semiticgod

JuliusBorisov over at the Beamdog forums has pointed out an opportunity for PoE2 no-reloaders. See the end of the video:

I've made no progress in my run (I've been doing an unrelated BG run), but as soon as the new thread is created, I think I'll get back to PoE2 and start posting. I don't have anything saved up, but I'm ready to go whenever.

@Ivanfryodorovich: Most of us played BGTutu back in the day rather than the original Baldur's Gate (partly because modding BG1 wasn't really a thing), which meant we were playing BG with the BG2 engine. Thus, we had the option of choosing kits, and spells and items operated as they did in BG2. If I recall correctly, importing a vanilla BG character into BG2 allowed you to change their proficiencies (proficiencies were different in BG2) but not give them a kit. That is, your longsword-wielding fighter could become a katana-wielding fighter, but not a katana-wielding Kensai fighter. BGTutu and EE removed the differences for later players, so it's not an issue anymore. For RP purposes, almost any change in a character build would be justifiable due to the whole reincarnation thing. For the purposes of this challenge, I think the main reason to stick with the same basic class is so that we're facing both PoE and PoE2 with the same character, so the nature and intensity of the difficulty is consistent. Switching to a whole new class would allow the player to choose a more optimal build for each game, so I think we should avoid distinctly different character builds. A specialist kit or a multi-class would be fine, largely since we wouldn't want to ban fighter/thieves and such from the Hall of Heroes. But stats are a different story. Your character can operate pretty similarly even if you make some adjustments to stats, so I think we can afford some leeway. Maybe we could limit the stat difference to 2 or 3 or 4 points away, per stat, from the Watcher's stats in PoE1?

In the BG Hall of Heroes, the run had to be a continuous narrative across BG, SoD (optionally), SoA, and ToB. Failing at any point along the way meant it no longer qualified as a saga run unless the player re-started all the way back at Candlekeep. For example, if you beat BG and SoA, then died in ToB, then re-started at the beginning of ToB, and then beat ToB, it wouldn't count as a saga run; it would just be a successful BG run, a successful SoA run, and an unrelated successful ToB run. Dying in PoE2 would send a character straight to the Honorable Mentions section. To qualify for the PoE Hall of Heroes, the Watcher would have to be the same race, class, background, culture, and preferably stats across both games. Since there are some classes in PoE2 that don't exist in PoE1, I'd suggest that the Watcher in PoE2 must be at least partly the same class as in the previous game. Thus, a cipher could become a specialist cipher, and a fighter could become a fighter/thief. That way we can keep things consistent without forbidding the use of certain class builds in PoE2.

@Ivanfyodorovich: We'd be discussing things on the new thread, which @Alesia_BH will start for us. One of our goals will be to establish a positive and cooperative atmosphere for the new thread to make sure new participants absorb the local culture. We want to make sure the new thread is less about showing off one's skills or competing with other participants, and more about sharing knowledge and helping each other out. That means we'll want to post a lot of stuff very quickly in the new thread to establish a trend.

How about this: we try to complete PoE2 blind without reloading, and if we die somewhere along the way, we continue as a normal run, with reloads, and continue discussing our progress and thoughts on the strategy for a no-reload run. I doubt any of us will make it through PoE2 blind without dying, and I certainly don't think we should try to make our first complete PoE2 run a no-reload run (no need to restart over and over again instead of playing through the game on the first time normally), but some of us might get a respectable distance into the game before we get splattered.

@Alesia_BH: Good point about the Hall. Since we don't yet know how difficult PoE2 is going to be to complete without reloading, creating additional restrictions on PoE1 is premature. If PoE2 is significantly more challenging, then it might make sense to tolerate a lower-intensity PoE1 run, since a full saga run would still be dicey. Also, since we don't yet know all the differences in the game mechanics, we might want to know if there's a way to standardize restrictions across the saga. For instance, if mage/druid/priest spells are per-encounter in PoE2, then a "no per-rest abilities" requirement in PoE1 wouldn't be nearly as big of a restriction in the sequel. I started the sequel but I'm still in the island cave at the start of the game, so I don't have any insights just yet. But I am ready to get started discussing the game in a new thread, and showering praise on other forumites to establish a friendly atmosphere early on. Count me in as the first "yea."

Three characters in a party sounds like a good alternative to a full party without attempting a highly-restrictive solo run. I'm afraid it would do too much to inhibit party diversity, though--there would be a powerful incentive for every party be at least 1/3 priest and to a lesser extent 1/3 wizard. Another way to avoid the over-leveling issue is to do a less completionist run, or even to fight Thaos before tackling White March. This would involve loading an earlier save to continue after Thaos, but I think it would be realistic for a Watcher to beat Thaos and then go on to White March rather than immediately retiring to Caed Nua. Other restrictions and special challenges could bump up the difficulty as well. A poverty run or solo run would be an extreme example, but we could also work with some lesser restrictions: no crafting/enchantments; no store-bought items; no quick slot items; no per-rest abilities (like my 3-paladin, 3-cipher Normal mode run); randomized stats or classes; only one character class allowed for the whole party; or a special gimmick. One run I've considered is having a party of spellcasters, but preventing them from using any offensive spells--wizards would act as fighters, relying on buffs to get them through fights rather than bombing spells or disablers.

About our with-reloads run with a cipher, wizard, two priests, Firebrand-wielding rogue, and dual-wielding barbarian: After the Skaen temple, we tackled the spider den (I don't know the real names of most areas) and got nearly overwhelmed through sheer offensive pressure, suffering a knockout on one of our priests. We failed to corner the party and therefore took a lot of pressure, especially because the enemy came in waves and the spiders weren't clumped together closely enough for us to catch as many of them in area-effect spells. Ectopsychic Echo cleared the field before we suffered more than one knockout. In the past, I've made peace with Korgrak, but since other players mentioned slaying him, I went ahead and opted for the violent resolution. Korgrak knocked half the party prone, but could not stay standing with Frost (our wizard and main character) to cast Slicken. Whisper of Treason charmed several bears and Mental Binding paralyzed Korgrak. Frost finally hit level 7, learning Confusion and Maura's Writhing Tentacles, and we took on the adventurers guarding the wurm's egg, once again following the example of other no-reloaders by opting for bloodshed when nonviolent options were easily available. Turns out that the advice I got was quite sound: the adventurers really aren't that dangerous. A single blast from a blunderbuss wiped out the enemy mage in one hit, and Ectopsychic Echo easily wiped out the remainder. Back in Cliaban Rilag, or whatever that dungeon with the Corrupted Druids is, we dispatched the druids with Slicken and Ectopsychic Echo (their offensive damage spells never caused us a problem, though I don't know why). The Spores were another story. The Sporelings went down to Firebrand, but even with the Prayer Against Bewilderment spell, we were still vulnerable to the Dank Spores' endless Domination attacks, and with an Accuracy of 77, Holy Meditation couldn't cover that vulnerability, either. Worse yet, Divinegon, our cipher and primary offensive asset, gets knocked out by a trap and a single blow afterwards, robbing us of our Ectopsychic Echo. The fight involved a lot of micromanagement, but basically, the strategy boiled down to staying out of range of all but one Dank Spore, allowing us to strike from afar using Chill Fog and Iconic Projection while only exposing us to a single Dank Spore's Domination effects. Summoning tentacles also allowed us to divert some attacks away from the party, with the added advantage being that the tentacles, being immobile, could not attack us when they were under enemy control. Even then, progress was so slow without our cipher (I wasn't willing to burn a Scroll of Revival to get Divinegon back) that we suffered lots of damage in the process. Doing Pallegina's quest got our other party members up to level 7, granting Escape to our rogue to make Ectopsychic Echo easier to work with, Silent Scream to our cipher for high-impact Raw damage as well as Going Between (I never use defensive cipher options, but that seemed like a good one), and level 4 spells for our priests. Our barbarian took Thick-skinned for the extra damage reduction. Back at Cliaban Rilag, we dispatched the Spirits with Silent Scream and summons to soak up paralysis attacks and blasted the Animats with Holy Radiance from our two priests. Rius, our rogue, got her highest-damage hit yet with Finishing Blow and Firebrand, at 151 damage. Finally I returned to Caed Nua to get Gyrd Haewanes Stenes, which I bound to our wizard, Frost, since we had no druids and I wanted shields and melee weapons for our priests. We ran into a couple Assassin encounters in Defiance Bay, but they have pretty lousy defenses and fell to Shining Beacon (a great party-friendly damage option) and Ectopsychic Echo. We nabbed the Shod-in-Faith boots from the Crucible Keep Armory so our barbarian would trigger a Consecrated Ground early in combat. Since I've only sided with the Doemonrels before, I decide to try out the Crucible Keep guys. The Winds of Steel quest goes smoothly due to our wide range of offensive options (I don't think the quest is balanced for level 7+ characters) and having both Ectopsychic Echo and two priests to cast Holy Radiance let us deal with the Forge Knights. The ogres trounce us, as I discussed before, and we try again. This time, we summon some tentacles to hold off the ogres coming in from the north, allowing us to fire off a bunch of area-effect options. Most of the damage apparently came from Iconic Projections--at level 7, and with two priests, we can spam Iconic Projections for many rounds. We ran into trouble with Spirits at Cliaban Rilag due to area-effect paralysis attacks. A Confusion spell bought us time to use Scrolls of Defense and Moonwell and set up our other defenses, though the Cean Gwla resisted the confusion effect and still managed to use its paralyzing wail. We actually suffered two wail attacks, which suggests that either the Cean Gwlas can spam the attack sometimes, or that another Cean Gwla could apply a second wail despite being confused. When we recovered, the enemy was no longer confused, and so we started taking damage while buffing the party with scrolls and spells. Thanks to concentrated work from our rogue, who had begun dual-wielding with the War Club of the Mataru, we managed to bring down the first Cean Gwla via sneak attacks (the Cean Gwla was in the middle of the party and therefore easily flanked) and Finishing Blow. Frost landed another Confusion spell, which bought us enough time to focus fire on individual enemies. Still, there were lots of enemies and we nearly suffered a knockout to our cipher before we saved her with Withdraw. The next batch of Spirits was easier, mostly because we landed Slicken early to knock the Cean Gwlas prone. Without the threat of paralyzing wails, we were able to act freely and make progress unimpeded. Outside, we smashed some Leaden Key guys with Ectopsychic Echo and got in a long, protracted battles with some slimes and spores. Most of the trouble could have been avoided if we had simply retreated until we were out of range of the spores, killed the puddings, and then approached the spores one by one, striking exclusively via ranged attacks. As long as spores are immobile, there's no reason not to tackle each one (or two, if they're clumped together in a certain way) separately, at range--maybe even across two different encounters.

About the PoE2 thread: If we're going to do what we discussed before--have a bunch of runners all start posting in a new PoE2 thread simultaneously so we can establish a friendly atmosphere right off the bat--I will be ready to do soon it after January 2, when I have a test.

I've been thinking about the prospects of creating custom characters and using re-training for situational purposes, and Searing Falls seems like an ideal place to bring in a disposable druid or two just to lock down all the Drakes with Hold Beast. If Cail's Will defense is 66, then a level 6 Hearth Orlan druid with maxed-out Perception and Intellect could very, very easily paralyze him for many seconds. With the right resting bonus and some cookies and casserole, you'd have an Accuracy of 67 with Hold Beast, you'd have 4 castings total, and the duration would be 9.52 seconds if you also wore the +2 Intellect hood. With Blessing, Zealous Focus from Pallegina, and Inspiring Radiance, your Accuracy could be 93, a guaranteed lock on Cail for well over 20 seconds even with terrible luck. Create two such druids and you wouldn't even need the extra buffs. I realize this is very far away from roleplaying, but creating new characters and re-training them is very cheap in the scheme of things, and it's always possible to free up room by killing a character manually, if you create too many custom ones. Custom characters and re-training could have dramatic impacts on key bottleneck encounters and bosses. Using druids to tackle dragons is probably the best example, but I can also see some uses for other situational custom characters, like Coastal Aumaua characters or re-training with the anti-Vessel talent to deal with Thaos' statues, extra priests to nuke groups of Vessels, extra paladins to spam Liberating Exhortation, or extra ciphers when blitzkrieg strategies are more effective than defensive tactics. What do you guys think?

My current with-reloads run will involve tackling the Sky Dragon, White March, and all of Od Nua, as well as whatever optional side quests I know of, like the Drakes at Searing Falls. I don't plan on hunting down every tiny quest (that would require research on my part), but I'll be going after all the big fights I can find. This is a research/experimentation run. I've also considered trying my hand at another no-reload poverty run, with another priest or wizard replacing one or both of our druids. I have a better handle on wizards and priests, and I think I'll just craft a party of Moon Godlikes for Silver Tide stacking to ameliorate the low Damage Reduction problem.

I used to pass on Slicken because of its short duration (it seemed like a weaker version of BG's Grease spell), but so many enemies have poor Reflex saves that the spell can be chain-cast to reliably lock down groups of enemies for several rounds, allowing the player to establish a strong foothold early on. The really weird thing is that Slicken works on so many different enemies, even certain floating enemies like most Spirits and legless critters like Spores. @Alesia_BH: Sounds like White March and level 11+ abilities offer a lot of new options on expanding damage output. On a related note: does the late-game cipher ability Mindweb really grant the whole party access to the strongest Defense of each party member? Because it sounds like you could grant an entire party +75 Deflection from a single mage's Arcane Veil, and even the other defenses would gain huge bonuses.

@Alesia_BH: Since I neglected to mention it earlier, I'd love to hear more about your cipher. Also, how do you get custom portraits in PoE?

Right-o. Our Watcher this time is Frost, another Hearth Orlan with a re-used portrait and name. This is the first time I didn't use the blonde orlan portrait for my Watcher. As before, I've maxed out Perception, which I do for any character that's not a tank. Partly this is because of the offensive bonuses, but mostly I do this for the reliability. I think this is especially important for spellcasters, who only get so many chances to make an impact with offensive spells. If you can only spare a single Confusion spell, you want to minimize the chance that it will fail outright. The money from selling Gaun's Pledge allowed us to purchase our five custom party members before tackling any important challenges, obviating the need for vanilla NPCs. Here's our party: We've got two tanky priests so we can set up defenses early, another ranged cipher, our Watcher mage, a barbarian with some balanced stats, and a rogue to strike from the sides. I originally picked a monk because I thought monks and ciphers had special synergy: a low-Deflection monk would make a great target for a cipher's opening attack, granting multiple Wounds to the monks and lots of Focus to the cipher, allowing the monk to deal extra damage from a safe distance with staffs and pikes while the cipher got a reliable chunk of Focus even in fights against enemies with high Deflection. When I discovered that having the cipher attack the monk gave us lots of Wounds but zero Focus, I replaced the monk with a rogue. I don't see much value in a monk unless it's a Moon Godlike or a party with consistent healing effects active, because it doesn't have many utility or defensive options and you have to lose 8 or 10 Endurance to use Torment's Reach. Whisper of Treason neutralizes a LOT of early game threats (we actually took down the bears early thanks to Whisper of Treason), and Frost was able to use Concelhaut's staff to deal damage. Our rogue, Rius, also used Fan of Flames scrolls for bigger fights, like the Xaurip Skirmishers by the beach and the Phantoms at Caed Nua, and Frost's Arcane Veil let her tank the latter. Fan of Flames scrolls appear to be ideal for ending the Phantom fights quickly and safely. With two priests, we didn't have much trouble with Maerwald, since we could cast lots of healing spells to counter the area-effect damage. We didn't do much else in Od Nua, but we did use Whisper of Treason and Mental Binding from our cipher to neutralize the queen spider. I got the Forgemaster Gloves, but instead of giving them to our barbarian, I gave them to our rogue, Rius. I realize that barbarians can get more damage overall due to Carnage, but I figured that Firebrand would actually be more useful overall. The critical factors in a fight, from what I can tell, aren't hordes of normal enemies, but single bosses and other tough targets. Therefore, wouldn't it be more important to have a rogue that can deal 150% damage to a single important enemy, than a barbarian that can deal 100% normal damage to that enemy and 66% damage to multiple, lower-value targets? I decided to test it out, and found that the rogue can deal so much damage to make damage reduction practically meaningless at most values. Granted, barbarians get another +20% damage from One Stands Alone and another +12-18% from the Might bonuses of rage, but rogues also get some extra high-damage options like Finishing Blow, and their sneak attacks last longer than rage even without a cipher to use Phantom Foes to Flank enemies. Instead, our barbarian dual-wielded weapons (we finally got the March Steel Dagger by roughhousing the little kid), relying on our priests' healing to keep her safe. With two priests, we had strong enough defenses to stand up to decent pressure, and for a very long time, Ectopsychic Echo smashed everything in front of us, including Raedric. Raedric is a very profitable target. It looks like his castle nets you nearly 12,000 copper pieces in loose equipment. We had trouble with the Skaen temple cultists, though. Those Mind Breakers and rogues are very difficult to handle; the firearms come out fast and the disablers really screw with the party's functioning, while the rogues apply consistent pressure. I don't know of a solid way to neutralize the key threats besides Slicken; other options don't always reach everyone, and attacking Will defenses provokes a stunning backlash from the enemy Mind Breakers, which can get really inconvenient. The rogues even use Finishing Blow, which just makes it even easier to suffer rapid knockouts. I think the answer might just be to spam Slicken (honestly, it might even be worth it just to create a new custom mage so you cast it more often) and be generous with resting so you can always keep the enemy on their backs.