DOT Damage, DR, Might, Crits/Graze and Intellect Interaction

[Livegood118]

Hi all,

 

I was just wondering whether someone can clarify how DoT Damage, DR, Might, Crits/Graze and Intellect interact in the latest patch? The conclusions from various versions of the game appear to be inconsistent.

 

For instance, if someone could help me understand a practical example:

 

A level 16 Chanter with 50% brisk recitation chants the Dragon Thrashed, the Dragon Wailed (50 slash/50 fire base damage, 8 sec base before added linger time from +int) vs an enemy with 6 Slash DR and 8 Fire DR. What would be the difference in total damage done if:

 

Scenario 1: The Chanter has 18 Might, 14 Intellect and lands a crit

Scenario 2: The Chanter has 15 Might, 19 Intellect and lands a graze

 

I understand the damage is done through 3 seconds ticks and that there is a remainder tick, but beyond that there seems to be different evidence to suggest that each tick works vs .25 DR or there's a sum total approach (e.g. Damage vs DR, then this is the sum that is divided in to ticks over time and there are functionally no independent DR checks per tick as it has been resolved at first instance).

 

Questions for bonus points:

 

– If the total DR of the enemy increases by +2 after the second tick of the DoT, how will the total damage be effected in the first scenario?

– If the Might and Intellect of the Chanter increases by +2 after the second tick of the DoT, how will the total damage be effected in the second scenario?

 

PS. Do +%elemental damage talents work with DoTs yet? ^^

 

PPS. Do +%enemy type damage talents (e.g. vs vessels) work with DoTs?

Edited August 6, 2016 by Livegood118

[Loren Tyr]

There are actually two types of DOT, which work somewhat differently. The most common is the ApplyOnTick type, which has a base value specified per tick in advance. For example, Necrotic Lance inflicts an ApplyOnTick of base 10 Corrode damage per tick for base 5 seconds (plus the additional Corrode damage dealt directly, but that's separate and not relevant here). Duration is modified in the normal way by Intellect, damage per tick is modified in the normal way by might (but not by creature or damage type specific modifiers). Each tick is reduced by 0.25 DR of the relevant type. Crits and grazes only change the duration, not the base damage per tick. There are also ApplyOverTime DOTs, for which the total damage is determined when the effect is first applied (eg. Wounding Shot, Enduring Flames) and this gets divided across the relevant number of ticks. These primarily differ in how the amount of damage per tick is determined, beyond that they are mostly the same (0.25 DR per tick, crit/graze changes duration only).

 

Dragon Thrashed etc. is two ApplyOnTick DOTs of base 10 damage per tick; this would become 12.4 per tick at 18 Might, dealing 10.9 Slash and 10.4 Burn damage per tick against 6 Slashing / 8 Burning DR. Crit/graze again only affects duration, though like intellect this only affects the Linger part. So total duration should be (recitation duration) + (base linger duration) x (INT multiplier) x (graze/crit multiplier). 

 

As for the additional questions: damage is computed per tick, so if Might or DR change in between ticks this will affect subsequent ticks; eg. if Might goes from 18 to 20 and DR from 8 to 10, the damage on the next (full) tick will be 10x1.3 - 10/4 = 13 - 2.5 = 10.5. Changing intellect doesn't affect anything though, as the duration of the effect is set when it is initialized.

[Livegood118]

Wow thanks for the great explanation. It seems to me like they could have reached a mathematical solution on this that wasn't so needlessly complicated and confusing to the player (I love this game all the same tho not gonna lie).

 

Only one thing confused me:

 

Dragon Thrashed etc. is two ApplyOnTick DOTs of base 10 damage per tick; this would become 12.4 per tick at 18 Might, dealing 10.9 Slash and 10.4 Burn damage per tick against 6 Slashing / 8 Burning DR. Crit/graze again only affects duration, though like intellect this only affects the Linger part. So total duration should be (recitation duration) + (base linger duration) x (INT multiplier) x (graze/crit multiplier). 

 

Shouldn't total duration be:

 

recitation duration + base linger duration + (base linger duration x INT multiplier - base linger duration) + (base linger duration x graze/crit multipler - base linger duration)?

 

My understanding was that crit effects were always additive - e.g. they affect the base rather than compounding other effects. So, for instance, Annihilation on a 2-10 damage weapon would only ever increase the physical damage portion of a crit from 1 to 5 rather than taking in to account +damage modification.

 

The decision to make ticks work vs .25 DR is kinda strange to me but I guess they had to reach something arbitrary so that DR could play a role in the equation.

 

Consequently, it seems to me that the value of the Dragon Thrashed is quite diminished, though it is ultimately still a good skill. 

 

Vs a higher DR enemy 20 slash/20 fire at 22 Might and 20 Intellect level 16 Chanter on an ordinary hit would do:

 

Duration = 4 + 4 + (4*1.5 - 4) = 10 Seconds

DamagePerTick (Slash) = (10*1.36) - (20*0.25) = 13.6 - 5 = 8.6

DamagePerTick (Burn) = (10*1.36) - (20*0.25) = 13.6 - 5 = 8.6

Total damage (Ordinary Hit) = 8.6*3.33 + 8.6*3.33 = 28.64 + 28.64 = 57.28

Total damage (Crit) = 8.6*4 + 8.6*4 = 34.4 + 34.4 = 68.8

 

Actually, now that I think about it, that's not bad at all for a massive AoE that can be triggered and stacked every four seconds (and this is for enemies with unusually high DR). Given that Dragon Thrashed works over a larger AoE than Barbarian Carnage I'd say that vs larger groups of mobs the chanter may actually be putting out more damage than a Barbarian.

 

A Dragon Thrashed hit vs a Dragon with 30 DR, 22 Might and 20 Intellect:

Duration = 4 + 4 (4*1.5 - 4) = 10 Seconds

DamagePerTick (Slash) = (10*1.36) - (30*0.25) = 13.6 - 7.5 = 6.1

DamagePerTick (Burn) = (10*1.36) - (30*0.25) = 13.6 - 7.5 = 6.1

Total Damage (Ordinary Hit) = 6.1*3.33 + 6.1*3.33 = 40

 

I would say somewhere between 15 DR to 30 DR and with less than 3 enemies is the point where Aeyfalluth Mys Fyr becomes the much better option. On my Chanters before I switch to a big damaging spell I always quick switch to that anyway for the extra free 1.25 boost.

[Loren Tyr]

+X% damage modifiers are indeed additive and graze/crit just count as -/+ 50%, so if you graze with a Fine weapon and have 18 Might, the overall percentage would be 15% + 24% - 50% and you'd end up with a 0.89 multiplier. For duration however, graze/crit is multiplicative with all other modifiers. The latter is generally just Intellect, but if there are others there are added together and then multiplied by graze/crit. For example, if a 12 INT Fighter crits you with Knock Down (base 5s) while you are wearing Belt of the Stelgaer (0.66 Prone duration), you will be down for (1 + 0.1 - 0.34) x 1.5 x 5 = 5.7 seconds.

 

The 0.25 DR is indeed a bit arbitrary, though I suppose they had to pick something. Would perhaps have made more sense to scale it to add up to 1 over the total number of ticks (though that would actually end up higher per tick for short DOTs, of course). It does still does a nice amount of damage though, that's certainly true. Whether you'll outdamage Barbarian Carnage though... it's a bigger area, but the Barbarian is likely to be hitting more often than once every 3 seconds and with more damage per hit and potentially with additional effects on hit. 

 

Whether Aefyllath would do more would depend on a number of factors but not necessarily DR. Keep in mind that lashes, including the one bestowed by Aefyllath, are also decreased by 0.25 DR (this is independent of percentage, ie. Flames of Devotion also gets 0.25 DR; adding Intense Flames counts as a second lash, though). Dragon Thrashed will scale with number of enemies, Aefyllath with the number of hits and (pre-DR) weapon/spell damage. So the latter would also start to scale with number of enemies if you're using AOE attacks or spells (or other multi-hit attacks, eg. Driving Flight, beams). Works well with Barbarian Carnage actually; or Chillfog, paradoxically . 

[Livegood118]

Very interesting. Thanks for clearing that up.