Beyond The Sea

Separating prisons by sex is standard. That is my point.

Too many women in armies are inauthentic, not very believable, well, unrealistic. Okay. A prison filled with only men clashes with authenticity, is also unrealistic. Very interesting what you find authentic and believable, what you believe.

This is interesting. Trying to come up with improvements or alternatives is much harder than complaining. Stardew Valley has you giving gifts. Fallout 4 has you doing quests. Whatever the game, you have to put at least some effort in. Work for it, get reward. Basic game principle. Is there any game that does it differently? Come to think of it there are choose your own adventures/interactive fiction from Choice of Games. They usually have romance in some form. Some are more generic than others. Two I remember being above average. In particular Affairs of the Court: Choice of Romance did some interesting things. You go to court and get approached by men or women or both. You are courted. You have to navigate your admirer's advances. As the name suggests, it presents choices. An affair with the married king, the security of a wealthy, older gentleman or a handsome and passionate but impoverished man. You get some pros and cons. Your family tries to persuade you to get influence and chose the king or to shore up the family estate with some money. At the very least it's a change from the usual romances in interactive media.

A guy raged that a male romance option made the first move on him in Dragon Age 2. He wrote that games are for straight guys and he shouldn't have to deal with this gay stuff. He thought he was entitled that all games be made to suit him, because they always had been. Entitlement comes from privilege. Minorities asking for a piece of the cake is not entitlement, it's a call not even for equality, but to no longer be ignored, to acknowledge that we exist, and to be treated with some respect. Relationships are a reached strech goal. Sawyer has confirmed there will be romantic relationships. Unless they are cut at some point. For now, they are coming. Hence all the talk and speculation. If this thread bothers you, don't read it. Even if you don't want homosexuals in games, Obsidian already had gay and lesbians characters and even companions years ago. White March has a lesbian companion. Most importantly, you will not stop the discussion from happening. You will not stop games from becoming ever so slowly more inclusive and diverse.

If you talk about video game romance, Bioware will come up automatically. It's the only developer to consistently have romance in big mainstream titles. A big number of overall game romance is found in Bioware games. Mind you this isn't a generic romance discussion thread. This topic is about player-sexual i.e. same-sex romance in particular. And in terms in same-sex romance there is very little outside of Bioware games. Mass Effect romances consist of just talking to your chosen option, flirting and having sex before the big finale. Dragon Age will additionally throw in gifts, reputation, friendship/rivalry. I have yet to play a romance that doesn't utilize something similar. Occasionally there is some dramatic tension like when your lover Anders blows up the Chantry and some of your companions demand you execute him or when Zevran will betray you if he doesn't like you enough. But generally it's rather tranquil. These romances are not for "fapping." They fulfil an emotional fantasy of sometimes an ideal relationship and true love. For gay and lesbian players this is rare in itself and addtionally it's a fantasy of acceptance and respect, which can be very powerful if you live in a place or have a family that doesn't accept you.

It's good to question if there will be same-sex romances. Maybe there won't be. It's possible. If you offer only heterosexual romantic and sexual content and nothing for gay and lesbian players, then you are very clearly telling gay and lesbian players your game isn't for them, you don't want their money, you don't care what they want. Many games have done that and still do. But why do it when you can simply write romances to be gender-neutral like most of the dialog in PoE already is anyway? I wanted to bring up that Obsidian has been okay with gay characters. Doesn't mean there will be gay and lesbian romances. Just that the company doesn't have a history of homophobia as far as I know. Naturally writing itself can be very subjective. Cheesy, happy end, the aspect of forbidden love or a fantasy escape world free of real life homophobia. Yes, it's always repeated, good fiction needs conflict. Is game romance fiction or is it a fantasy, wish fulfilment? PoE is a fantasy of having adventures in a late middle age/early modern inspired world with magic, a fantasy of being a great warrior or a mighty wizard, becoming stronger and stronger, defeating powerful enemies. Look at Skyrim. The stories are abysmal but the fantasy is fine. That doesn't mean fiction in games is obsolete. I'm sure good writing can make for much better romance. But I'm not entirely convinced a great story is necessary for a perfectly acceptable and decent romance as long as the romance character is appealing in some way, be it in personality, looks or something else. Oh, thank you for some recommendations. I was just looking for a read.

I thought Dorian was written well, not just quality. He gets roughly the same quantity as other options. All things being relatively equal I prefer gay romance options over bisexual romance options. ME does gay romance with less quality and less quantity compared to straight options, then I'm suddenly not such a big fan of this approach. I'm not sure why we're assuming Deadfire is a lock for having same-sex romances of some sort. Personally the approach of having enough variety to cover a diversity quota only goes so far, as while it's better to have it than not to it doesn't by itself guarantee the romance will be interesting, engaging or at all worth investing time to implement. To me, honestly, the question falls to whether they have an interesting idea or dynamic driving a relationship - if they don't, and want to write in a same-sex relationship just because "there needs to be one", I'd say not to bother. What difference is there between writing a straight romance and a non-straight romance? Either way, you decide that yes, this game is going to have romantic/sexual plots of some sort. Once you've decided that, what's the reason for not including non-straight plots? They don't need any more of a reason to be there than heterosexual ones, and that reason has already been satisfied. Depends on the way the setting responds to homosexuality and so on. If it's taboo or has a specific value or connotation attached to it (Greek love and so on for example), these elements can factor in as conflicts that make a romantic subplot more interesting and meaningful in the overall context of the setting and story. If there is no difference, then the romance requires to be *interesting* the way any other romance would be. Just having one to pander to the playerbase doesn't make for good or compelling writing, or for a meaningful experience. I don't necessarily think the main issue with the quota filling is how compelling or meaningful the writing is. The gay romances in Mass Effect are bad for various reasons. They didn't exists when straight and lesbian romances did in ME1 and 2, and Bioware had gay romances in other games before ME (Jade Empire) and developed at the same time as ME (Dragon Age.) When ME finally had gay romance, they were worse than straight options in every single way, fewer options, no unique face and body models, barely any animations compared to fully animated kissing and sex scenes, dialog was way shorter and actual straight pandering within gay romances. Steve Cortez would literally ask you over and over if you really want to be gay, because some homophobe complained about accidentally having a relationship with a bisexual male option in DA2 despite the giant pink heart icon that clearly indicates flirt and romance options. Then I thought maybe it would get better for Andromeda, improve like DA did. But Andromeda was worse. Not even a bisexual companion like Kaidan this time. Another small crew member part and a fling limited to some planet storyline. Models for Deadfire companions will presumably all be a bit unique. But they are so small in the world. It's not like you constantly have close-ups in dialog or cutscenes. I assume there won't be any romance animations at all. Even if there were more things animated, the height difference of races alone is a nightmare. I guess Deadfire won't have those issues at least. Romance writing might be not great, but being companions should hopefully provide a good amount of content and exposure, quests, banter, comments, conversations. The watcher is a blank slate. Sawyer has said again and again he's interested in player choice. In the Salty Mast you can sleep with prostitues of the same sex. No gender locks. Most of the game's dialog is already kept gender-neutral. Why stop at romance? There are Maneha and Arcade. Obsidian is no stranger to gay and lesbian companions either.

According to the Dragon Age Lead Writer DA2 ended up with player-sexual romances, because the dev team didn't want to repeat DAO, where players pursuing same-sex romances only had 1 romance option. Since Jade Empire Bioware had begun offering 2 romance option to straight male player characters. DAO did the same for straight female player characters and the DA2 team wanted to expand it to same-sex romances. The most efficient way was to have player-sexual or bisexual options 2 male and 2 female, not only in terms of money, as we know the game's time in production was rather short. After DA2 Bioware has losely followed the minimum of 2/2/2. Male and female each 1 straight, 1 bi, 1 same-sex. The developers say sexual identities make for better stories over player-sexual characters. I see the point. You can't tell Dorian's story with a straight or bisexual character. I don't think there has ever been a specifically straight, bisexual or lesbian story. There is nothing specifically gay about Steve Cortez story either. Really what having sexual identities boils down to, according to devs when they speak at GaymerX at least, as I understand, is to have gay and lesbian characters, to have representation, to properly acknowledge the existence of gay and lesbian players, instead of handing them a gender-neutral, bisexual or player-sexual romance. Similarly Stardew Valley had all bachelors and bachelorettes available regardless of gender. It gives the most amount of options for everyone. It's most efficient with the time and effort put into content. It also means there is no gay character, except for the player character maybe. There is no real acknowledgement of gender in the romances. So I am most curious what Deadfire will do. Will there be just 1 bisexual option each? Will there be different options? There are people who say Fallout: New Vegas had planned romances at some point. Aracade is gay, Boone is straight, Veronica is lesbian, not sure about Cass. Presumably that would have been one each. That was actually something that disappointed me in PoE, going from so many gay characters in NV down to basically nothing in PoE.

ME only had gay and lesbian romances for non-teammates. The primary romance option for straight male players, the one you'll see in all the ads, is always a companion. These romance NPCs really do have no purpose beyond being romance options. They have no relevance to the plot and they are meant to be that way, to be completely avoidable. I mean ME3 had James Vega. The only new companion. He could have been the gay romance. But instead Bioware turned Kaidan from straight to bisexual and specifically created an entirely new non-companion NPC just to be a gay lover. And bisexual Kaidan is equally easy to miss. He can die on Virmire in ME1. If you start a new game in ME3, you have to know that you have to pick him as Virmire Survivor. If you click Quick Start or the options of "I don't know which" then the VS of the opposite sex to Shepard will be the survivor. And you can kill him during the Citadel mission. It's actually not that dissimilar to Sky in Jade Empire. Shut down the female companions advances. Be in the right chapter. Have the main quest progressed far enough. Next chapter it's already too late. It's so easy to miss. You have to know what you're looking for. Bioware has clear patterns for ME. You have the leading woman and main love interest, always attractive, always white. You have the primary male romance option, who cannot be better than the male player character and threaten his status as the big hero so they end up pretty bland. This is also a prime spot to have a person of color. So this characters gets even blander, so as not run the risk of being offensive. Any player who doesn't want anything to do with the homosexuals can avoid them and won't be limited in chosing companions. And because these gay and lesbian characters are only create for a minority, they don't get much effort put into them. Their romances are much shorter. This is amplyfied even more since companions get quest lines, loyalty missions, party banter, comments on missions. Most of the time this isn't related to the romance but it builds up the character, and if you are in a relationship all these conversations contribute to the relationship. straight male options ME1: Ashley, Liara (+Asari Consort sex) ME2: Miranda, Jack, Tali (+Kelly Chambers fling, Samara flirt, Morinth flirt and game over sex, Liara in Shadowbroker DLC) ME3: Ashley, Liara, continued Tali (+Diana Allers sex, continued Miranda, continued Jack) MEA: Cora, Peebee, Vetra (+Avela Kjar, Keri T'Vessa) gay male options ME1: none ME2: none ME3: Kaidan (+Steve Cortez) MEA: (Gil Brodie, Reyes Vidal) To be honest, I have no idea why ME does gay romance at all. They obviously don't think it's worth anywhere near the same effort as any of the other orientations. So I'd rather Bioware were honest about that and stopped forcing in some content made out of obligation without any care or passion.

Remove the popular obvious choices. Roll a dice for the remaining options. Bar the player from taking any part. If you take out Pallegina there are only 2 other female characters left. I do find it a bit strange when characters you spend the length of a whole game with suddenly can be romanced in the next game. So would you not offer at least a choice between 2 characters to romance like other games with romance tend to do these days?

If you were Sawyer and you had to decide which companions can be romanced, how would you decide?

There probably won't be anything animated. It's writing and maybe some voice acting. Compared to the rest of the game romance is usually a very small and optional part of a game. It makes some people happy. Why is that a problem? It's not new either. Baldur's Gate had romance. In Planescape Torment you meet your ex-girlfriend quite early on. Romance is not a new SJW Bioware invention but I'm afraid that's basically what much of this dislike of romance really amounts to. Some people don't want gay characters in their games. Some people want games to be tailored to be towards straight while men only. They want this to be their thing, not too dissilmiar to sport fans except for geeks. A place for men to be real men among real men, away from women and minorities that make them uncomfortable.

If you debate what confirmed means, you might as well debate what defines a video game romance. If you want to secure an exactitude of words, relationships of a romantic nature have been confirmed to be part of the relationship system by Sawyer.

Companion relationships are already a reached strech goal. Romances were confirmed by Josh Sawyer.

Iselmyr compliments Pallegina on her fetching feathers. Aloth explains it was Iselmyr. Pallegina says she's not interested in Iselmyr. Hiravias asks about one time Aloth wanted a ride on the Staelgar. Aloth sounds somewhat distressed and says it was Iselmyr.

I don't think imports will be particularly meaningful when it comes to story. Just look at Bioware. Have you chosen Anderson as human councilor? Doesn't matter, it's Udina now. Killed the Rachni Queen? Have another one. Wrex is dead? Replaced by his brother. Alistair is king? Have a 20 second cameo. Killed Lelianna? Back from the dead. I think we all know a truely branching narrative is too expensive to make.

I'm not entirely sure what two-spirited means. How should Aloth be refered to? Two-souled? Possessed? Split personality? It's not just that he is sometimes controlled by Iselmyr. He's also almost cowardly. Iselmyr is much more assertive. I appreciate that he's not co cky (word filter?) like the other male companions. However if he turns out to be bisexual or gay it automatically makes the leap to the conclusion that this is the reason he's not co cky and why he's possessed by a female persona sometimes. (Just repeating myself now to save a trip to the last page.) I like Orlans. I would probably pick Serafen I he was a romance option. But Orlans are small and covered with fur. I assume the majority of people would prefer Edér. His looks are more conventionally attractive and his personality isn't too bad. I think it's weird how in Mass Effect 3 Kaidan is interested in BroShep when he wasn't in Mass Effect 1. There's no explaination. No coming out. Nothing. I know Edér wasn't a romance option. Still I don't remember any references that he might be bi or gay. So did Fenstermaker think of him as straight? Would Edér have to be turned and seduce by a male character?

I like them. I would probably pick Serafen I he was a romance option. But Orlans are small and covered with fur. I assume the majority of people would prefer Edér. His looks are more conventionally attractive and his personality isn't too bad.

I dug this thread up to indulge in pointless speculation and uneducated guessing. Edér talks about sex with women to Hiravias. Aloth being two-spirited, sometimes being a woman is perhaps not most comfortable for everyone. Is he written by Carrie Patel again? I think she wrote lesbian Maneha too. As far as I recall neither of them have hinted at same-sex attraction. So would this be considered a retcon? Serafen as Orlan might venture into anthro or furry territory. Similarly Tekēhu may look quite outlandish. Humans and elves seem like a safer choice, but then Garrus, Thane and Jaal appear to be quite popular.

Is gravedigging frowned upon? Just need a topic to discuss romance. Josh Sawyer wrote on tumblr, "Some of those will be romantic in nature, but certainly not all of them." So there are limitations of some kind or another. 4 males (Edér, Aloth, Serafen and Tekēhu) and 3 females (Pallegina, Maia Rua and Xoti) with Ydwin being another female if the 5 million strech goal is hit. Edér has referenced sex with a woman in banter with Hiravias at least. Hiravias asked Aloth about a requested ride on his Spiritform. Panicked Aloth said Iselmyr requested it. Because of Iselmyr, being more or less two-spirited, and the cowardly elf personality, I'd honestly prefer Aloth was not a same-sex option. Since he was (and therefore might again be) written by Carrie Patel just like our blue lesbian Maneha, I guess he'd be a prime candidate. As attractive as Edér is, I think both he and Aloth might possibly wander into retcon terrority seeing how neither of them really indicated any same-sex attraction in the first game. Sadly not much data on romances in games has been published. Anecdotal evidence and online surveys of Bioware fans as well Bioware's prioritization of content tells us human looking options are generally speaking the most popular. Certainly leading female companions like Morrigan or Miranda are the most popular for straight male characters. I'm not sure how much their skimpy outfits, personalities and alternative options play into this. Aliens are more popular for straight female characters. I don't think there has even been an unattractive female love interest at all. Still humans or almost humans are probably considered safest. Would Serafen and Tekēhu perhaps too much anthro or furry?