[Cipher class general feedback discussion]

I dont like reduced accuracy for specific spells.

Already perception is critical abillity.

Even more, i would welcome passives to increase accuracy with spells, to give some alternatives to max percepcion (Empty Soul).

For Ringleader: longer cast time 6s + shorter duration 12s is worth trying.

 

But give ciphers something in return, other than nerfs, nerfs, nerfs.

[Wizard buff casting AI a little confused...]

I'm trying to make it so when i enter combat i cast Llengrads displaced imaged > Mirrored Images > wizards double > spirit shield...  now the problem i've been having is that it does cast those in order... but uses all of my spell slots so it cast some of them 2x in a row.  Anyone have any clue what i need to do to get it to buff myself correctly?

Make them several conditions with "Always" on top of your list. And set timer for 300sec each.

Also in ai list manager pick "by lst order" not random.

[Cipher class general feedback discussion]

Nerfing few good cipher powers will encourage MC even more, we spend few points into cipher anyway.

Or increase ilussion wizards as alternative. Why use single target terrified at tier IX when we can have it on V.

 

Buffing low use powers is more long term solution.

At least it will give legit choice and opportunity to build, not just pick whatever doesnt sucks.

 

There is an issue with low tier damage powers. If it cost 10focus it cant be end game ready.

Solution to that is more utility low tier powers or passives, could be neutral one. Use low tier power for leveling, and then...

add high level copy improved version with better dmg, range and secondary effects but for higher cost.

LIke Soul Shock -> Soul Storm, with double area, double dmg and small stun.

At least there will be more than one damage spell at levels 13+

 

Charms: could be longer cast time, charms are powerful, at least similar to summons, and 6s cast time for aoe charm is not bad deal. Better than random nerf. They could also gradually lower base duration for aoe charm (single target are less issue). A lot of effort put into nerfing every paralyze, stun or even immobilize. But charms rule untouched.

 

Some buffs which could be considered:

Antipatetic Beam , beam+target, longer duration.

Tenecious Grasp, 30sec duration for single target

Eyestrike, lower cast time, it is small aoe, no dmg only blind. Could be faster to cast than meteor shower.

Mental binding, 20s immobilize, 2.5m range

Sacred Horrors, 30s duration

Soul Ignition, burns also in 1.5m radius against target, since soul is leaking

Pain LInk, longer duration

Fractured Violition 30s duration

Wild leach 30s duration, and tier 3 inspiration

Mind Lance, double damage for first target, keep for behind

Silent Scream, double damage

Mind Plague 30s duration + shaken, it is just a debuff, nobody will die

Ancesor Honor, restore class resources like spending empowerment, single ally

Repeaing Blades, higher dmg and or attack speed, cleave

Haunting Chains, Terrified, Hobbed, Sickened 20s aoe 2.5m

Screaming Souls, mortals are distracted and get small damage, vessels are dealt double damage, and could be destroyed or paralyzed (this power is very situacional)

 

Generally Deadfire is slower, so 12 sec for buff is like 3 attacks, not really an effect. Also death is best cc and debuff.

Generally CIpher powers are very low damage, but there are few which are not.

[Cipher class general feedback discussion]

Ciphers are much more than legacy class, since archetype "fighter with occasional powers" is the good one. Also Psions are not exacly standard fantasy, so are fresh. Ciphers have good lore connection to the whole soul thing which runs Eora.

Mechanic "hit things to get resources to use powers" is the good one, very convinient.

 

There is strong competicion among powers which is worth levelpoint, casting time, and focus.

Ciphers are similar to chanters, however chanters have more versalite effects i suppose. Summoning, healing cc or damage are more different.

It is similar that both chanter and cipher low level dmg are practically meh, since you might as well cast high level.

Chanters have interesing gimmick of upgrading low level powers to something bigger.

If i could take Soul Shock and upgrade it for larger area, MOAR damage, and stun. And this new spell would cost 50 focus, that would be alternative for Aplified Wave.

However if you spend 2 level points on single power the effect need to be very very good. And the upgrade need to be from 10 focus to 50 focus.

Not everything need to be "balanced" around hipster druid spell which nobody uses.

 

Making Beguiler great again is easy if they tried to.

Give 20% bonus to duration, since deception loves duration.

Buff all trashcan deception powers to golden garbage status. So it will be more than just ringleader.

Add small dmg bonus and big focus generation if you qualify for sneak attack. So this whole deception could be very profitable. Just dont out sneak attack rogues, that would be overkill.

MC Rogues gain like 60% sneak attack, so getting bonus 15% from Beguiler is not big deal.

Rogues are much more than sneak attack maschines. Devastating Blows, some crit passives, escapes are all fine addition. Also for Rogue/Beguiler being able to trigger sneak attack with resource outside cipher, that is a good one.

 

At level 8 and 9 there could be some extra passives like:

Gain more starting/max focus like +50 per passive

Get +100% focus from strikes

All your Shred powers add more dmg, but cost more.

 

MC with ciphers will always be tempting, since such is class mechanic. But there could be good reasons to stay pure.

 

The greatest challenge is to buff individual powers. All this tuff like Mental binding which could be good if it had duration and reach.

[Companion Reputation / Party Composition]

Companions sometimes start with dislike and then get along.

At least Pallegina and Teheku could find some balance.

 

Also companions dislikes mean very little. Sometimes Pallegina and Xoti burst in religion/agnostism burst, but we can always can tell that we need to find the God literally.

 

Eder, Xoti, Serafen, Aloth/Teheku will be nice and pleasant.

[Cipher class general feedback discussion]

So it seems that Cipher class is like super strong, and needs to be nerfed. But for me this class is just ok. So it is interesting to discuss how powerful the class is.

It does not spawn many forum builds, but is common pick(telemetry), epecially rogue/cipher multiclass. It is setting specific class, and such are often popular, as something new for gamers.

Judging by some patch changes devs may estimate too much from telemetric data or tweets.

 

General class mechanic encourages focusing on few powers, since our focus could be either spend on high tier power or low level. And it is better to pick the best power. Which is different from Wizard style, where in longer combat we may need to use low level spells. Ciphers need to choose, your low level power or high level. This results in spamming 3-4 powers over and over.

 

Multiclassing is generally good with martial classes. More dps from other class->more focus-> more casting power. Even better if we have burst dmg, like FoD or Backstabs., Not much could be done to change that, other than giving cipher tier 8 passive which greatly increases focus gain.

 

Ciphers could be charming. Charming, domination scales with difficulty very well. Use OP monsters against themselves.

 

Ascendant, could result in powerfull plays with time parasite and spamming high level powers. However reaching ascession without MC takes a while. And if you already have 300 focus 0 cost powers are not that impressive.  On the bright side, suffering -1PL is not that bad. This subclass could be better with MC, even if it suggests dedicated Cipher.

 

SoulBlade, great for MC, since you could really ignore powers, and just take some cipher passives, and focus on other class. Single class 200 raw dmg is generally good. Unfortunetly the more you use anihilation the less you use powers. So there are some real tradeoffs.(note Sould Anihilation could be nerfed in 1.1, however subclass drawback is not severe).

 

Beguiler, a lot of effort for what? Range is not that important, not as important as duration or area. Payback is nice, but it applies to very limited number of powers. With ring leader being the major one. Single target deception are sometimes good, but payback on single target is low. It is fun to earn focus on Eyestrike, but it is not expensive power to begin with. Other deception powers are  not worth casting time. There is not so many deception powers, and soft CC into infinity does not win encounter.  So small gain for sever drawbacks, since being cut off whip dmg and focus gain puts us in dead end. Rogue multiclass saves us, since we want to sneak attack anyway.

 

How to buff beguiler:

+20% Duration, since duration is important part of deception.

Gain sneak attack dmg and bonus focus gain from sneak attack (scales with power level). So it will be a lot of effort but some results

Buff many of deception powers, so it will be something more than Ring Leader

 

***

Passives, are generally as good as could be. With some being great (whip and penetration) and others being just ok.

No access to elemental penetration bundle, even if ciphers deal elemental dmg. (no frost)

But it is good to have some passives, or at least more than Priests.

***

Abillities.

 

Generally with active abillities, there is a thing that some are ok, or as good as casters cast. But there is pleanty of total garbage. Which will never be used since it is either garbage or something useful. It really suprised me how many of powers are in trashcan.

There is no big nukes. Like AOE deal 120 to enemies.

Unfortunetly cipher debuffs are not that worthy.

Powers heavili compete for focus, soul shock would be ok wizard spell, but we can spend our focus on Amplified Wave. We have to choose.

Apparently ciphers have very few end game dmg spells. Leaving ciphers with A Wave, not because it is so great, you just dont have other options.

There is factor of casting time, Eyestrike is nice, but only debuff, but it has very long cast time. And with that 4.5 casting time, you migh cast+recover something else.

 

 

Mind Wave C - longcast, weird shape, low dmg. Raw is nice.

Whispear of Treason A - cheap, scales well with difficulty, works as charm

valorious Echos C - quickcast, cheap, some duration, could be used to overwrite affiliations. Cant be self buffed. AI setup does not cooperate with specific party member.

Antipatic Field D - dmg is almost good, but catching someone in fire could be hard or luck based.

Soul Shock C - cheap, good range, ok dmg, easy to use. Main problem is that it is outshinned by higher level powers.

Teneous Grasp D - fast, could enable sneak attack, but single target, short duration. There should be better ways to spend levelpoints

Eyestrike C - ok blind, cheap, multitarget, but longcast. Also there is many spells with Blind + dmg so this one is less impressive. Very long casting time, for power which is just blind and nothing more. Very small circle.

 

PhantomFoes A/D - For beguilers it is something, since nobody is immune to flanked, so it is good, quick enabler, big aoe. Opens sneak attacks for /Rogue MC.

MindBlades B - Quick, ok dmg, ok penetration, could rebounce in 2 targets. Easy to use

Recall Agony B - this could be very good against bosses, since it buffs your whole party

Psychovamp Shield C - it could be viewed as +10 accuracy for party. But it is very situacional.

Amplified Trust C - medium dmg which we cant pick target (no snipping casters)

Mental Binding D - longcast single target paralyze with minimal aoe immobilize. You do not get much out of it. And migh as well charm.

 

Sacred Horrors D - short duration, not that great effect

Soul Ignition E - longcast, singletarget, takes long time to come to effect

Pain Link E - short duration, hard to find good target

Ectophysic Echo C - could be good, since we can control our position, could be used on summons, or ranger pet. Has potencial, just not easy to use.

Fractured Violition E - single target? no dmg?

Puppet Master B - more expansive Whispers of Treason, also shorter range, not so clear upgrade over Whispers

 

Wild Leach F - tier 1 random single target

Mind Lance E - low dmg, weird shape

Silent Scream C - stunning is good, raw dmg also, Just it is either this or Amplified Wave

Pain Block A - quick, long duration and tier 3 buff. As good as it could be.

Body Atumed A+ - very good, very useful, but it is only single target.

 

Borowed Instinct A+! - super good with buff to everything we care about, and debuff to enemies.

Detonate B - this would be good on low health targets (for destruction effect). Situacional.

Ring Leader A+ spam alot. could really solve mob problems since it is one of few hard CC + dmg to enemies

Echoing Shield B, as good as aoe buff could be,

 

Mind Plague E. long cast, short duration, meh effect

Ampliefield Wave A, foe only, good range, ok dmg (not big) and bonus prone effect. Spam alot (you dont have anything else anyway)

Desintergation A, good single target dps

 

Ancestor Honor X?, no idea how it could be useful

Screaming Sous C, very situacional, distracted non important, but raw dmg could overlap

Stasis Shell C, this could be good for mages, but CC mobs and killing mage is better

 

Defensive Mindweb D,  at least it have some effect, requires Paladin in party, but it pops at dmg, which gives very short duration.

Repeaing Knives D, summoned weapons are not very good, you might use your legendary sticks of doom at this time.

Time Parasite A!/A, very good on Ascendant, otherwise depends how many enemies there are. Cost a lot, but you gain a lot.

 

Driving Echoes C, single target buff, generally leading to overpenetration. spell is good, just cost a lot.

Haunting chains E, so tier IX mighty power, almost as good as tier 5 Ryngrims, but now single target, and with useles hobbed. If enemy is already terrified hobbed does not add much. Weakened is better (kill faster)

Death of 1000 Cuts A, spell is good, problem is existance of Witting Wind. Do not go pure cipher for this one.

 

So that is my list.

***

How to improve:

At tier 8th add passive "You generate +100% more focus" this would be a strong case to not multiclass.

Buff everything with D or worse. Raise dmg, duration, change single target to multi, or improve variety of buffs (like giving tier 3 inspiration). If something is C, buff a little. 

Make Cipher Powers more like Chanter invocations, with ability to upgrade low level powers to something worth end game cast time. Like SOul shock -> increase dmg and area and add stun effect, but increase cost. However, you are paying 2 level points for one spell, so this must be very good.

Introduce Cipher MetaPower Modals. Which are modals on/off. They work on all cipher powers when active increase: damage, duration, area, accuracy, add special effect. But each one adds % to power cost affected. So you can take basic soul shock and then increase area, dmg, accuracy and add stun to it, but it will end costing like 50 focus.

 

***

And how do  you value cipher power?

[Deadfire...in spaaaaaaaaace?]

Not a bad idea. There is very few Space Opera crpg. With fantasy, postapo and even cyberpunk being represented.

There is a challenge in finding best gameplay. Should it be like Mass Effect, like Dawn of War, or like Shadowrun Returns.

No idea which one would be most popular.

 

And what universe would players care about. StarWars, WH40K or Mass Effect, probably yes. But there is a lot risk with new IP.

[Pondering the Godlike]

 

Iron Godlike

 

Not gonna lie, I'm just imagining a dude with an anvil for the top of their head here.

 

Racial trait: Your robes are fresh washed and creases-free.

 

But something like this could be more suitable for crpg:

 

 

 

 

[Pondering the Godlike]

At least there is more interaction with godlikes, that is nice.

It would be nice to have more types of godlikes at some point. Like Iron Godlike, or Dawn Godlikes.

Unfortunetly being child of eoathas would be lore complicated.

[Most of higher tier upgraded abilities seem meh.]

MC often look better at level 20. But what matters are level 7-20. Having build coming together after 16+ you will not see it much in play.

There is a path of building ultimate glassconon with two martial classes, and using party members to support it.

SOme of the power builds are "take your favorite class and add monk".

There is a risk of pushing too much active abillities at tier 8/9 since even single class will not see it play.

I think it is better to push some very strong passives at tier 8+. Like Prestige.

There is an idea to give pool classes passives like "Gain +3 Zeal" at level 8 and 9. So you could just focus on Paladin stuff, and use paladin powers.

There could be more neutral passives (or maybe actives?), at low levels and high. There is problem especially with Priest/Druid/Wizard that if you go single class there is not much you can spend level points on.

Having more neutral passives would make single class more atrctive, since you could always dump your points on neutrals.

There is also an option of taking low level power, and being able to upgrade it even more at level 8.

 

For the record only 30% characters are MC(Josh telemtery data), so it is power players ignore. And creating brand new MC system and then nerf it to trashed level, that is waste of time.

[Specialist Wizards should get their own custom spells]

Being able to craft own spell as mage at tier 9 would be interesting feature.

But also quite hard to implement.

And ppl will complain that it has no unique animation, or the spell is generic,  or something.

[So is 1.1 Really the End of Days?]

There are things which most people agree that it is broken, overpowered, or over the borders "how powerful things should be".

 

And there are things which was just powerful enought to be worth slot, level point or cast time. It is even worse if instead of some small tune down to general power drop it is nerfed hard.

Like Body Attuned, i could stop using it, and relay on chanter/druid armour strippers. Spend focus on Detonation more why not. Just how does it make game any better?

[Did Might get nerfed in the BETA pacth]

It might be change for better to have it additive. It has some nice build implications for rogues who could care less about MIG since they have enought sneak attack. And focus on Dex or Per. This is flovourish.

[favorite and least favorite god(s) in deadfire?]

Most: Magran, she just wants things done, or set ablaze, or both

Least: Berathina, cant romance her. She is such Tsundere.  ;-(

[Which sidekick would you most want to see become a full companion in a future Pillars game or DLC?]

Fassina is troll companion class wise. She is conjurer, which could be interesting in some melee wizard build, but her other classes are only Sorcerer and Loremaster. Very hard to use ocnjuring that way.

 

The rest sidekick generally have at least one good option. With Rekke and Mirke having most martial focused combos.

Still: Vote Ydwin 2018.

[Which sidekick would you most want to see become a full companion in a future Pillars game or DLC?]

Dead men tell no tales, but what about girls?

Ydwin.

I value companions who could some input about lore during quest, and having animancy insight could be it.

But none of other ocmpanions annoys me, so all will be fine.

[a nice surprise hidden in the beta patch...]

It dont have to be full companin. Some aspects of companion i could pass on:

- judging every move (relation system)

- romance (teheku is enought)

- faction affiliation

 

What is nice:

- bacstory to tell on ship if we ask for

- some interactions with quests, input

- some interactions with full companions

 

Personal quests is complex matter, since Pallegina one or Eders was quite interesting. But Aloth was like running to one place to look at some woman. I could skip that.

One way to go is to do quest in general, and make sidekick questgiver (in the Fassina style).

[a nice surprise hidden in the beta patch...]

Satan himslef joins your party.

(the name is vatnir, but still look into those eyes)

[Beta patch 1.1 important changes]

There is a problem of stacking power levels from various sources, and how high you could pump it.

One way to solution it is to reduce all sources of power level.

But Ascesion Potion is a big one.

[Party composition]

Me - Paladin/druid (liberator) quite capable of pulling her own weight

 

preferable companions:

Maia - ranger or ranger/wizard

Eder - swashbuckler

Xoti - contemplative - a priest/monk hybrid

.... I have no idea for the last spot... do I need wizards? If so I might keep Aloth, but if I recruit Maia then I would make her geomancer (ranger/wizard) making Aloth obsolete...

 

 

I kind of wish to run D&D party, with me as healer, Xoti as fighter, Eder as rogue, Maia or Aloth as wizards and one extra fighter/caster.

 

But this game miss classical casters!

You could take Maia Scout, and pure Aloth. Or Pallegina Herald Paladin/Chanter. Tekehu could be food support. especially if you like more agressive Xoti.

Other than that you could always add more dps. Rekke, Mirke have good class combo. But Serafen is also ok if yo value rp.

 

What you need:

Some form of healing, could be priest, druid, chanter, paladin. Ideally if you can multiclass one with another.

AOE clear. Wizard is good. Casters are easy. But there are some melee build using specific weapon with aoe option.

After that pick what you want.

[Beta patch 1.1 important changes]

 

 

It appears that Beckoner now actually has +1 to phrase cost for summons while retaining the other bonus and malus, that'll really push Troubadour to be the go-to for a summoner which it kind of was already. Skald is obviously still great for a martial multi focusing on crits although Paralyze hit-to-crit is only 25% now.

 

And you are right there is still some decent AoE but it is not nearly what it was. AoE weapons such as Whispers being hit as well compounds this. That might actually mean that martial classes will have more trouble on solo runs and push for some more diversity with casters seeing more use as well for their AoE capabilities, assuming you can also get an acceptable level of survivability. 

 

+1 on Summons for Beckoner, so... subclass around summons has summoning nerfed. Yeah that definetly make sense.

At least they could go "Your direct damage invocations cost +1phrase" that would make more sense.

[Beta patch 1.1 important changes]

Ascendant ware powerful, since they could reach max preatty fast, and then spam the heaviest spells they have.

But that was issue with Ascendant, which could be fixed by changin ascession to "have 50% discount on your powers while lasting".

Beside that, there was like 10 powers worth time, which you cant even use all, since you either use 1 power or another (kinda like chanters invocations. Same level as Rogues Druid, some nice stuff, but nothing game breaking. The main reason why everyone picked Attune Body is that ciphers have very few powers worth something.

After nerfs: You still can play Ascendant Rogue. And use same powers as usual - attune.

Beguiler still trashed.

 

It is something. But why?

[Beta patch 1.1 important changes]

Wow, DoC Breastplate nerfed too.

 

Glad to see many, many changes to make things slower because slow = entertaining and fun, right?

Wait isnt DoC BP like the stample of every dps build?

Maybe not a stample, but generally  to go armour for your dps beast.

At least recovery reduction nerf i do understand.

[Patch 1.1.0 Updates Thread]

You nerfed Body Attument. So now it is single target "And Hel Hyraf Crashed". It is not like Ciphers ware particulary OP (outside Ascession spam).

[Beta patch 1.1 important changes]

If DotF is nerfed by just to +10ACC is still good deal, this spells has sevar pros like aoe, ally/enemy, and acc + might, fair duration.

At least on tier 4 Shinning Bacon, Circle of Protection, Crusaders all are potencially worth casting time.

The problems are other priest spells and tiers. With Littanies being to long to cast for so little effect. Or sealing seal being low on dmg despite long cast.

Yesyes Litanies got buffed.