Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Is it going to be published by Paradox Interactive?


  • Please log in to reply
75 replies to this topic

#61
Katarack21

Katarack21

    Chief Eldritch Abomination of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2098 posts
  • Steam:Katarack21
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

No, what I'm claiming is exactly what I said: That they lock out features of the base game and then re-enable them for DLC content. This isn't new, by the way. Companies do this *all the time*. It's literally a prominent business model in the game industry. It shouldn't be a shocker that a game publication studio is doing this...literally tons of studios do this all the time. It's a common feature, a known quantity, a typical and normal thing within the video game industry...and one that I despise.

That's *not* how DLC's work. Not at all. They released an update, a DLC (as used colloquially to refer to relatively small packages of features and updates, separate from an expansion), and are working on an expansion. The update contains a bunch of unlocked features. That's fine. The DLC *ALSO* contains a bunch of unlocked features, but these are bigger features with more impact...and cost money. The *expansion* is all-new content.

Three separate releases, only one of which is a "DLC", and that DLC specifically contains features that already in the base game--some of which are simply being unlocked and some of which required minor completion (ie, a few lines of code to make it functional). Nothing is *ADDED* in that DLC. Things are only *ADDED* in the expansion, which is all-new content (IE, not in the base game). You do not get any of the features of the DLC for free; there is a completely separate free update which contains some "new" features.

 

None of the features that Paradox DLC's add are in the base game before the release of said DLC. 

 

That's simply not accurate. Maybe it used to be, but "Tales of the Tiers" specifically contains stuff that's already in the base game, but unlocked or "completed functionality".



#62
Katarack21

Katarack21

    Chief Eldritch Abomination of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2098 posts
  • Steam:Katarack21
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

@Katarack Europa Universalis 4 was released in 2013 and has had at least two non-cosmetic expansions this year so no, my language isn't inaccurate at all: these are features.

I am sure you'll claim that these features were secretly in the game all along, but if you do so you'd simply be demonstrating your ignorance of their games.

Is Paradox's DLC policy good? Not particularly. But they aren't as bad as the worst offenders in the industry and you do your cause* no good by acting like they do.

*A cause I share I might add.

No, I won't, because I don't know that game and you can't force me to have opinions just so you can make a false point. I'm talking about a Tyranny DLC. That's *all* I've talked about.



#63
Sakai

Sakai

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 139 posts
  • Location:Moscow

No, I won't, because I don't know that game and you can't force me to have opinions just so you can make a false point. I'm talking about a Tyranny DLC. That's *all* I've talked about.

Do you have any proof of that? Because some files present in the base game means nothing by itself. They could've started develpmont on the feature before the release and couldn't finish it in time. In fact, i'm pretty sure that's probably what happened since to claim otherwise is just insane. But even if that was the case, how do you know that it's Paradox's fault and not Obsidians? You don't, you just do a whole lot of assuming. 

 

Yeah, so this whole rant was about a single piece of DLC, and you don't know anything else about Paradox... Good to know. 



#64
Katarack21

Katarack21

    Chief Eldritch Abomination of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2098 posts
  • Steam:Katarack21
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

No, I won't, because I don't know that game and you can't force me to have opinions just so you can make a false point. I'm talking about a Tyranny DLC. That's *all* I've talked about.

Do you have any proof of that? Because some files present in the base game means nothing by itself. They could've started develpmont on the feature before the release and couldn't finish it in time. In fact, i'm pretty sure that's probably what happened since to claim otherwise is just insane. But even if that was the case, how do you know that it's Paradox's fault and not Obsidians? You don't, you just do a whole lot of assuming. 

 

Yeah, so this whole rant was about a single piece of DLC, and you don't know anything else about Paradox... Good to know. 

 

Or, alternatively, this discussion was about a single piece of DLC and I'm not allowing other people to put statements about other games into my mouth.



#65
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    (12) Mage

  • Members
  • 1934 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

No, I won't, because I don't know that game and you can't force me to have opinions just so you can make a false point. I'm talking about a Tyranny DLC. That's *all* I've talked about.

 

You replied to my post which was specifically talking about DLC for Paradox's grand strategy games. It is not my fault if I imagined you were talking about the DLCs for those games. If you know nothing about those games, then don't reply to a post about DLC for them saying that my "language is inaccurate and reflects marketing lies, not reality."



#66
Katarack21

Katarack21

    Chief Eldritch Abomination of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2098 posts
  • Steam:Katarack21
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

No, I won't, because I don't know that game and you can't force me to have opinions just so you can make a false point. I'm talking about a Tyranny DLC. That's *all* I've talked about.

 

You replied to my post which was specifically talking about DLC for Paradox's grand strategy games. It is not my fault if I imagined you were talking about the DLCs for those games. If you know nothing about those games, then don't reply to a post about DLC for them saying that my "language is inaccurate and reflects marketing lies, not reality."

 

Yes, but your post wasn't about that specific game. I can talk about Paradox's DLC policies regardless of which branch of their games your discussing because their largely the same in broad strokes company-wide; I can't talk about any specific issues with any specific DLC that I haven't played.

What you did was talk about the DLC in broad terms so that I would respond, and then try to norrow into a specific game in order to force a statement into my mouth so you could refute it and make me look like an idiot. It doesn't work like that.

Even in one of your own posts at one point you said "The problem is that many of these extra features are still present in the game even if you don't buy the DLC but the player can't interact with them"...when talking about Paradox's strategy game DLC's.



#67
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    (12) Mage

  • Members
  • 1934 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Yes, but your post wasn't about that specific game. I can talk about Paradox's DLC policies regardless of which branch of their games your discussing because their largely the same in broad strokes company-wide; I can't talk about any specific issues with any specific DLC that I haven't played.

 

Here is my post, quoted in full:

 

I can see there's no convincing you Katarack, so I won't bother trying.

 

@Wormerine: with their grand strategy games Paradox has, I think, gone too far with their non-cosmetic DLC. Often these DLCs add new features to the game which, if you don't buy them, you don't have access to. This in itself isn't a problem per se, after all I don't think anyone would complain about the fact that people who didn't buy the White March expansions didn't get the extra content. The problem is that many of these extra features are still present in the game even if you don't buy the DLC but the player can't interact with them, and given these features often change the way the game plays this essentially means that a player who doesn't buy them is playing a now incomplete product. I think this is going too far.

 

I don't, however, see this as an issue if Paradox publish Deadfire, since Obsidian would be in charge of their own DLC policy. As far as I can tell, the only issue with Paradox publishing Deadfire is if they pull another price hike pre-sales.

 

 

Notice that I said "with their grand strategy games": that means I am referring to their grand strategy games i.e. Crusader Kings 2, Europa Universalis 4 and Hearts of Iron 4. I am not referring to Tyranny, since it is not a grand strategy game, nor indeed any other games that Paradox has developed or published*.

 

Europa Universalis 4 is their most successful grand strategy game, and has the largest amount of DLC, hence why I used it as an example. It is, however, entirely representative of their DLC policy for all their current grand strategy games. You could switch anything I said about EU4 with CK2 or HoI4 and the statements would remain true.

 

What you did was talk about the DLC in broad terms so that I would respond, and then try to norrow into a specific game in order to force a statement into my mouth so you could refute it and make me look like an idiot. It doesn't work like that.

 

 

No I didn't. You'll notice the first line of my post, and the fact that the main contents of the post followed "@Wormerine": I wasn't addressing you at all. I have zero interest in making you look like an idiot.

 

As I stated above, I was specifically talking about their grand strategy games, of which EU4 is the biggest. You then claimed that my language was inaccurate and reflected marketing lies, which is demonstrably false when it comes to Paradox's grand strategy games. I pointed this out to you, with the example of EU4 (but both CK2 and HoI4 have similar examples) and you claimed you were talking about a Tyranny DLC, which might very well be the case but you were replying to my post which was about their grand strategy games.
 

Even in one of your own posts at one point you said "The problem is that many of these extra features are still present in the game even if you don't buy the DLC but the player can't interact with them"...when talking about Paradox's strategy game DLC's.

 

 

Yes, I know. I wasn't saying their policy was good. However these features are new features. They are present in the base game after the patch that goes with the DLC is released. They aren't features that were cut from the original product during development.

 

Anyway, feel free to reply, but don't expect a response. I don't see any purpose to further conversation with you on this topic.

 

*Technically I could be referring to their older grand strategy games, but those all came out before the age of DLC.



#68
Katarack21

Katarack21

    Chief Eldritch Abomination of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2098 posts
  • Steam:Katarack21
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

Yes, but your post wasn't about that specific game. I can talk about Paradox's DLC policies regardless of which branch of their games your discussing because their largely the same in broad strokes company-wide; I can't talk about any specific issues with any specific DLC that I haven't played.

 

Here is my post, quoted in full:

 

I can see there's no convincing you Katarack, so I won't bother trying.

 

@Wormerine: with their grand strategy games Paradox has, I think, gone too far with their non-cosmetic DLC. Often these DLCs add new features to the game which, if you don't buy them, you don't have access to. This in itself isn't a problem per se, after all I don't think anyone would complain about the fact that people who didn't buy the White March expansions didn't get the extra content. The problem is that many of these extra features are still present in the game even if you don't buy the DLC but the player can't interact with them, and given these features often change the way the game plays this essentially means that a player who doesn't buy them is playing a now incomplete product. I think this is going too far.

 

I don't, however, see this as an issue if Paradox publish Deadfire, since Obsidian would be in charge of their own DLC policy. As far as I can tell, the only issue with Paradox publishing Deadfire is if they pull another price hike pre-sales.

 

 

Notice that I said "with their grand strategy games": that means I am referring to their grand strategy games i.e. Crusader Kings 2, Europa Universalis 4 and Hearts of Iron 4. I am not referring to Tyranny, since it is not a grand strategy game, nor indeed any other games that Paradox has developed or published*.

 

Europa Universalis 4 is their most successful grand strategy game, and has the largest amount of DLC, hence why I used it as an example. It is, however, entirely representative of their DLC policy for all their current grand strategy games. You could switch anything I said about EU4 with CK2 or HoI4 and the statements would remain true.

 

What you did was talk about the DLC in broad terms so that I would respond, and then try to norrow into a specific game in order to force a statement into my mouth so you could refute it and make me look like an idiot. It doesn't work like that.

 

 

No I didn't. You'll notice the first line of my post, and the fact that the main contents of the post followed "@Wormerine": I wasn't addressing you at all. I have zero interest in making you look like an idiot.

 

As I stated above, I was specifically talking about their grand strategy games, of which EU4 is the biggest. You then claimed that my language was inaccurate and reflected marketing lies, which is demonstrably false when it comes to Paradox's grand strategy games. I pointed this out to you, with the example of EU4 (but both CK2 and HoI4 have similar examples) and you claimed you were talking about a Tyranny DLC, which might very well be the case but you were replying to my post which was about their grand strategy games.
 

Even in one of your own posts at one point you said "The problem is that many of these extra features are still present in the game even if you don't buy the DLC but the player can't interact with them"...when talking about Paradox's strategy game DLC's.

 

 

Yes, I know. I wasn't saying their policy was good. However these features are new features. They are present in the base game after the patch that goes with the DLC is released. They aren't features that were cut from the original product during development.

 

Anyway, feel free to reply, but don't expect a response. I don't see any purpose to further conversation with you on this topic.

 

*Technically I could be referring to their older grand strategy games, but those all came out before the age of DLC.

 


Talking about "their grand strategy games..." and talking about "Europa Universalis 4" are not interchangeable...one is very general and broad category, one is a specific game with it's own very specific issues. You can't generalize between the two. I can discuss Paradox's DLC's all I want; I won't discuss the specifics of a game I haven't played. This is called "not talking about **** I don't know". It's pretty basic. You should try it.


"The problem is that many of these extra features are still present in the game even if you don't buy the DLC but the player can't interact with them"

"However these features are new features. They are present in the base game after the patch that goes with the DLC is released."

Those two statements directly contradict each other. Either they are there in the base game regardless of whether you buy the DLC but not accessible, or they are added when you by the DLC. It literally *can't* be both. It is either already there, or it is not already there. It's present, or it is not present and get's added. It definitively, objectively, *literally* cannot be both.



#69
Lotti Fuehrscheim

Lotti Fuehrscheim

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 43 posts
  • Location:Groningen, NL
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

"The problem is that many of these extra features are still present in the game even if you don't buy the DLC but the player can't interact with them"

"However these features are new features. They are present in the base game after the patch that goes with the DLC is released."

Those two statements directly contradict each other. Either they are there in the base game regardless of whether you buy the DLC but not accessible, or they are added when you by the DLC. It literally *can't* be both. It is either already there, or it is not already there. It's present, or it is not present and get's added. It definitively, objectively, *literally* cannot be both.

Usually a DLC is accompanied by a general patch that adds the DLC features to the code, while the DLC purchase unlocks the content.

 

This has the very large advantage that there is only one code base for all DLC combinations.

 

So the base game before the new release doesn't contain the new features, after the release it does, but is not activated.

 

You shouldn't be so certain in your assertions when you don't know how it works. That doesn't give a smart impression.
 


Edited by Lotti Fuehrscheim, 02 July 2017 - 08:32 AM.

  • Sakai, Wormerine and Occursus like this

#70
kierun

kierun

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 31 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

duty_calls.png

 


  • FlintlockJazz, Karkarov, Flow and 7 others like this

#71
Katarack21

Katarack21

    Chief Eldritch Abomination of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2098 posts
  • Steam:Katarack21
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

"The problem is that many of these extra features are still present in the game even if you don't buy the DLC but the player can't interact with them"

"However these features are new features. They are present in the base game after the patch that goes with the DLC is released."

Those two statements directly contradict each other. Either they are there in the base game regardless of whether you buy the DLC but not accessible, or they are added when you by the DLC. It literally *can't* be both. It is either already there, or it is not already there. It's present, or it is not present and get's added. It definitively, objectively, *literally* cannot be both.

Usually a DLC is accompanied by a general patch that adds the DLC features to the code, while the DLC purchase unlocks the content.

 

This has the very large advantage that there is only one code base for all DLC combinations.

 

So the base game before the new release doesn't contain the new features, after the release it does, but is not activated.

 

You shouldn't be so certain in your assertions when you don't know how it works. That doesn't give a smart impression.
 

 

That literally does not impact anything that I said in any way at all. You shouldn't be such a pretentious snob when nothing you say impacts the debate. It's completely immaterial.

The base game contains the features which are simply being unlocked. The DLC doesn't add anything, neither does the update. It's all features that are already in the game. So despite already knowing how DLC's work, it doesn't change the fact that *none of the DLC's add new content because this DLC doesn't involve any new content*. Only the expansion is adding new content. That being the case, you pointing out how DLC's operate is pretty meaningless. It's like explaining how gas engines operate to explain fuel to somebody whose driving a diesel engine---good information but not applicable.


Edited by Katarack21, 05 August 2017 - 09:24 AM.


#72
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    (12) Mage

  • Members
  • 1934 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

We get it Katarack, you hate DLC, did you really need to bring this thread back after a month of inactivity to tell us this again?


  • kierun and draego like this

#73
Quillon

Quillon

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 494 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

So apparently Obs won't participate in gamescom according to rpgwatch. Which is disappointing as well as a sign that european based Pdx won't publish the game, I think.



#74
Katarack21

Katarack21

    Chief Eldritch Abomination of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2098 posts
  • Steam:Katarack21
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

We get it Katarack, you hate DLC, did you really need to bring this thread back after a month of inactivity to tell us this again?

That's what we call a "strawman". I never said I hate DLC; I said I hate certain specific practices of companies.

And I didn't resurrect the thread, keirun posted on Jul 2nd, and a few people have "liked" my comments over the last couple days. I saw it at the top of the page, is all. Then clicked my notifications, clicked into the thread to see what had happened, and saw the response to me which I hadn't noticed at the time. All I did was respond to something that had been said to me directly and which I hadn't noticed until the thread was brought back. And I did so with a substantive post making actual points; it was a legitimate response to a statement made directly to me.

There's nobody here forcing you to care, to respond, to make statements, or to interact with the thread at all. If you don't like it, don't care about it, or otherwise aren't engaged in it, there's a really simple solution: don't post.

It's really easy. There's dozens of threads I don't read and don't post in. Give it a try.


Edited by Katarack21, 05 August 2017 - 02:07 PM.

  • esyvjrt likes this

#75
daven

daven

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 44 posts

Angriest guy ever!


  • kierun likes this

#76
Katarack21

Katarack21

    Chief Eldritch Abomination of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2098 posts
  • Steam:Katarack21
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Angriest guy ever!

 

giphy.gif






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users