Sable Phoenix

If you haven't even played the games that actually have the good romances you say don't exist, then you're debating from a position of ignorance. Either that or you've just skipped my posts completely and don't want to take the time to go back, read them, and engage the points I raise there, which means you are debating from a position of willful ignorance and just don't care what anyone else has to say on the subject. Who needs to broaden their horizons, again? Until you do, I don't find you worth engaging in any further discussion, especially with your snide and condescending tone.

I just finished a portrait of what will be my first character, an elven Moon Godlike. I don't know yet if she'll be a Chanter or a Cipher. I tried to emulate the style of the existing character portraits. I don't think I did very well, something still feels off about this to me, but I've spent ten or twelve hours on it and I don't think I'll fix whatever's wrong with it if I haven't already.

Longknife, I've already mentioned in my previous posts why and how romance should be done. Go read them. Especially read the one where I discuss the relationship of Dak'kon with TNO in Planescape:Torment. It's not romantic, obviously, but I use it to illustrate a point that you've missed. Or perhaps just avoided. Also, pro-romance attitudes are not a minority among the community of any RPG I've ever played. If the option for romance is there, most players will take it. I wish you'd stop trotting out the "Obsidian devs hate romance!" bromide, since they already have mentioned they have nothing against romance per se, it was simply a question of time allocation during development. As far as hyperbole... you might want to check yourself on that one.

Apologies for snippage: Okay, if the thrust of your argument against romances is that they're all the same and there's no original concept left to explore, you shouldn't be consuming any media at all, because all stories have already been told countless times over. There is no such thing as a new or original story. What there are, are new and original settings and characters. The stories have all been told already, but the people they happen to and the how and why of them happening is what makes them interesting. And this applies to romance as much as it does any other aspect of any other story. And frankly, your self-admitted "high-horsing" is coming across as condescending and, for some people I'm sure, almost offensive, with your implication that anyone who enjoys a romance in a game (which is not terribly different than a romance in any other media) is some kind of emotionally stunted social reject who can only experience intimacy through a virtual "waifu". Just because you can't think of a good, interesting way to do romance doesn't mean it's not there. Just because you don't enjoy romance (I'm assuming only in media, although from your vehemence I wouldn't be surprised if it's the very concept itself) doesn't mean that people who do are somehow lesser.

>crosses legs, adjusts glasses, picks up pen and notepad< Interestingk. Vhy do you feel dis vhey?

It's not so much that I look down on them as I tend to exaggerate things, so much as I just can't fathom why they want the romance options in the first place. I've never truly had a romance story in an RPG game play out in a good way (if there's an exceptionally good one out there, let me know, I love to be proven wrong about these things), they always feel so shoehorned in and badly done that I can't imagine why anyone would want it. There are even people that say (as evidenced by this thread in fact) that having a romance option is such a big factor to them that they wouldn't buy a game without it. I'm kind of on the opposite end of that spectrum, I don't want a badly played out romance shoved in my face. After a bad experience with that kind of thing (among other bad things, of course) in Dragon Age 2, and seeing all that on display in DA3 previews I opted to skip the game entirely. To me it's like people are playing the same game as me for different reasons, and since there's only so much you can fit into any game, allocating resources for a romance plot could take away from things that would be better served with more resources, similar to your example of not wanting the time and money spent on evil path options as the expense of good options/core gameplay. Also I absolutely do snub my friends on certain games, as they do me. That's half the fun of talking game with people If you're using Dragon Age 2 as your metric for RPG romances, I'd suggest expanding your repertoire a little. Frankly, Bioware's romance writing has... not been stellar, of late, not since they were acquired by EA. As I've previously mentioned, Anna from Planescape:Torment had a (in my opinion) touching and organic romance, if you chose to pursue it. Actually, so did Deionarra, even though she was a ghost... it was also very unusual because a lot of it was played out by experiencing flashbacks of TNO's relationship with her in their previous life, and then responding to those in the present. The fact that your previous incarnation was a heartless bastard who was just using her, but that you could use this current life to make it up to her spirit and even fall in love with her retroactively in your quest to set her free, was something that made the whole romance subplot very touching and bittersweet and something unique among any RPG romance I've ever seen. I've always thought that Carth Onasi's romance in KOTOR was really well done, proving that yes, BioWare CAN write romances well if they really try. If your Revan was a little sarcastic and a little flirty (basically possessed of a well-developed sense of humor, keep in mind you DID program HK-47 after all), not overly sympathetic when he expressed his emotions to her, but not dismissive or cruel either, and always remained Light side, Carth would fall for you. If you weren't that particular combination, he would just be your good friend. It all felt very organic and natural. I remember my very first playthrough my Revan was completely soft-hearted, being purely sympathetic and gentle whenever Carth opened up about his past tragedies, and despite taking flirtatious conversation options, by the end of the game he thought of her as a friend and leader but he wasn't in love with her. My next playthrough (and others afterward) saw me playing a more snarky, irreverent Revan who wasn't afraid to verbally slap him around a little bit, and that stronger, more assertive personality meant that by the end of the game he pulled out the "I love you" card. Which was honestly a surprise to me, as my previous playthrough had conditioned me to expect that there was no actual romance there.

I regret to inform you that your punning behavior requires pun-ishment. >defenestrates Halsy<

Please don't read this in an accusatory tone, but instead in the spirit of genuine curiosity that it's intended: You look down on people who enjoy RPG romances? That's kind of bizarre to me. Why are you so vehement about your feelings on that subject? I can understand hating certain options in RPGs. I hate evil options, I've never played an RPG where I went through as an evil, or even predominantly selfish, character. To me, any given RPG would only be improved if all the time and effort put into developing the content in an evil playthrough was instead devoted to expanding the content of the good path. However, I know some people like that kind of playthrough, and ultimately, I feel like broadening the potential playerbase for a game I enjoy is a good thing, even if the content developed to do so never directly benefits me. I can't even fathom looking down on somebody who prefers to play things a different way than you do. That goes for any opinion, really; looking down on someone just because they enjoy something you don't seems incredibly close-minded and judgmental. If your best friend enjoyed RPG romances, would you still look down on him or her for it?

Haha, you and me both. Some of the most memorable relationships I've experienced with digital characters were the romances. The Nameless One and Anna, Revan and Carth Onasi, the Grey Warden and the (both incredibly sweet) romances with Alistair and Leliana. Of course there have been plenty of shallow and unmemorable romances as well; I don't really remember the Jade Empire romances having much resonance for example, or the KOTOR2 romances (heck, Atton Rand's actually creeped me out, but I didn't really care for any of the characters in that game anyway... different strokes for different folks I guess). With Chris Avelone and all the other stellar writers at Obsidian involved, I'm sure they could pull off some deep and memorable romances in Pillars of Eternity. Here's hoping we get that exact DLC.

I admit I was disappointed when I learned that there wouldn't be any romance subplots in Pillars of Eternity. A well-written romance can add a lot of depth to a character and really increase the emotional investment of the player. I'm not a game writer, so branching dialogue paths aren't my skillset, but I am a writer, and romantic relationships are no more difficult to write than (or from another perspective, are just as difficult to write as) any other type of interpersonal relationship. I'm curious and confused about the reasoning behind the claim that a romance needs to have some influence on or importance to the plot in order to have a place in an RPG. The majority of characters that you get in your party are not integral to the plot, either in their story or indeed their very existence. Lets look at Planescape:Torment as an example. You had two characters in your party who were important to the development of the plot of the game the entire way through: Morte and Dak'kon. Ignis had a place in the plot, but only at the end, and he always appeared there regardless of whether you took him in your party the whole game or not. Anna did influence the plot, but really only to the halfway point -- once you gained Pharod's sphere you could have left her behind without missing too much by way of the main story. By the nature of the game design and the fact that you might choose not to take them with you, most characters you can gain in your party by their very definition cannot be critical to the plot's advancement. This doesn't make them any less important. They add significant depth and emotional involvement to the game. Who doesn't remember helping Dak'kon to know the Circle of Zerthimon (provided your WIS was high enough)? Was that critical to the advancement of the plot? Hardly. Was it important to the experience that was Planescape:Torment? Absolutely. You could decide to pursue it or not, but it's there and it gives a significant amount of insight and emotional investment into the character of both Dak'kon and yourself. In the same way, the romance with Anna had no significant influence on the plot, but it broadened her character and yours and made the experience of the game richer. Whether you're talking about friendships, rivalries, or romances, it's all character development, and at the end of the day, a story is no better than its characters. There's no reason to care about the story unless we care about the people involved in it. To that end, romance has as much place in an RPG as any other type of relationship.

Wespenfresser, your art is amazing, and I hope we get the privelege of seeing more of it in the future. As a fellow artist, the entitled whining of certain other parties on this thread disgusts me too. Please don't let it discourage you from making or sharing more art.