[Ravager = Star Destroyer?]

Well, in fact what you are doing is nothing like the scientific method, but whatever. The scientific method first stablishes a theory.

 

Very well, would you be satisfied if I said part of the scientific method instead?

 

Then it compares the theory to the observed phenomenon, and if the theory can explain the phenomenon in a satisfactory manner, the theory becomes law. In this case, the theory contradicts the observed.

 

More specifically, that part.

 

Not to mention that trying to apply the scientific method to something ruled only by the writer's whim is nothing but a waste of time.

 

Then so is arguing about this in the first place, as it's merely an application of the scientific principle.

 

Now, all the proof I have seen supporting that the Leviathan is a Republic vessel is nothing but a lot of wild speculation, and interpretation of conversations.

On the other hand, it is clearly stated that Malak's fleet is largely composed of alien vessels. In the cutscenes you see only one kind of ship. It is only logical to assume that those vessels are the alien ships they are making reference to. That is consistent too with the fact that the Republic fleet doesn't have a single one of those "Leviathan" ships. In fact, it is consistent with everything, except Carth's dialogues, and that only if you interpret them in a certain way.

 

From one point of view, yes. However, the same argument can be applied to support the exact opposite.

Regardless, fact of the matter is, the highest authority on the issue has already spoken, and that is the databank, unless you can prove that you are of higher authority of course. Unless a higher authority makes a stand, that is the status quo until proven otherwise. The theories may both be valid, but until one is proven and the other is not, one is the right one and the other is the wrong one. You can argue that the databank is wrong, the burden of proof is still yours. Likewise, you can continue to argue all the way up the Star Wars food chain until you reach Lucas himself, at which point you got an answer that cannot be wrong.

[Visas Fanart]

I admit I am a bit harsh, but like I said, brutal honesty is my thing. The drawing is by no means bad, but I've seen better. There's not much depth in the colors and a fairly limited use of shadows etc. Am I a bad person because I provide actual feedback? The first step to improve something is to know what the problems are. It's not like I told him (or her, possibly) to go shove it where neither sun nor moon shine and retire from drawing for all eternity.

[The Visas Marr Poll]

In all fairness, Bastila is still rather young in KotOR (I think it was determined to be early 20's at most, maybe even below 20). That might account for some of her behavior (and I agree that she's rather childish/girly at times). Visas struck me as somewhat older, perhaps 30 or so. She could've been more interesting, she just wasn't developed enough. Perhaps the romance is deeper, but I got the feeling it only was for Visas. Bastila and Revan had that whole force bond going, which should logically result in a fairly deep relationship.

[Continuity kills KOTOR]

I actually want the exile's story to be resolved. However, ironically, the only way that I can see based on the information I have right now, is actually that the exile dies.

[Ravager = Star Destroyer?]

But the databank is an official source, and the only indisputable source that is left in this case. Therefore, it is right by default. It is because someone over there determined that it is so, and that person is of higher authority than anyone around here (unless Lucas is hiding out in this forum or something, or if you claim that you know more about Star Wars than the people who made the database). This is valid, because the subject is an imaginary story, therefore someone with the highest authority can decide which version of the story is correct, regardless of whatever else is said. In fact, if Lucas dropped in and said that it's actually not a ship at all, it's the Loch Ness monster, then that's what it is regardless of what is said in the game or anywhere else. It's stupid perhaps, and hard to believe, but that's still how it is. Nothing else matters, really.

 

You can of course deny this if you want, but not as long as you're using arguments to further your cause in the way you have. Arguments are ultimately intended for proving something, proving in turn is derived from science, which follows the principle I've described. Disregard that, and the statement "I like apples" is as relevant as anything you may find in the game (i.e. not at all).

 

As for my vision, I don't care. Up until I read this thread, I hadn't thought about the issue at all. I picked republic simply because that's what the scientific principle that managed to drag us out of the medieval age told me to do.

[Atton and Carth fanart]

A distinct disney feeling over them I'd say. I probably wouldn't have recognized them if you hadn't pointed it out.

[Ravager = Star Destroyer?]

But that's not at all what you're saying. You're saying that both theories are equal. They are not. One is right by default. The other is wrong until proven right (at which point that one will be right by default).

[So, what did Vrook want you to do?]

Vrook has hair?

[Visas Fanart]

*Gasp* A politically incorrect exile!

 

Anyway, shouldn't her clothes be red? Oh, and I think the veil is a separate piece from the hood, but I'm not sure. Other than that, I dunno. It's a bit... flat. Simple, I suppose. It's not bad or anything, better than anything I could ever hope to do, but it's no work of art to be honest. Sorry, guess brutal honesty is just my thing.

[Ravager = Star Destroyer?]

if someone tells me about the design of a car for example the first thing i guess is the shape of the car and its line and then maybe by interiors... for example i don't think to the engine, suspensions and generally the mechanic of it, they are of competence of engineers more than designers

 

And that discredit those who does look at the engine etc.? I can guarantee that there are a lot of people who will go for the engine or whatever first. I'm not an engineer, nor a designer, but when I hear that they designed a new car, I don't jump to the conclusion that they slapped a new hull on something old. In fact, I'm more inclined to believe that they did in fact change the engine and interiors etc., and used an old (but perhaps slightly modified) hull.

 

In any case, you've missed the point entierly. You don't only have to prove that your theory is valid, you have to prove that it's the only valid theory, if you intend to make it the accepted one. If you can't prove that it's the only valid one, then you have to settle with "maybe not being wrong", which is far from the same thing as being right. I don't think you're quite clear on what we're arguing about. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying that you might be wrong. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn way one or the other about whether the Leviathan is republic or alien. I don't think it matters. I believe it is a republic ship, because that is the status quo whether you like it or not and anyone is yet to convince me that it's wrong.

 

Don't you understand what I'm talking about? Seriously, do I have to draw you a graph? Because from what I'm seeing, either you're simply refusing to listen, you don't understand the principle of the scientific method, or you think you're smart enough to ignore roughly 500 years (if not more) worth of scientists and philosophers.

[Anyone else feel the game was somehow incomplete?]

The real thing that upsets me and I think a lot of people on this board... Die-hard OE, SW and RPG fans alike... Is that this game shows so much potential... SO MUCH...

 

I've said the same thing before, more than once.

 

On that note, this is the reason I complain. It's probably easy to read my posts and assume I hate everything about the game because I seem to have a problem with everything. However, if you do, you've failed to realize that it's because I like the game that I complain. If I had hated it, I wouldn't have bothered posting at all. I post because I want to point out mistakes (at least what I perceive as mistakes) so the game, or at least the sequel, can become better. Perhaps I'm more critical of certain things that they deserve, and maybe that's a problem, but that doesn't make what I say any more false. I can only speak for myself, and there are exceptions of course, but I refuse to believe that everyone who complain about KotOR2 or any game for that matter do it because they hate it.

[Ravager = Star Destroyer?]

What exactly is the 3D, first of all?

 

Second, I can't see any quote by Battlewookie that goes beyond "alien design", which, as mentioned, doesn't necessarily refer to the hull.

[Star Wars vs. RPG]

RPG, no doubt. I have no problem with Star Wars, though I in my mind, very few good SW games were released after TIE Fighter (collectors edition). I've read 2 EU books, seen the original trilogy as well as the first of the new movies, played a couple of the games (tested many more briefly), but that's pretty much it.

[Ravager = Star Destroyer?]

the main source is the game itself the databank draw its info from it.

 

Be that as it may (and it is possible that whoever wrote the article contacted BioWare), the databank is still a far more reliable source than you. Besides, your source is also the game, is it not?

 

in the game by dialogues and seem by loading screen is "stated" that the curved ship is of alien design.

 

Did it explicitly state that it was the hull design? If not, it could've referred to propulsion, weapons, shields or other equipment. Maybe the hull design was based on the Leviathan, the most advanced ship Revan had at the time. Perhaps it's just a freak accident that made the two designs indentical (albeit unlikely). Outside the game, someone said that it might've been to save animation time that they simply re-used the ship without thinking.

 

i can debate that maybe Saul changed his ship after he proven to be loyal to ship and the ship we see in KOTOR1 is not the same he used in mandalorian wars.

 

And I can say that he didn't.

 

in same way you can debate that maybe the statement that "the sith fleet is mainly composed by alien design ship" is not referred to the curved ships, even if they seem to be the backbone of sith fleet.

 

See the note about design.

 

As long as those counter-arguments remain valid, you haven't proven anything, merely stated a non-sanctioned alternative. So basically, that makes this a matter of your word against the database. As that is a more reliable (and I believe officially sanctioned) source, it is right by default.

[Ravager = Star Destroyer?]

or the theory that is an alien ship

 

Actually no. As I said, the databank for example state that it is a republic ship. You can't possibly debate that (it would mean that you're saying that the databank *doesn't* say it's a republic ship, a statement that is easy to check). The game itself have some hints that indicate that it's a republic ship (dialogue, mostly) and some that indicate that it's a Star Forge ship (the design). Both are disputable in various ways, thus we fall back on the only indisputable source, which in this case is the databank which states that it is a republic ship. Hence, the burden of proof lies on whoever claims that it's a Star Forge ship, and unless that person manages to discredit any hints towards a republic ship and any alternative explanation to the "proof" that he or she presents that it is a Star Forge ship, then the only reliable source will remain the databank, which in turn means that we still assume that it is, in fact, a republic ship. It may not be the actual truth, but it is the accepted truth. You may disagree with it (as you have) and try to find other explanations (as you have), but until you've managed to do what I said above, it will remain the accepted truth, not a mere theory.

 

And that, is the scientific method. Feel free to look it up.

[Continuity kills KOTOR]

I thought Obsidian handled the consequences of both Kotor 1 endings nicely.

 

If you're willing to accept that nothing you did actually made a difference, yes. I found the DS version especially strained at times, like Korriban for example. They managed it because they didn't handle the consequences of KotOR1. They just skillfully ignored them. It wasn't a bad job, it's just that it's the wrong job for the situation, and they painted themselves into a corner.

[Ravager = Star Destroyer?]

I don't have to. Just the fact that there *is* a debate supports the theory that it's a republic ship. If you follow scientific standards, that is.

[The Kreia Poll]

Bao-Dur, for example, called me general and introduced himself. I was given a limited array of choices (for both. I mean, ask why he called me general? Is the exile stupid or suffering from amnesia?). Either "who? or "yeah, I think I remember you" (which is obviously a lie, because I don't remember him, yet my character seems to). I thought it'd go further than that, especially after the hints about Malachor, but it didn't. I went along with it and hoped to God that I'd eventually be given the full story.

 

As for Revan, put yourself in his/her shoes. You're told that Revan is dead in no uncertain terms. You have a personality and memories already (you were given new ones by the council). You have an odd link with a jedi who can give an, if not good, then at least reasonable explanation to the visions. Would you have thought "oh I'm probably Revan"? As a player, you might, because you know it's a game and you don't have the personality and memories, but as a character? I doubt it.

[Anyone else feel the game was somehow incomplete?]

I believe OE can make a better game than KotOR2. In fact, I'm sure they can. The critical issue is probably how much time they'll be given, and how much freedom Lucas is willing to grant them.

[Ravager = Star Destroyer?]

As there is not something that really clarify what happened all is about speculation... i have my reasons to think they are of alien design you have yours to think is a republic ship.

 

Be that as it may, the burden of proof lies on you. There are things in the game that hints at the Leviathan being a republic ship, the databank states it is so explicitly. The only hard proof you have is that it looks like another ship, and that can actually be explained (and that's all the is needed, I don't have to prove that explanation is correct, only present a valid alternative to your explanation). Unless you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that your theory is the only correct one, the correct answer is still the status quo, which in this case is that the Leviathan is a republic ship.

[The Kreia Poll]

Because I wasn't given a bunch of hints about a history that I eventually found out didn't exist, and the choices I had were not really based on that non-existing history. Then, when the visions came etc., I started suspecting things of course, but so did my character (though of course nowhere near as strongly as I personally did. I mean, would you have if you were in that position?).

[Anyone else feel the game was somehow incomplete?]

Doubt it'll work (considering some of the reviews KotOR2 got, which apparently were written by people who haven't actually finished the game yet), but I'm in. I'm gonna wait a while before I buy it and read the relevant boards instead. You know, since it's far more accurate than whatever score system IGN has dreamed up for the day.

[The Kreia Poll]

Well obviously I'm supposed to give them feelings, but I expect something to react to. "I'm Revan? How shall I deal with this?" compared to "Oh, nothing happened and/or I have no idea what's going on... Ehm... Pazaak anyone?". It was kinda hard for me to find something to work with, especially on the romantic front, considering that I wouldn't have a clue there was anything romantic going on at all if it wasn't for a few cutscences that didn't even involve the PC.

[The Kreia Poll]

Well, yeah, Revan was no work of art, but the character did provide me with something to work with, from which I could invent feelings (and the game can't really discredit it by limiting dialogue choices). The exile was completely hollow. I sort of assumed I'd be given a history to work with given all the hints, but it never came. So basically, I went through the entire game without a real character, emotions were not exactly in abundance, and I didn't even get a proper ending.

[Anyone else feel the game was somehow incomplete?]

This is old news (no offense, it's just that there's been enough threads about it to fill the forum already). The really interesting issue here is that not only does TSL lack an ending, it also made sure that the first game lost the ending it had.