Doros

Are these acts inherently evil? No. Murder can be killing, theft can be reappropriation, betrayal can be a realignment of interests in light of new opportunities, it all depends on how you justify (or rationalize) your actions. The Light Side is just as willing to get its hands dirty as the Dark Side (how many Stormtroopers did Luke Skywalker "murder" when he trespassed on and destroyed the Death Star? Han didn't bat an eye when he "stole" Imperial weapons and uniforms. You want to talk about betrayal, look at the final fight between Vader, Palpatine, and Luke!) and every "fault" the Dark Side has is simply the result of how we percieve their motivations, not the actions themselves. Like I said before, we've been conditioned to view collectivist actions wrapped in the language of "communal welfare" as "good" (another Five Year Plan? Well, it's all in the name of equality and justice, so alright), and self-interested actions prizing individual freedom as "evil" (how dare that corporation try and make a profit from it's services? People don't work so they can make money!), so we automatically look the other way when killing is done in the name of the masses, yet not when killing is done in the name of personal freedom. Lucas thought he'd make the Sith evil, yes, but Lucas is a film director. He's not a political philosopher or an expert on social policy. His vision of good and evil was wrong, plain and simple. He tapped into the same collectivist rhetoric that dominated the Hollywood mindset during the 20th century, fell into the very same traps, took a cue from classic Westerns and adventure movies by playing everything up for melodrama, and it shows. Now you can feel free to sit by passively and take things as they are fed to you (oooo, that guy's wearing BLACK! I bet he's the bad guy!) but don't mistake surface propoganda for the end of the issue, my son. Some Sith may be rotten people, it's true, but the Jedi and their wicked philosophy of forced altruism and obedience are far, far worse. The next time you watch Star Wars, ask yourself this: "Who is John Galt?"

Different Talos, methinks. But we all know that Sithis is the only truth! AE HERMA MORA ALTADOON PADHOME LKHAN AE AI. -edit- And before anyone says anything, you read it right. That's Sithis, not Sith. ah so your not totally clueless, you know some elder scrolls lore. Of course I do! It's just too bad to see that you're as blinded by the Nine Divines as you are by the Light Sid of the Force. Never fear, though... I'm sure the Hand of Sithis will reach out and lead you to the Night Mother's embrace before too long! Or at least to one of those darn Temples of Azura.

Different Talos, methinks. But we all know that Sithis is the only truth! AE HERMA MORA ALTADOON PADHOME LKHAN AE AI. -edit- And before anyone says anything, you read it right. That's Sithis, not Sith.

If by "good" you mean "Dark Sided", then yes, Canderous is good in the LS end as well. Canderous is a fine Mandelorian- he values martial prowess and violence above all else. As he says in the DS ending "You are Revan, and I would follow you anywhere!" It's not abstract systems of ethics he's concerned about, it's simply looking out for his own self-interest by following a military genius. The same goes for HK. You don't honestly think HK is just another namby-pamby goody two shoes, like Luke Skywalker or Jar Jar Binks, do you? No, he follows Revan in the LS ending simply because Revan is his Master, and he knows that his own robotic self-interest lies in sticking by Revan for as long as possible. Jolee's outlook is actually fairly atypical. Most people aren't as radically neutral as that old coot, and given the chance to voice opinions on matters, they will. I mean, look at this thread: has anyone stepped back and said "I don't care, let everyone figure it out for themselves"? No. Jolee was leaning towards the LS, but he only acted when it became clear the entire galaxy was threatened. Any petty crimes and brutal tactics on Revan's part up until that point were met with silence and acceptance... if you and I were walking down the street, and you saw me mug a helpless widow, stealing her last earthly possessions, would you really just stand there doing nothing? No, I don't think you would, and I don't think many people would either. You'd either intervene on behalf of the weak old sow (LS) or help me out in exchange for a cut of the profits (DS). Jolee is an oddity, an abberation, like Switzerland or (to continue with the Hitler-analogy brought up before) Neville Chamberlain.

You clearly have much to learn about the heart of Sith teaching, young Padawan. Murder simply for the sake of murder? If you are strong, you might be able to, but why? That is not the true Way of the Dark Side. Murder is but a means to an end, and that end is Power. Murder for the sheer sake of killing, while certainly fun, does little to advance your own goals, and may do much to hinder them. Murder is a tool, a weapon, to be used or not to be used like any other as the situation demands- the concept of Sith being nothing more than psychotic maniacs, prone to killing for no reason, is a myth fabricated by the Jedi Order. Sociopathic maniacs, maybe, but only the most dull-witted of Dark Side adherents (and thus the weakest and least deserving of their title) would kill "just for the sake of it". One good reason? We've given you plenty. The Dark Side is better. If I wanted to be "evil", I'd argue in favor of the Light Side, insist you be charitable, fawning, and docile, the better to control you and keep you in check. you have 5 posts and you call someone a padawn, sith arrogence must really be getting out of hand this days. And in these 5 posts, I've shown you the Power of the Dark Side. Logic, reason, a cunning reversal of a Godwin gambit, and Ayn Rand references... with but little experience and the strength of the Dark Side, I have bested all comers. A 77 post geezer like yourself could learn a thing or two from my Sith training, dear Padawan. P.S. The Sith aren't "arrogant", they are confident- yet another key difference between the Light and Dark Sides. Where a Jedi would fear vanity and seek to humble himself, a Sith sees merely his potential and lets it be shown. And this is as it should be, for after all, only the followers of the Dark Side have abilities worthy of such confidence.

You clearly have much to learn about the heart of Sith teaching, young Padawan. Murder simply for the sake of murder? If you are strong, you might be able to, but why? That is not the true Way of the Dark Side. Murder is but a means to an end, and that end is Power. Murder for the sheer sake of killing, while certainly fun, does little to advance your own goals, and may do much to hinder them. Murder is a tool, a weapon, to be used or not to be used like any other as the situation demands- the concept of Sith being nothing more than psychotic maniacs, prone to killing for no reason, is a myth fabricated by the Jedi Order. Sociopathic maniacs, maybe, but only the most dull-witted of Dark Side adherents (and thus the weakest and least deserving of their title) would kill "just for the sake of it". One good reason? We've given you plenty. The Dark Side is better. If I wanted to be "evil", I'd argue in favor of the Light Side, insist you be charitable, fawning, and docile, the better to control you and keep you in check.

uhm no .. the sith are totally evil, and care nothing for anyone but them self. saying there noble and visionaries is like saying, Adolf Hitler was a great man... or that Stalin was a noble and fair leader... i don't know what your smoking but, as far as the sith go your way out touch with what a sith is. No, but I'm not surprised you think that way. It's a system of your conditioning, being led by the honeyed lies of the Jedi elite who would have you think that personal ambition is "wrong" and indiviual talent is something to be stifled and kept in check, rather than something to be nurtured and embraced. The Sith are not evil, and while they care "only" for themselves, this is the only true way to achieve freedom. Hitler and Stalin were NOT servants of the Dark Side. They wrapped themselves, not in the language of individual will and personal ambition, but in the language of communal good, of collective action, of "bettering" their "society". Stalin was at the helm of the flagship of Light Side decadence- Soviet Communism, where "everybody would be equal" and "all in society would have their fair share"... at least in theory. Hitler, while he did make a few appeals to the better nature of the individual and survival of the strong, also fell back on the doctrine of the masses- he wasn't there to "achieve power", no no! He was there to "help" the poor, the weak, and the oppressed people of Germany! he was there to "build highways" and "aid the workers", to "stop self-interested corporations from war profiteering" and to "enrich the hearts and minds of all people in Greater Germany". Of course, we know that's a lie. We know Stalin and Hitler were rotten to the core- but most of us don't stop and look at why they were able to do what they did, and how they were able to unleash such evils upon the planet. They, like the Jedi Order, demanded that their underlings make sacrifices in the name of the "common good". They, like the Jedi Order, praised group welfare over individual freedom. They, like the Jedi Order, passed edicts from on high, making sure that all bowed to the authoritarian will of the "Council", rather than (in good Sith fashion) allowing the students to challenge their masters and, in so doing, overcoming the constraints placed upon them by figures of power. Only a servant of the Light Side would be so blind, so naive, so weak, as to allow himself to be bent to the will of a man like Stalin. See the light! Come to the Dark Side! Before it is too late!

Cool. Yeah, it was helpful. As long as I'm not missing anything plot-wise, I should be set, and I'm sure I'll figure out what the deal is with Visas eventually. I'll try the LS editing whenever Mira shows up, too... raging Wookie doesn't sound so bad, but then again I don't want anyone stealing my thunder as a Sith-killing melee machine. I'm a solo player at heart, and I usually keep NPCs around for plot purposes and not for their abilities- if they do get too powerful, I either underequip them or send them back to the Ebon Hawk until they learn to play the Lando to my Han (except for HK, I have loads of respect for him and am more than happy to let him take the spotlight when needed). so unless I can somehow get Hanharr to kill Carth (does anyone else hate that guy?!), I'm staying away from him. P.S. Was the "what did you do to my crew?" speech about Visas Force Stunning everyone? I ask because, while none of my crew were Force Stunned in the brief cutscene leading up to the fight, they were afterwards. Or rather, they had the Force Stun purply effect on them, but they were walking and talking as if nothing was going on... I thought it was weird, and wasn't sure if it had something to do with the attack or not. Maybe a byproduct of triggering two different events in one go?

Dark Side. The Dark Side gets a bad rep, mainly because the SW galaxy is full of altruism-blinded collectivists who don't have the benefit of the Ayn Rand Institute. But rest assured: self interest and inidividual responsibility beat galactic hand-outs and crass pandering to the sneer quote "public good" any day. Don't be fooled by Jedi or Republican agitprop, lies passed on by people with a vested interest in keeping the individual man weak (so as to control the masses with less effort)! Those who have "fallen" to the "Dark Side" are, in reality, the greatest and noblest visionaries the galaxy possesses.

Hey, I just had a small problem, and I was wondering if anyone here could helpme out. I'm an old time veteran of NWN and KoToR 1, but this is the first time I've played KoToR 2, and I'm... confused, to say the least. I'm wondering if maybe I missed something, or my game glitched, or what, because... well, let me start at the beginning. Spoilers abound! But if y'all could keep spoilers to a minimum, I'd appreciate it. I'm playing as a female Sith, pretty solidly Darksided. I just left that ice base (the Fortress of Solitude?) on Telos, and I've started looking for the other Jedi Masters. I went to the Hutt planet (Nar Shadda?) and started poking around, doing quests, etc etc. After a little while, I got this cutscene where some smugglers or mercenaries or whatever come and capture my ship, so I head back to the dock and this fight breaks out. That's meant to happen, right? Well, anyways, I killed all the guys outside of the ship, then I went inside, and got jumped by a whole bunch more. I started killing them and cut my way to the security room, where the leader of the gang gave a little speech and attacked me. I killed him, and as soon as I did, the screen went black... but only for a second. Then something weird happened... rather than fighting the rest of the guys on the ship (there were at least five mercs still standing), or letting me loot the bodies, everyone vanished. Some blind chick jumped out of nowhere, and I had a little discussion about her doing something to "the crew" (although what the heck that means I have no idea... did she kill the remaining mercs for me?). Then she attacked me, I beat her up, and suddenly she joins my party. Now everyone is talking about a Master (I guess it's that mask-wearing dude from the earlier cutscenes with Kreia) and how I shouldn't have spared her and what the heck is going on? One minute I'm fighting a ship full of reptiles, the next minute I've got Kreia lecturing me about, apparently, having mercy on an assassin?! I'm thinking that these two events (smugglers attack my ship, Visas attacks my ship) aren't supposed to be connected, and maybe I missed a cutscene along the way, so can anyone help explain what's going on? Oh, and on other question. While checking the internet for character information, it looks like I can get one of two NPCs on Nar Shadaa, right? That cute redhead and the Wookie who keeps showing up in my cutscenes? And who I get depends on my alignment? Well, is there any way to get by that, and convince a different character to join me? I don't want to say I'm racist against Wookies, but... well, I'm racist against Wookies. I'd rather skip the flea-bitten carpet monster and get the chick, so if there's any way to convince the game to give me Mira over whatshisname, evil-Zaalbar, (editing a flag? Using a savegame editor to give me LSPs at whatever point the game decides who I get?) please let me know. Same goes for that Echani chick from the Fortress of Solitude, is there any way to get her to join? Thanks!