Tigranes

I agree much of the fantasy genre is way too formalised for its own good, and that is the cause of a lot of tedious crap we see. But that's not an inherent failure of the fantasy genre, it's just a fault with the way we have made fantasy. I don't see why we can't get more creative with fantasy (though it might not necessarily sit well with marketing departments). One of the clear ways to do this is to borrow from the history and mythology of different cultures, which is why there was so much potential for Jade Empire. Leaving aside any discussions about whether that game was any good or not, though, what JE did was take some aspects of East Asian mythologies then lay them on top of a High Fantasy core, which is why you don't see the game being particularly creative adn breaking outside the formalities of fantasy storytelling. But that's not to say it can't be done - do you see? TrueNeutral: Yes, but Kaftan seemed to like ME, so I talked about it.

Indeed Pop/Grom, I think JE2 would improve on JE; I hope it's in areas I personally found wanting. I will give JE2 a go once it comes out, probably by borrowing a 360 for a week or so. Got to do that with ME sometime, too. Spider: I've played Ninja Gaiden... I guess you could make that comparison. But there's a huge huge gulf inbetween them, sort of like between Pong and FIFA Soccer 2008. I hardly remember any interesting or good things about JE dialogue. The only parts that I found worth mentioning afterwards were a couple of Henpecked Hou's quips, and the European explorer you get to talk to.

Wait, wait. You deliberately picked a very specific example of an instance that would be impossible in *any* medieval, ancient, high fantasy, or in fact any setting that is not modern or sci-fi, and are trying to say that is an example of how fantasy is a chokehold on creativity, while modern/scifi is a superawesome outlet of creative eruptions? I have no idea how that would be a good example of fantasy's inherent lack of creativity. You could say that you think specific things that are impossible in fantasy such as TV broadcasts very much enrich the game, and thus fantasy is not a very good setting; but what you can't say is that it shows fantasy puts a chokehold on creativity. Every setting has its inherent limitations, including science fiction or Mass Effect's specific setting, and those limitations aren't really the problem, its the designers and how they think and innovate within those limitations. Even if you take a standard Tolkien fantasy world, I would hardly think that the limitations are so draconian creative fantasy worlds are impossible. Blame the people who don't try to innovate and churn out mediocre, tepid fantasy titles, not the genre itself. Personally, I find most sci fi incredibly silly, and hardly see anything to delight about in their creativity (not really), cohesion (nope), or the way the world is explained and justified (mumbo-jumbo). But if you like sci fi (or any genre) more than fantasy, that's fair enough to you. No problem. But I think these genres are all quite similar in the way they have limitations, and its not fantasy that's particularly handicapped.

I get what you mean Kaftan, but even when I didn't try to beat the opponent as fast as possible, and just fooled around using different styles, I didn't feel that they made a whole lot of difference. I am sure this is one area they will look to expand on in JE2, though. CrashGirl, the core gameplay is still like KOTOR (except for the combat); there's dialogue, there's wandering around, taking quests, and all that.

To be fair, JE combat *is* spamming. I mean, you can debate that other games have the same type of spamming, which is fair enough, but the majority of combat in JE, especially since its pretty easy on normal difficulty, involves pressing the same button (or two) a lot then picking up the big glowing balls that fall from dead enemies. I thought the basic mechanic was a decent idea and had promise, but it let itself down by being a bit *too* simple; not only do you require no targeting, the entire game you are stuck with the same paper-scissors-rock principle and just gain a few transformations and whatnot to make a difference. If the combat gameplay had had a couple of twists to it and was a bit harder, I think it might well have been quite enjoyable.

But Kaftan, doesn't every gamer dream of the day when they may command legions of tentacle troopers, watching in awe as each and every tentacle are independently animated? It is a good period, I'm very curious about how they are going to make combat against the natives interesting though. Surely this means a great change from the older TW maps, which were basically big empty fields? Surely it means moving slowly through jungles, lots of rivers, shallow streams and bridges and buildings, all of which confer extreme advantages/disadvantages? Now all that with TW armies might well be unique.

Heh. I wouldn't bet on it, they might well come up with The Ancient Empire of Qing* with their ancient yet advanced technologies and long-forgotten martial art styles. And ghosts of dead warriors bound by honour or whatnot. *Or Ming, Han, Woloongo or Badoom-Badoom Kaduch.

Well, I hoped it would be set in Asia, but this was probably the most likely setting. From skimming, the welcome point of usable buildings on the combat map is noted; hopefully the strategic map has more of a tactical element as well, i.e. the ability to build forts on the strat map and defend chokepoints properly (instead of having everyone just run past you a la RTW/MTW2). Naval battles look nice too, though this will kill my computer. But as always, the make or break will be whether they manage to make the AI even remotely acceptable, finally.

That's exactly the point I was making in another thread, but never you mind. Alright, alright, I guess we can all get caught up in what exactly is Fantasy according to Dr. Dudakebabra of Oxford University and whatever, but I think the relevant point regarding JE is that a) its adoption of the East Asian mythical setting has been superficial, by that meaning adopting the graphical look and names and so forth but not underlying differences or uniqueness in philosophy or design or whatever; b) and therefore, the fantasy-or-not-or-whatever world of JE at first appearance looks different, but this is very quickly exposed to show a decidedly mediocre and tedious setting that is hardly different from your run-of-the-mill high fantasy RPG. It may or may not be classified as fantasy, but I would argue that the differences were only superficial and the game played and the setting existed much in the same way as a high fantasy world would.

Yes, JE is fantasy. And it would indeed be nice to have things more sketched out beyond things like "Oh there's a Sky God Emperor with Thunderbolts of Fire".

People more intelligent than I have worked in fast food, does that mean I can't have children? :'( I still don't get how you can not notice pregnancy at all for nine months. I mean, isn't the weight change at least quite severe? How can it be confused with regular weight gain?

Well, yes, but that's as hard to regulate as it is to stop illegal immigration. If you could just make laws and regulations saying "please dont' illegally immigrate", and "please, some of you smart and skilled people, stay and improve your own country", we'd all be fine and dandy. I can talk about a minor brain drain that's been going on the last decade or so in New Zealand - in some occupations people can work the same job in UK or Australia, and even with higher living costs, make at least double they do here, and that's led to a culture where people who achieve at the highest levels in education or junior stages of their careers expect to make it overseas. The fact is that this will only stop when the original motivation for their leaving is gone - i.e. by making working in NZ more viable than it is now, either by paying them more, better working conditions, or whatnot.

Anybody who is acquainted with actual Chinese or East Asian culture can confirm this statement, regarding Jade Empire. I mean, their transposing KOTOR Light/Dark Sides isn't even the beginning. But then, I don't think Chinese literature holds a lot of interest for Western audiences. I'm realistically pessimistic about even just Chinese martial arts being adapated to JE2 without undergoing that 'localisation' for the Westerners that we are already familiar with. It is, after all, quite inevitable in many ways.

The first one made my head hurt.

What it really needs inspiration from is the Romance of the Three Kingdoms side of things - the politics and court intrigues, and how they are governed, sometimes, by very different rules and conventions; there's some great stuff there, especially for the East Asian triplets (korea/china/japan) and it might be the way to go after they've done the 'ghosts and fluffies'.

Wals' point is excellent by the way. A double-digit percentage of the world would probably die or starve simply because of that logistics factor. Once communication and transport lines are cut off somewhere like New York, there's going to be a lot of dying.

Replace 'rats' with 'krators' or 'zeelax' or some other silly sci-fi name, colour them fluorescent blue, replace the axe with a broken pistol and have at thee!

Yes Kaftan. Of course, Kaftan. Would Kaftan like some champagne? I thought Jade Empire was okay, but nothing very exciting or memorable; the setting certainly has potential though, if they don't choose to make it a Light Side v. Dark Side game again (I mean, hello?) and revamp the combat. I'm unlikely to ever get a console, but we shall see.

I feel inadequate and emasculated.

On the Roman Empire comparison, well, it's not a very good comparison to illegal immigrants issue at all, but to extend on Lucian: the reason the influx of foreigners coincided with the degeneration of the Roman Army is because the traditions of local representation, pride/prestige, and the climbing of the political ladder through military service, all began to seriously die out by that time. The fact is that once Rome after the Punic Wars became so large citizen conscripts commanded by generals who only had an yearly tenure could not manage the business, and the influx of wealth into Rome, and later the great changes to the Roman political system and ideas of prestige through the conversion into a Principate/Empire, destroyed that system by which one wanted to serve in the Army. The foreign mercenaries were a sign not a cause. But let's not get too off topic; as I said, it's not a very good comparison to begin with. theslug brings up a point which is probably fair enough (I am not informed enough to say); but I struggle to think of any better way to fight the negative effects of illegal immigrants, than to try and integrate them and make them legal and deserving of legal as much as possible. It's certainly not going to work if you try and deport them one by one.

samm, its just that most of us had already agreed with him in a previous thread on those points you quoted, so we're just skippin'. The question of illegal immigrants is a pertinent one even when you are the greatest friend of immigrants (you know, I am an Asian immigrant). It's got nothing to do with being 'swiss' or whatnot, unless you were talking to Dark Raven. In which case, ten foot pole and a glass of something strong for me. The fact is that a country's ability to regulate who enters its borders is fairly crucial to its integrity, and our society is in no way ready to ditch that system altogether just yet. I'm sure there are numerous things associated with military, such as being crippled or traumatised, other than outright death in service.

But wouldn't it benefit the US most to end up with integrated immigrants who can actually speak/write English to a decent level, understand to a reasonable degree the US culture, and have enough skills to support themselves and their family? So that they don't fall into poverty or destitution, they don't raise the crime levels, they don't leech money from the social services, so that they contribute to society? I think that is a much more important benefit from the US' point of view rather than 'free' soldiers. By the way Sand, in another thread you said recently that 'making dumb decisions doesn't mean someone is always dumb', or something along those lines, about Bush. The same logic can apply here. Of course entering illegally did not show 'good behaviour', but to say that they are then incapable of showing 'good behaviour' afterwards and integrating themselves would be a logical fallacy. I am not going to debate with you about whether it's right or wrong to give illegal immigrants a way in in the first place, as I said before: but since you began the discussion with the possibility of giving illegal immigrants a way in (through military service), I assume you are not at the moment taking the point of "illegal immigrants are illegal, they should leave, all of them, the end". So, *if* we are going to give illegal immigrants any way 'in' to the US, wouldn't it be better to do so in a way that gives the US the maximum social benefit, and isn't quite so bad for the immigrants either? I'm not sure how it will help the US or the situation in general to have random illegal immigrants, some of whom will hardly be able to speak English, go into your army, serve for a while, then come back and find they are legal immigrants but have no skills to sustain themselves.

I am slightly confused, Sand. From what I remember of the previous discussion regarding illegal immigrants, you rejected a suggestion that illegal immigrants who are on good behaviour, work hard to assimilate themselves and contribute to the community should be given amnesty, and asserted that while borders should be easier to cross legally, those who have already entered illegally should be given no leeway. But isn't your suggestion of military service as a 'way in' for those already illegal immigrants working along the same logic? Is it the case of you changing your mind a bit, or is there a distinction here I have yet to grasp? I would furthermore question whether military service would really make an illegal immigrant 'worthy' of the legal right to live in the U.S. I would have thought that, just like legal immigrants, one would want any foreigner living in the United States to be a contributor to the community and a well assimilated citizen long-term; meaning things like skills required for a long-term job, English skills, and cultural proficiency regarding the American way of life. Military service would not very efficiently equip an illegal immigrant with any of these things. Why do you think that military service is an appropriate way for illegal immigrants to earn their right to live? If you were going to give illegal immigrants any way of earning their right to live (as opposed to deporting them all or leaving things the way they are), would it not be encouraging them to attain linguistic/cultural proficiency and demonstrate skills and thus prove to the US that they have a sustainable model for living in the country and can contribute to the community? I would think their staying in the US society, and being detected by the US agencies, would be more productive than being shipped off to Iraq or something. It should be noted that I am speaking entirely separate to the question of whether illegal immigrants 'should' be cared for, or 'what good are those foreigners anyway', or whatnot. I'm just responding exactly to Sand's original suggestion and asking some questions.

So Kaftan, what would you rather see instead of "cliche Fantasy drivel" (which I would be the first to admit, exists)? Some fantasy that isn't quite so cliche? Or would you prefer a different genre predominate altogether? I mean, apart from some underused settings like cyberpunk (in RPG, anyway), the genres all have their share of 'drivel', the prime examples in gaming being sci-fi and ww2.

You get 3 bronze at levels 1-10, 2 bronze/1 silver at levels 11-20, and so forth.