Wondering about Dark Side Options

[DarthDeven]

In Kotor 2,there's an option to choose that Revan chose to follow the Dark Side and kept the Star Forge so
1)the star forge is intact
2)Revan relocates back to Korriban
3)The Sith win the battle of the Star Forge
4)Revan is proclaimed Dark Lord of the Sith
5)Revan uses the Star Forge to produce an immense fleet
and Revan dissapears few months later
the question is
where the giant fleet went?this is probably the hardest question
why the political body of the sith doesn't exist anymore even if the sith navy wasn't destroyed?
why the sith don't have some world left or stronger influence since the Republic is too weak after the Battle for the Star Forge and Dodonna is dead?the sith controlled thousands of worlds on the peak and they should able to hold,even with their civil war

[Tale]

For KOTOR 2, it's established that Revan's motivation isn't conquering the galaxy for a Sith Empire, it's strengthening the Republic. Even in his worst acts, he's only trying to make the Republic stronger to prepare for a worse war.

 

Revan disappearing into nowhere with a dominant Sith force outside his guidance isn't really going to be feeding into that agenda. Perhaps he took it with him to confront the true Sith. Or he would have disbanded and betrayed it.

 

And regardless, nobody was strong after the Jedi civil war. Sure, he could build a giant fleet with the Star Forge, but he wouldn't have anyone to actually man the dang ships. That was kind of a major point of KOTOR 2. The events and wars of KOTOR 1 were so disastrous that everyone was still weak. The Jedi were nearly wiped out by it.

[DarthDeven]

For KOTOR 2, it's established that Revan's motivation isn't conquering the galaxy for a Sith Empire, it's strengthening the Republic. Even in his worst acts, he's only trying to make the Republic stronger to prepare for a worse war.

 

Revan disappearing into nowhere with a dominant Sith force outside his guidance isn't really going to be feeding into that agenda. Perhaps he took it with him to confront the true Sith. Or he would have disbanded and betrayed it.

 

And regardless, nobody was strong after the Jedi civil war. Sure, he could build a giant fleet with the Star Forge, but he wouldn't have anyone to actually man the dang ships. That was kind of a major point of KOTOR 2. The events and wars of KOTOR 1 were so disastrous that everyone was still weak. The Jedi were nearly wiped out by it.

no,Revan's motives were 

1)test the republic if it was strong enough to stand against the sith

or 

2)replace it with his own empire if it the republic was too weak

the republic was falling and before Bastila captured Revan,The Sith were conquering hundreds of worlds and were unstoppable due of Revan's intellect unmatched and the best republic officers followed him

the sith after Kotor 1 if Revan was Dark Side were powerful enough to attack the core worlds.and had the manpower to use all these vessels

the sith troopers were trained in masses in the conquered worlds.but after five years their numbers are like very limited and went into hiding for no reason

even if the sith civil war decimated their numbers,they would still have a considerable number,and the civil war happened several months after Revan left,Bastila confirms this by saying that Revan feared that what he remembered about the unknown regions could threaten his power in the galaxy,but she doesn't explain nothing about the huge fleet,just barely mentions the star forge that devoured the sith lords who tried to control it and thinks that Revan  never wanted for anyone else except himself to use the star forge

the republic should be nearly non-existent if Revan was DS because

1)half of the republic fleet was destroyed and one of the best admirals died

2)the elder jedi tokare died

3)The Infinite fleet would have crushed instantly the republic because Revan disappeared several months after the Events of Kotor 1 and had the time to use it

4)the sith were in greater numbers than the republic

5)the jedi order was crippled

 

[Albion72]

It depends how much post-KOTOR 2 lore you want to consider (and by that I also mean how much SW:TOR lore you want to accept). 

 

If I recall correctly, that novel explained it by saying that Revan and Malak were under the control of the Sith Emperor and he was using them to weaken the Republic for his eventual invasion.

 

If you don't want to consider that true, then you have more freedom/flexibility in interpreting Revan's motives. 

 

In my opinion: 

 

LS Revan won the Mandalorian Wars, discovered the true Sith in the unknown regions, sought out the Star Forge because perhaps he thought it would be useful in defeating the true Sith, but the Star Forge corrupted both Revan and Malak. Following Revan's capture and mind-wipe, he helped defeat the still corrupted Malak and destroy the Star Forge because he remembered more and more about its Dark Side nature and how it corrupts, but he still hadn't recovered all of his memories regarding the true Sith. A little bit of time after the events of KOTOR 1 and he remembers, then leaves to fight the true Sith on his own, not wanting to drag the Republic along with him because of how weak it was. 

 

DS Revan, like LS Revan, won the Mandalorian Wars, discovered the true Sith, then sought out the Star Forge and fell to the Dark Side. He is captured by Bastila but throughout KOTOR 1 remains Dark Side, keeping the Star Forge intact. He remembers the true Sith and sees them as a) a threat to his rule, b) a potential ally, or c) only their leadership as a threat. So perhaps DS Revan takes the Star Forge and any Sith remnants with him to fight the true Sith, either to eliminate them, or to eliminate their leadership and install himself as their emperor so that he can then lead those forces back against a still weakened Republic and finish them off for good. 

[Qistina]

Actually it is something that the devs themselves never actually calculated, they just establish something for KotOR 2 background story that must be linear, it actually don't make any sense at all

 

If i am Revan and Dark Side, i don't even care about the Republic, i have an unlimited fleet and connection with the lost Infinite Empire, i sided with The One, i can rebuild an Empire stronger than the "true Sith" whatsoever, and it's my own empire

 

if i am Revan and light side, i will urge the Jedi order to take action, reshaped the Republic, warn them of a new threat. Of course it is I who started the recent mess but I am the one who saved everyone from the Mandalorians, no one can say anything about it, if it is not because of me, everyone speaking Mandalorian now. If the Jedi order is still the same, then i leave, i don't care anymore, let them face the threat

 

But in KotOR 2 background, there's suddenly a Sith master that can eat planets, undead Sith and mysterious Sith come out from nowhere...it's totally new story that detached from the original, but try to connect it by Revan retcons

[Albion72]

Actually it is something that the devs themselves never actually calculated, they just establish something for KotOR 2 background story that must be linear, it actually don't make any sense at all

 

If i am Revan and Dark Side, i don't even care about the Republic, i have an unlimited fleet and connection with the lost Infinite Empire, i sided with The One, i can rebuild an Empire stronger than the "true Sith" whatsoever, and it's my own empire

 

if i am Revan and light side, i will urge the Jedi order to take action, reshaped the Republic, warn them of a new threat. Of course it is I who started the recent mess but I am the one who saved everyone from the Mandalorians, no one can say anything about it, if it is not because of me, everyone speaking Mandalorian now. If the Jedi order is still the same, then i leave, i don't care anymore, let them face the threat

 

But in KotOR 2 background, there's suddenly a Sith master that can eat planets, undead Sith and mysterious Sith come out from nowhere...it's totally new story that detached from the original, but try to connect it by Revan retcons

 

I'm fairly certain that Darth Nihilus, Sion, and Traya were born from the Mandalorian Wars/Jedi Civil War, so it fits with the established lore of KOTOR 1. Malachor was the battle that made it possible for force wounds to be created in the first place, and both the Exile and Darth Nihilus were a result of that battle. 

 

When Malak is defeated it is the Triumvirate (Traya, Sion, Nihilus) that pick up the splintered remains of the Sith that were under Revan. Obviously neither of these three lords has the Star Forge so it can be assumed that even if Revan remained Dark Side he took the Star Forge with him wherever he went. 

[Qistina]

Of course they all are the product of Mandalorian War, but where are they during Revan and Malak reign? So 10 years after the Republic crushed or saved, suddenly they are all appear, Nihilus eating planets, undead Sith doing what he's doing, Traya searching for the Exile...it doesn't make sense...it is all in 10 years after, i mean not during Malak reign

 

All we got is the Exile say "i have been away since Mandalorian Wars", Atton not really sure about anything and unreliable, Traya give her own version and retcons of Revan....and so on. See...KotOR 2 is actually detached, the only thing that linked the story is the Revan retcons.

 

If Revan going dark side we can see master Vandar dead when Admiral Dodona ship exploded, there no way he can escape, and those fleets are the whole Republic fleet, all are crushed. Republic is crushed.....but in KotOR 2 there are many Republic ships, master Vandar died at Katarr (or so i understand because Jedi Masters are all going there, the rest are hiding)...see, surely someone overlooked that because want to make background story linear for both light and dark Revan.

 

And so, Revan left the galaxy, for both light and dark, that's why everything is like it is now....that's to make anyone shut up about it and go on with the new story

Edited September 21, 2014 by Qistina

[DarthDeven]

Of course they all are the product of Mandalorian War, but where are they during Revan and Malak reign? So 10 years after the Republic crushed or saved, suddenly they are all appear, Nihilus eating planets, undead Sith doing what he's doing, Traya searching for the Exile...it doesn't make sense...it is all in 10 years after, i mean not during Malak reign

 

All we got is the Exile say "i have been away since Mandalorian Wars", Atton not really sure about anything and unreliable, Traya give her own version and retcons of Revan....and so on. See...KotOR 2 is actually detached, the only thing that linked the story is the Revan retcons.

 

If Revan going dark side we can see master Vandar dead when Admiral Dodona ship exploded, there no way he can escape, and those fleets are the whole Republic fleet, all are crushed. Republic is crushed.....but in KotOR 2 there are many Republic ships, master Vandar died at Katarr (or so i understand because Jedi Masters are all going there, the rest are hiding)...see, surely someone overlooked that because want to make background story linear for both light and dark Revan.

 

And so, Revan left the galaxy, for both light and dark, that's why everything is like it is now....that's to make anyone shut up about it and go on with the new story

Darth Nihilus if i'm not mistaken was a dark jedi in Malachor,but it wasn't a monster still,he was still a human,it was shortly after he and Sion betrayed Kreia that he had to encase his spirit in an armor

he originally was a jedi following Revan in the Mandalorian Wars,and woke up after the battle of Malachor,but he felt a sense of Void(he was like the Jedi Exile),he met another survivor but using the force he killed him and his hunger was no more,he felt bad,but he was 'whole' for a time,then he found Kreia,that taught him how to fill his hunger,but his conditions became worse and worse.

Sion was a marauder serving the Sith Empire of Revan then fled to Malachor when the empire fell into chaos

Kreia was a Sith Lord on Malachor teaching

T3 came back with the ship,was assaulted,then found by the Harbinger,tried to leave,shot again and got stuck between Peragus and Telos

it's only 5 years after

KOTOR timeline 

3961(end of mandalorian wars)

3959 (Revan and Malak come back as Sith lords,with Revan as the Dark Lord of the sith,start of the Jedi CIvil War,Founding of the Sith Empire)

3959-3957 (The Sith restablish Korriban as base and capital,restabilish the base in Malachor training assassins,The sith conquer 1\3 of the known space,Revan duels with Malak and cuts his jaw when he calls him soft,then shortly after Revan is Captured.Malak becomes the Dark Lord)

3956 (Revan's quest and possible return as Dark Lord,Malak dies LS:Fall of the sith empire)

3955 (DS:Revan leaves his sith empire)

3954 (the sith begin to fight each other,and the Sith empire falls)

3953 (the sith triumvirate takes control of the remnants of Revan's Sith Empire)

3952 (Darth Nihilus assaults Katarr and takes Visas as apprentice)

3951 (T3 comes back from the Unknown Regions,and the exile starts his quest)

that's how things went

The Exile was being searched both by the Sith and by Kreia,the first to kill him,the latter to destroy the first(and the force)

it's never mentioned that was the entire republic fleet,it can be assumed that was a large portion.

it makes more sense in KOTOR 2 for the republic being so weak and nearly non-present if Revan is DS,if Revan was LS the republic should be stronger.

you can ask questions about the mandalorian wars and that's optional,in KOTOR 1 it wasn't so explored aside from Canderous' stories.

yeah,the jedi masters are killed on Katarr anyway,but Vandar if i'm not mistaken it's not mentioned if Revan was DS

quite the contrary,the story was well explored,it explained well both the republic and the sith,it was attached to the lore

in the cut quotes

it seems that Revan himself,not Malak, ordered to bomb Telos in order to cause fear and show to the jedi that there will never be a safe heaven

so yes,that the only problem i've got with the game,but if Revan was there,there will never be a Kotor 2 in the first place,especially if he was DS.

i always wondered why Revan left Sith space if he had such a big empire,powerful,the Star Forge,Bastila as apprentice,he was pratically unstoppable

the giant fleet dissapeared,the political body of the sith,gone,the sith ranks completely reduced to a small jedi hunters community

i was impressed in KOTOR 1 how the ranks and the empire itself was very well done,a 'evil' version of the republic,but much more efficient

i wanted to see more worlds still controlled by the sith,that they are not gone,that they are still strong

like see Duro under control of the sith 

that's what i didn't like about KOTOR 2,but Darth Sion,Darth Nihilus were very well done.

 

Edited September 22, 2014 by DarthDeven

[Qistina]

the problem for KotOR 2 is still want to link it with Revan, i think the story can run fine without Revan at all...so far Revan is just a story from the characters we interact with...It somehow lessen the main character itself, overshadowed by Revan. You see, in KotOR1, Revan is a strong character, in KotOR 2, The Exile stand on Revan shadow

 

Of course we can link it all up the way it seems to be, but it doesn't make it is making sense...Revan left no matter LS or DS for me don't make sense at all. It makes everything he/she do is for nothing. it worsen when we know his/her fate in SWTOR

 

It is better if Revan didn't left, but The Exile have no way to reach him/her in the game, Revan is somewhere else doing his/her business, so KotOR 2 can focus and shine the new character...like DA2, Hawke is shining because DA2 is about Hawke and not The Warden (despite everything bad about DA2)

 

The problem is to create two possible outcomes, Revan LS and DS, that is why both is linear throughout the game...no matter if you choose LS or DS, the same thing being talked about Revan by companions, the world didn't change

 

For me, the triumvirate are over exaggerated...Nihilus eating all life and planets, Sion an undead Sith and Traya kill 3 Jedi Masters in one force strike (of course Palpatine do the same in Episode 3, it sucks)...it is all too comic to be digested by Star wars fan like me who watch the movie....KotOR 1 is closer to "Star Wars realism" than KotOR 2

Edited September 22, 2014 by Qistina

[DarthDeven]

Revan is the key character on all the plot is revolving around,the jedi civil war,the mandalorian wars,The true sith,all this mystery was good and exciting until TOR popped up
the triumvirate for me was a great idea,it symbolized each one the aspect of the sith that is their weaknesses
Nihilus (Hunger for power)
Sion (Wrath)
Traya (Betrayal)
yeah,the linear outcome is bad,but i guess there couldn't have been no other ways to do it,if Revan was DS and didn't left,the galaxy would have been under control of the Sith,and the exile would have been dead from the start or he would be just a random dark jedi under Revan's rule
in TOR,yes,it sucks,it's a complete huge mess
you don't get to see Carth,but Bastila gives you a short explanation on the sith empire
yeah,but remember that KOTOR 2 launched in the fall of 2004,and the movie was out in 2005,so it's a little impossible that they 'copied' the scene
please KOTOR 1 closer to realism than KOTOR 2?
Kotor 1 was all about Evil vs good and a plot of redemption,In KOTOR 2 is grey against everyone (plot of betrayal,wrapping around the entire galaxy)

Edited September 22, 2014 by DarthDeven

[Albion72]

You are also forgetting that before TOR was planned there was most likely going to be a KOTOR 3 in which both Revan and the Exile would be involved in the main plot. 

 

You aren't giving Obsidian enough credit. They did the best they could considering they aren't allowed to say if Revan was male/female or DS/LS. Its not like they had the resources to develop two completely different main stories, one in which the Republic is gone and the galaxy is controlled by the Sith and one in which the Republic is still around. 

 

Revan leaving to face an unknown threat added a great deal of mystery to the overall story and made me want to see what KOTOR 3 was going to be about, especially since I like the Exile so much. In fact, KOTOR 2 is the reason that Revan is as cool as he is in my opinion. Without KOTOR 2 he would be a lot less fleshed out and a lot less mysterious.

 

And I also disagree about the Exile being overshadowed by Revan. I think the Exile's story is far more intriguing, especially considering the Exile's decision at Malachor and return to face the punishment of the Jedi council. 

I'll agree that KOTOR 1 is closer to what the Star Wars movies are like in the sense of generic good vs. evil but I won't agree that it makes it better than KOTOR 2. KOTOR 2's story and atmosphere, at least for me, is far more believable and interesting. The galaxy is in tatters at the start of the game and it really shows from the conversations you have with NPCs throughout the game. 

[Qistina]

What i mean by "closer to Star Wars realism" is the characters in KotOR 1 are not over exaggerated...Malak is a normal Sith as any Sith in the movies, he didn't eat planets to start with, he just use Star Force tech to manipulate Force powers from dead Jedis to stay alive, that's as far as he do...it is acceptable. Darth Nihilus eating planets, killing everything that live on planets he visit, now that's over exaggerate...you see Darth Vader is the most powerful Jedi ever, he destroy a planet using Death Star...but Nihilus just suck all lives on each planets? Who is more powerful then?

 

And then we have an undead Sith, Sion...basically a decomposing meat bind together by the Force, not even human...as we can see in the movie the villain are still human (Grievous is a robot, but still...), but this Sion is no longer human, Nihilus is no longer human, 2 of the main villain in KotOR 2 are not human, so the way i see they both is a comic

 

In KotOR 1, Revan character is strong not because of his/her over exaggerate powers or unique qualities, he/she just a good strategist, the thing that being propagated about him/her is that, not hisher power, but his/her intelligent. Malak is his/her second, the opposite of Revan, ruthless and lack of subtlety, sometimes shows as coward. Both Revan and Malak are actually normal characters of their roles in standard Star Wars villain. The Triumvirate however are comically over exaggerated.

 

And so general Tobin talk about Nihilus, the way he describe Nihilus melodramatically..... but when we face Nihilus it is a laugh....Nihilus is supposed to be the one who rise up the ship from Malachor and bind it with the Force right? Isn't the ship should break up when he die? No need to blow it up....

 

Darth Traya is fine by me, a good character, i can say the best...but she can be better if not associated with two comic characters. She can stand alone as the main villain (or even a hero) without Nihilus and Sion

Edited September 24, 2014 by Qistina

[DarthDeven]

You are also forgetting that before TOR was planned there was most likely going to be a KOTOR 3 in which both Revan and the Exile would be involved in the main plot. 

 

You aren't giving Obsidian enough credit. They did the best they could considering they aren't allowed to say if Revan was male/female or DS/LS. Its not like they had the resources to develop two completely different main stories, one in which the Republic is gone and the galaxy is controlled by the Sith and one in which the Republic is still around. 

 

Revan leaving to face an unknown threat added a great deal of mystery to the overall story and made me want to see what KOTOR 3 was going to be about, especially since I like the Exile so much. In fact, KOTOR 2 is the reason that Revan is as cool as he is in my opinion. Without KOTOR 2 he would be a lot less fleshed out and a lot less mysterious.

 

And I also disagree about the Exile being overshadowed by Revan. I think the Exile's story is far more intriguing, especially considering the Exile's decision at Malachor and return to face the punishment of the Jedi council. 

 

I'll agree that KOTOR 1 is closer to what the Star Wars movies are like in the sense of generic good vs. evil but I won't agree that it makes it better than KOTOR 2. KOTOR 2's story and atmosphere, at least for me, is far more believable and interesting. The galaxy is in tatters at the start of the game and it really shows from the conversations you have with NPCs throughout the game. 

i praise Obsidian for the excellent work on KOTOR 2 that is far better than KOTOR 1,but it drops the ball in the KOTOR 1 outcome effects

because it leaves so many questions that aren't answered. 

like those seen in my Original post

i understand that they couldn't develop two different stories,but that's not what i was asking

i was asking for the sith to be stronger in the DS version or weaker in the LS

but the republic is still in the same condition regardless

i would have done

the republic is in critical condition.even if the Sith empire weakened due of the dissapearance of Revan,they still hold lots of the worlds conquered and have now the strength to wipe out the jedi due of the republic getting desperate losing ground

or

the republic is in trouble,even though the sith nearly disbanded after the battle of the Star Forge,the Triumvirate decides to reunite the remnants to attack the jedis