't mean to come out as a ****. I really respect you guys at Obsidian, especially after the continued NWN2 support and the masterpiece that was MotB. I even highly enjoyed KOTOR 2 (except the ending). Those were truly great RPGs, and that is why I had high hopes for this game. I know you CAN make a good RPG, but it seems like in this case you are sacrificing a major feature for the sake of accessibility (blame the consoles maybe?).

"Could be" being the keyword. Just because those could be circumvented doesn't mean everybody circumvented them. Hell, I can turn on God mode in most games if I want to, but I choose not to. And those games are some of the best ever created on ANY platform, and the save anywhere helped them achieve that status. Just imagine not being able to save anywhere in Deus Ex, Bloodlines, or even NWN2 for example...