Mystic Theurge base class

[ramza]

The idea of the Mystic theurge as a spellcaster that can use both arcane and divine spells is pretty interesting. However, I do not like the way it is implemented in the Mystic Theurge as a prestige class. Thus, I have been thinking of ways of tweaking it and making it a base class.

 

My only prob is to not make this class overpowered.

 

Just a few forewords:

Being a generous DM, I have upgraded the Mystic Theurge prestige class in some ways (when one of my players wishes to take levels in that class):

His Hitdie is d6, he can wear light armor at best when casting spells, and has a medium BAB progression. I shall get my inspiration from this template rather than the official Mystic Theurge prestige class.

 

Concerning the base class I wish to create:

 

I want it to reflect the ability to cast both arcane and divine spells. The drawback would it be that all spells are learned through scrolls and that the Mystic Theurge needs to have both high INT and WIS ability scores.

 

I have some choices here:

 

1) Have 2 different spell progression tables (one for each type of spellcasting ability) or keep just a single progression table?

 

2) How far should the Mystic Theurge's spell progression go? Should he be able to go all the way to 9th level spells? Personally, I would prefer letting him use 9th level spells.

 

3) How many spell uses should he get? If there are two different tables, should they be similar to the cleric and the wizard's respectively (4 spell slots max for each spell level, for a total of 8 spells per spell level when adding together arcane and divine magic)? If there is a single table, should he get a max of 6 spell slots per spell level?

 

For the rest: d6, high will save progression, 2 skill points per level, medium BAB progression, light armor and simple weapons proficiency, ability to cast spells in light armor, no other feats or special abilities.

 

Any comments are welcome. Cheers.

[Bloodsail Admiral Orodoth]

Hey there. If you would like some help in finding a way to base your class as a devine/arcane spell caster, check out this website I found. The clas is simply called "Witch"

 

http://www.woldiangames.com/oshirr/classes/witch.htm

 

The character is able to cast both spell sets, with some pluses and minuses added to it. My wife played a Witch in the last campaigne I ran, and I can say that this class when done right, is a power house. Hope this helps you out :D

[ramza]

Hi,

 

Thanks for your reply. The Witch class seems quite interesting. I see it uses one single spell progression table and uses either WIS or CHA as the main spellcasting ability score (whichever is higher). Unfortunately, I am looking for a way to create a character than can cast both high level arcane and divine spells just like a lv40 wizard/cleric would do (20 levels for each class).

 

The problem is balance. First, I have to remove any special abilities and bonus feats (including familiars and domain spells). Secondly, I have to see what the Mystic Theurge, as a prestige class, achieves to do. On a level 20 basis, we can have a lv5 wiz/ lv5 cleric/ lv 10 mystic theurge. Thus, the character would be able to cast spells as a 15th level wizard and a 15th level cleric at the same time. How do I make up for the remaining 5 levels if I want to make a Mystic Theurge base class?

 

1) Remove any special abilities and feats the character might get from the 5 levels in both the wizard and cleric classes.

2) Make it hard to learn and cast high level spells: all spells must be learned through a spellbook and the character must have very high INT and WIS, thus hampering his other ability scores.

 

Here come other balance issues. Are the cons enough or should I put some more limits?

 

1) Should the base class be able to cast both 8th or 9th level spells? Are the cons strong enough to justify the use of 9th level spells?

2) How many spells per day should he be able to cast? Should he have two spell progression tables (both the wiz and the cleric's), thus making for a min of 4 spells per day per spell level for each spellcasting "class"? Is this too much? Should I make a single progression table where any spell can be learned with a limit of 6 spell slots per spell level?

[Darque]

You left off the fighter's BAB and Monk's Saves....

 

In all seriousness, as a base class, this is overpowered... you might consider just using the dual class variant.

[Bloodsail Admiral Orodoth]

One way you could justify the ability to cast up to 9th level spells, would be to have a limited selection. Have the player pick from a much smaller list of spells than what the players handbook has (or other reference your using), maybe have the spells predetermined, with a medium amount of spells per day, but maybe 2 to 4 spells per spell level (also similar to a battlemage template I found and can show you) Or just play as the witch class and call it a warlock in all seriousness, you may be on to something, but I agree with the above post, this class is progressing towards being over powered. Unless of course, you play/DM like I like to play, in magic rich environs with the PCs being much stonger than the average adult of their race. After all, they are heroes of sorts... well.. most of 'em anyhow.

[H]

3) How many spell uses should he get? If there are two different tables, should they be similar to the cleric and the wizard's respectively (4 spell slots max for each spell level, for a total of 8 spells per spell level when adding together arcane and divine magic)? If there is a single table, should he get a max of 6 spell slots per spell level?

Single table, 4 spell slots per level.

[ramza]

[quote name='H

Edited April 22, 2009 by ramza

[Darque]

Are you familiar with Heroes of Horror? (I think that's the name of the book)

 

There's a "mage-like" cleric in there, who's class name eludes me (Archivist, maybe? I'll have to look it up)

 

That might give you some additional insight in how to make your class.

[ramza]

If I remember well, an Archivist is like a cleric but learns spells by copying them on a spellbook instead of them being granted to him by the gods. Moreover, he has less combat capabilities.

 

So, unfortunately, this doesn't help much. Thanks anyway.

 

Would my class be overpowered if I just granted it four 8th lv spells for both arcane and divine magic? That would simply be (3+3) 6 more spell slots than the average wiz/cleric/mystic theurge build...

[ramza]

Ok, I have found a reasonable compromise:

 

Hitdie d4, 2 skill points per level, low bab, high will save, simple weapon and light armor proficiencies, arcane spell failure applies normally.

Gets 2 separate tables: that of the cleric and that of the wizard (with the same spell progressions). Each table is tied respectively to his Wis and Int ability scores. All spells are learned through scrolls and must be copied in a spellbook.

 

The Mystic theurge doesn't get any other special abilities or features (no familiar, no bonus feats, no domains, etc).

[cronicler]

Can you post the base stats for Xwizard/YCleric/10MT? Byw which book is MT is in?

[ramza]

Mmmm, let's see...

 

The version of the Mystic Theurge I am suggesting is just like a wizard in terms of base stats (with the addition of light armor proficiency). Instead of having bonus feats and a familiar, he will have one additional spell table (that of the cleric). Moreover, he will have to learn his divine spells just like a wiz, and he will also need to have a high Wis score (19 if he wishes to cast 9th level spells). He won't get spontaneous healing nor domains.

[cronicler]

No i mean can you list the progression at lvl 20 for the base class. ( And I can't find that p. class anywhere. Which book is it from?)

[ramza]

There is no official base class for the Mystic Theurge. You can find the prestige class in the SRD (you can make a google search).

 

Concerning the spell progression tables, just copy paste the wizard's table and the cleric's table. My variant mystic theurge has 2 tables, but also has to spend points in both INT and WIS in order to keep casting spells.

[cronicler]

5W / 5C /10MT

 

BAB: 10 (+1 every other level)

Fort: 8 (+1 at 3rd, 5th, 8th, 10th, 13th, 15th, 18th, 20th levels)

Ref: 5 (+1 every 4th level)

Will:15 (+2 Will every 3 levels)

HP 5d8+15d4 (60Hp average. a uniform d6 will give an average of 70HP, but thats not too much by itself tbh.)

Skill Points 2 per level

 

Armor Prof. Light

Armor Prof. Med

Armor Prof. Heavy

Shield Prof.

Weapon Prof. Simple

Aura

Turn Undead

Sponteneous Casting

Scribe Scroll

Summon Familiar

Bonus Wizard Feat

 

Spells:

0- 6C, 4W

1- 6C, 4W

2- 6C, 4W

3- 6C, 4W

4- 5C, 4W

5- 5C, 4W

6- 4C, 3W

7- 3C, 2W

8- 2C, 1W

9- 0C, 0W

 

I am not sure if you want to give him the full casting power of 20 wizard and 20 cleric or the minimum option of 17th level spell caster. I will continue this after your input.

As a base class I see this class as one that is dedicated to learning instead of crusading, who channels the divine to aid. (d4 to d6, Maybe drop the Medium and Heavy armor profs?)

Edited May 15, 2009 by cronicler

[ramza]

Well, I will post the stats of the Mystic theurge class I am envisioning. For the purposes of comparison with your build, I will post the stats for a 20th level Mystic Theurge:

 

BAB: 10/5

Saves: Fort 6 / Ref 6 / Will 12

HD: d4

Skill points: 2 per level

 

Armor proficiency: light

Weapon proficiency: simple

 

Spells:

0- 6C, 4W

1- 5C, 4W

2- 5C, 4W

3- 5C, 4W

4- 5C, 4W

5- 5C, 4W

6- 4C, 4W

7- 4C, 4W

8- 4C, 4W

9- 4C, 4W

 

So, no domain spells... The Mystic Theurge also needs a spellbook in order to cast spells, so no spontaneous casting and he also needs to copy all the spells he wished to cast from scrolls. Moreover, in order to cast 9th level spells, the Mystic Theurge base class needs at least 19 Int and Wis, while a Wiz/Cleric/Mystic Theurge combo just needs 17 Int and Wis.

 

Just a note: in my house rules, all the core classes have received a moderate boost. More specifically, wizards get one bonus feat every 3 levels instead of every 5. Clerics get a bonus feat every 5 levels. In the light of these updates, I find it acceptable for a Mystic Theurge to be able to cast 9th level spells.

[cronicler]

Hmm, you have taken away the sp. casting, familiar, domain spells, med and heavy, shields, Turn undead, and the bonus feat...

 

I would suggest 1 level of armored arcana in level 5-7 range and shield prof at 13 or so...

I don't see why he shouldn't get a familiar. If my vision of him as a searcher, seeker of knowledge is correct, then I would suggest something mischievious and curious in nature, such as a magpie or maybe a tiny elemental, clockwork

Also as you say that you boosted the normal classes a bit, I don't think it is unreasonable to keep sp. casting.

But then again it is your campaign, you are the final judge on balance

 

Now that I checked the saves and all, It seems you nerfed the saves a bit too.

Edited May 15, 2009 by cronicler

[ramza]

Thanks for your suggestions!

 

Actually, I have decided to remove any class abilities that get butchered up due to the multiclassing. For example, a wiz/cleric/mystic theurge combo will have a familiar and a turn undead ability worth of 5 class levels. It's better to get rid of those as there is not point of having a weak familiar or a weak turn undead.

 

But when I think about it, a Wiz/Cleric/Mystic Theurge still gets spontaneous healing for each of his divine spell levels (even when he levels up as a theurge). So, it might be a good idea to give this ability to the variant Mystic Theurge I wish to create.

 

I might as well give the Armored caster feat to the Mystic Theurge at first level. This should allow him to cast spells in light armor.

 

Cheers.