Deus ex Machina: the Will of The Force ...

[Rosbjerg]

I've been thinking a bit more (yes, it hurt, boom boom, and yes it is a dangerous thing) about what "Goodness" is. The whole incorporation -- i.e. manifesting into some "quintessence" or being -- 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well then you need to figure out what truth is as well .. since the answer you will arrive to is a subjective observation..

 

it never stops!!

[metadigital]

[snip my stuff]

Free Will or Fate? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... So where is the dilemma? God is both all-knowing and all-powerful, but he also follows certain rules that he built into human beings from the start. First of all, he allows us free will, which means that he didn't make a race of robots, because robots can never truly love their creator. God created children - people who would love him and follow his lead because they CHOOSE to, not because he forces them to. The true measure of "all-powerful" is in the ability to choose when to exert that power over others. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is what I was afraid of: spammed by a faith-over-fact fundamentalist.

Breifly, the problem is Evil, namely, how can Evil exist in the world, even as a consequence of free will. (It's called the Epicurean Paradox, just look back and I've linked to a good description.)

The paradox is that if we, as beings of free will, are free to choose ruin and not be "saved", then:

- if God is all Good than everyone should be saved, or else s/he isn't all-powerful or all-knowing;

if God is all-powerful, than these people could be saved, (redeemed), otherwise s/he ain't all-Good;

- if God is all-knowing s/he knew that these people would be "lost", therefore s/he is not all-Good or all-powerful.

There are various theodices that have been propounded by Christian thinkers over the years, but none will every untie that gordian knot.

 

... God is also all-knowing, but that doesn't mean that he is the one who pre-destines everything.  There is a difference between knowing what will happen and being the one who causes it to be so.  The paradox here is that God CREATED linear existance, meaning that our existance, the way that our lives start at one point and continue in a straight line until the end, is not the way that God exists.  He created that system but is not subject to it.  The paradox is that God is able to both exist in the present with us, in every single moment, down to the most infinitely tiny detail, while also existing in a large sense, outside of time, outside of the universe. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gibberish. If God has a will, and God knows everything, and is more powerful, then God is (for whatever reason, and self-actualisation is as good a reason as any; Isaac Asimov did a great short story about it) using mortals for an agenda. God might be a benevolent dictator, but God is still an autocrat. And Goodness is derived from the choice made to suffer for a higher purpose, not some other agent (God) making the decision for us, whether it is the right decision or not. Period.

Hurting your brain yet?  Well it should.  God shouldn't be something that we can explain rationally or intellectually, because if we could, we would be on the same level as God, and considering human nature, that would be frightening indeed.  I believe in God, and I worship him.  I do my best to follow his lead in everything I do, not because I understand everything he does or can explain everything about his nature, but because I DON'T understand and I CAN'T explain it all.  In order to have a relationship with our creator we must accept our role as his creation and accept that there are some questions we may never be able to answer. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it's quite simple and in no way difficult. Falling back on ignorance as the best reason for God's existence is sad. "We" don't have to accept anything. You may choose to, but my choice is not to. (That's a function of the liberalisation of faiths in Europe a couple of centuries ago: religious tolerance begets freedom to believe in none, or anything in between.)

As the Bible says - God does not have a beginning or an end.  Try as I might, I cannot wrap my mind around that, because I exist in linear time - my being cannot understand anything outside of that existance.  So I have decided to allow God to keep some of his secrets.  I'll find out some day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, you cannot wrap yourself around that because you aren't trying hard enough. Ever done mathematics? Heard of the concept of infinity? Well, you can do arithmatic on sets of infinity (infinity - infinity = infinity, for example). There is a further abstraction: infinity to the infinite power is a whole new concept. (Notionally called Aleph-1, after the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet.) So, no, it doesn't hurt my brain. I've read books on the four dimension, and imagined a fourth dimensional hypercube (I can draw one for you, if you like: if looses a lot in two dimensions, though. )

Your attitude would have kept the Catholic Church in charge of medicine, like it was around 1000 years ago, when the monasteries were teaching what Galen (a citizen of the Roman Empire) had hypothesised but couldn't prove, because the Church wouldn't allow human dissection. "Yes, the human skull must have two bones for the mandible, because the monkey does." It makes me sick to hear people say "don't try to work it out, because that mystery is God." Grow up. You're enjoying the fruits of technology, yet you are squeemish about the morality of knowledge. You really believe in the Tree of Knowledge being a bad thing.

Sorry to preach - just seemed appropriate for the thread

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not apporpriate.

Stop polluting this thread with your God-bothering opinions. I don't want every advocate of every different religion telling me why there faith is the one true faith, so why should I let you?

I know some poeple choose to believe -- that's why it's called FAITH. SCIENCE, on the other hand, is only interested in things that can be proved. Your ignorance of science does nothing to strengthen your case, so perhaps silence would assist you better.

 

Now, back to something more interesting ...

[metadigital]

I've been thinking a bit more (yes, it hurt, boom boom, and yes it is a dangerous thing) about what "Goodness" is. The whole incorporation -- i.e. manifesting into some "quintessence" or being -- 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well then you need to figure out what truth is as well .. since the answer you will arrive to is a subjective observation..

 

it never stops!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Truth is Good. Truth is The Force. I seek the total loss of the ego so that I might contemplate nirvana and become one with the single truth that is the music of universe. ... Well, yeah, I guess it is all subjective, but that's okay, because you lot are all a figment of my imagination, anyway ... "

[The Great Phantom]

Nah, I'm not Dutch... We Americans have big heads, too. Bush and Clinton have some of the biggest, but I digress.

 

I can understand you trying to understand the Force, but I think here we need to understand a few basics:

 

1. Star Wars is Science-Fantasy (I like that term... It fits).

 

2. Kreia ALWAYS lied.

 

3. The Force ties all life.

 

4. Kreia ALWAYS lied.

 

5. Normal physics most likely won't fit.

 

6. Did I mention that Kreia ALWAYS lied???

 

I think that what we need here is a combination of known theologies, with some classic old-school Star Wars sage-isms.

 

A. Luke: "Does that mean it controls me?"

Obi-Wan: "Partly, yes. But it also listens to your command."

 

B. Yoda: "Difficult to see, the future is. Always changing, it is."

 

C. Me: "I'll come back with more new-era sage-isms when I try out my druid character in NWN."

 

:ph34r:

[Rosbjerg]

I've been thinking a bit more (yes, it hurt, boom boom, and yes it is a dangerous thing) about what "Goodness" is. The whole incorporation -- i.e. manifesting into some "quintessence" or being -- 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well then you need to figure out what truth is as well .. since the answer you will arrive to is a subjective observation..

 

it never stops!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Truth is Good. Truth is The Force. I seek the total loss of the ego so that I might contemplate nirvana and become one with the single truth that is the music of universe. ... Well, yeah, I guess it is all subjective, but that's okay, because you lot are all a figment of my imagination, anyway ... "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well Nirvana is a state of mind, so you are already there .. but you are looking at the sun through a wall .. tear down the wall, close you eyes and truely see ..

 

but that won't really tell you what thruth is .. ^_^

[The Great Phantom]

I've been thinking a bit more (yes, it hurt, boom boom, and yes it is a dangerous thing) about what "Goodness" is. The whole incorporation -- i.e. manifesting into some "quintessence" or being -- 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well then you need to figure out what truth is as well .. since the answer you will arrive to is a subjective observation..

 

it never stops!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Truth is Good. Truth is The Force. I seek the total loss of the ego so that I might contemplate nirvana and become one with the single truth that is the music of universe. ... Well, yeah, I guess it is all subjective, but that's okay, because you lot are all a figment of my imagination, anyway ... "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It was funny. I was at the cafeteria, and I was telling all of my friends that for all they knew, they were just figments of my imagination. One or two of them call me idiots, and the others are all "But, I can feel me...", and I spin it and say that I'm a figment of my own imagination as well. Then, this one guy comes over, but he's not in our conversation at the moment. So, I continue and say, "Wait... That's confusing. If I'm a figment of my imagination, then how am I here?", being philosophical and junk. The guy (who usually only talks about the anatomy of males and females), says something along the lines of "No. Because, imagination is inspiration, therefore if you can imagine it, then it is reality." or something equal, only it was much longer and used bigger words that time has warped away.

 

Now, back on topic.

[Rosbjerg]

well in a manner of speaking everything you see *is* a figment of your imagination .. since all perceptions must go through the brain, and the brain works through symbology, what you 'see' is your brain interpretion of what's happening .. so who knows what really is going on?

[metadigital]

It was funny. I was at the cafeteria, and I was telling all of my friends that for all they knew, they were just figments of my imagination. One or two of them call me idiots, and the others are all "But, I can feel me...", and I spin it and say that I'm a figment of my own imagination as well. Then, this one guy comes over, but he's not in our conversation at the moment. So, I continue and say, "Wait... That's confusing. If I'm a figment of my imagination, then how am I here?", being philosophical and junk. The guy (who usually only talks about the anatomy of males and females), says something along the lines of "No. Because, imagination is inspiration, therefore if you can imagine it, then it is reality." or something equal, only it was much longer and used bigger words that time has warped away.

Now, back on topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

imagination = inspiration?

 

That just means the imaginer is inspired. It doesn't mean the imagined landscape is real. If anything it supports the the "fertile imagination" theory.

 

What is truly interesting about this story is that I have imagined that you have imagined that someone completely unexpected has spouted an incongruous philosophical exposition ... now that sounds like a dreamscape.

[metadigital]

well in a manner of speaking everything you see *is* a figment of your imagination .. since all perceptions must go through the brain, and the brain works through symbology, what you 'see' is your brain interpretion of what's happening .. so who knows what really is going on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

... Socrates!

[The Great Phantom]

Don't forget to mention the fact that your eyes invert the images they see in the first place.

[Rosbjerg]

SCIENCE, on the other hand, is only interested in things that can be proved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

just a note ..

 

Science is a matter faith just like any other religion! problem with it is that even though you "prove" something and all the test give you the same results 100 times in a row you can never be 100% certain.. you can only unprove a teory, you can never truely prove it .. so you have to believe like everyone else!

 

just a note ..

 

(I believe Einstein said that)

[Rosbjerg]

well in a manner of speaking everything you see *is* a figment of your imagination .. since all perceptions must go through the brain, and the brain works through symbology, what you 'see' is your brain interpretion of what's happening .. so who knows what really is going on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

... Socrates!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well the guy does have a point! :D

[The Great Phantom]

Wow, this discussion has become Rosberj and metadigital discussing philosophy with me trying to be heard in the background... :ph34r:

 

[metadigital]

I can understand you trying to understand the Force, but I think here we need to understand a few basics:

1. Star Wars is Science-Fantasy (I like that term... It fits).

2. Kreia ALWAYS lied.

3. The Force ties all life.

4. Kreia ALWAYS lied.

5. Normal physics most likely won't fit.

6. Did I mention that Kreia ALWAYS lied???

I think that what we need here is a combination of known theologies, with some classic old-school Star Wars sage-isms.

 

A. Luke: "Does that mean it controls me?"

    Obi-Wan: "Partly, yes. But it also listens to your command."

B. Yoda: "Difficult to see, the future is. Always changing, it is."

C.  Me: "I'll come back with more new-era sage-isms when I try out my druid character in NWN."

:ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. Fantasy still has to have referential integrity, or else we get nonsense:

J'Ermkilja attacks the Orc with his sword, when suddenly it turns into a pick pansie and eats his horse. Wihtout delay, J'Ermkilja eats the panie on a piece of toast.

 

It's just silly (they didn't invent toasters until the twnetieth century).

 

2. Kreia told me she wouldn't lie to me, just everyone else.

3. What about truly evil people; those that have consciously decided that they hate more than love and want to spread misery. Are they linked into The Force, too?

4. Did Kreia tell you that?

5. Can't accept that. Stephen W. Hawking's A Brief History of Time made a pretty reasonable case for the laws of physics being stable for any universe that might result as one like ours, and time would always go forward, etc. Besides, I don't mind if we superimpose a metaphysical superset on our familiar physics, just so long as it is systematic and consistent (referential integrity). If a fire gives off heat for Luke, then it must for Vader, too. Otherwise we just have a dream sequence, where no empathy is possible (I live in reality, even if you don't and if I feel that the characters are never in danger then I won't care what happens -- I have to perceive the danger, so it must be familiar to me).

6. What if Kreia is double-secret-probation-bluffing?

 

Agreed.

A. So it is a bit like the music of the spheres, where Force Sensitives have brought along their own instruments to join in with ...

B. This is the best argument for a multiverse. Or The Force may have a Will, but it is not the only influence in the Galaxy (nor, possibly, the strongest): Open Dualism.

C. You're crazy, Druids are just a class for NPCs to be weird and wonderful colourful ambient characters. "

[Rosbjerg]

Don't forget to mention the fact that your eyes invert the images they see in the first place.

 

Wow, this discussion has become Rosberj and metadigital discussing philosophy with me trying to be heard in the background... :ph34r:

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well I didn't comment on this because it actually had nothing to do with what I said .. things are inverted because of the way light travels into your eye, but I was talking about the brains deciphering of the information, through the filters of memory and symbols .. which means that what you see is your own reflection, or more correctly, your own interpretation of the events based on your own experiance/memories (which is a more advanced filter of symbols based on former interpretations)!

 

but feel free to yell in the background ..

[Sepp]

"Listen well." Her voice was warm and kind, and her breath smelled of spices grown in alien soil. "Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask is a trick. You will find no truth in me." She came close enough that her whiskers tickled his ear, and whispered, "Though you believe nothing else, you may rest your faith on this."

 

Vergere rocks. I meant to say, however, that neither did Kreia alway lie, nor is everybody in Star Wars necessarily Good or Eeeevil at heart.

 

 

Enter no conflict against fanatics unless you can defuse them. Oppose a religion with another religion only if your proofs (miracles) are irrefutable or if you can mesh in a way that the fanatics accept you as god-inspired. This has long been the barrier to science assuming a mantle of divine revelation. Science is so obviously man-made. Fanatics (and many are fanatic on one subject or another) must know where you stand, but more important, must recognize who whispers in your ear.

- Missionaria Protectiva, Primary Teaching

 

Yes I quote too much.

[metadigital]

SCIENCE, on the other hand, is only interested in things that can be proved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

just a note ..

 

Science is a matter faith just like any other religion! problem with it is that even though you "prove" something and all the test give you the same results 100 times in a row you can never be 100% certain.. you can only unprove a teory, you can never truely prove it .. so you have to believe like everyone else!

 

just a note ..

 

(I believe Einstein said that)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never said science didn't have an element of faith.

If a theory is disproved, then a new theory must be created to fit THE FACTS. I have faith in the facts. Facts don't change. (we get better at interpreting them, is all.)

If a religious truth is challenged, THE FACTS must be wrong. (The person is branded a heretic and burned at the stake.) Meritocracy versus theocracy; knowlegde, the key to betterment for all, versus dogma.

 

My faith in the laws of physics is constantly re-affirmed by the fact that we all don't fly off the surface of this swifty rotating ball of dirt, water and rock. Faith in God is a choice, and it does not require proof. (Pity about that Babel Fish.)

:cool:

[The Great Phantom]

I can understand you trying to understand the Force, but I think here we need to understand a few basics:

1. Star Wars is Science-Fantasy (I like that term... It fits).

2. Kreia ALWAYS lied.

3. The Force ties all life.

4. Kreia ALWAYS lied.

5. Normal physics most likely won't fit.

6. Did I mention that Kreia ALWAYS lied???

I think that what we need here is a combination of known theologies, with some classic old-school Star Wars sage-isms.

 

A. Luke: "Does that mean it controls me?"

    Obi-Wan: "Partly, yes. But it also listens to your command."

B. Yoda: "Difficult to see, the future is. Always changing, it is."

C.  Me: "I'll come back with more new-era sage-isms when I try out my druid character in NWN."

:ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. Fantasy still has to have referential integrity, or else we get nonsense:

J'Ermkilja attacks the Orc with his sword, when suddenly it turns into a pick pansie and eats his horse. Wihtout delay, J'Ermkilja eats the panie on a piece of toast.

 

It's just silly (they didn't invent toasters until the twnetieth century).

 

2. Kreia told me she wouldn't lie to me, just everyone else.

3. What about truly evil people; those that have consciously decided that they hate more than love and want to spread misery. Are they linked into The Force, too?

4. Did Kreia tell you that?

5. Can't accept that. Stephen W. Hawking's A Brief History of Time made a pretty reasonable case for the laws of physics being stable for any universe that might result as one like ours, and time would always go forward, etc. Besides, I don't mind if we superimpose a metaphysical superset on our familiar physics, just so long as it is systematic and consistent (referential integrity). If a fire gives off heat for Luke, then it must for Vader, too. Otherwise we just have a dream sequence, where no empathy is possible (I live in reality, even if you don't and if I feel that the characters are never in danger then I won't care what happens -- I have to perceive the danger, so it must be familiar to me).

6. What if Kreia is double-secret-probation-bluffing?

 

Agreed.

A. So it is a bit like the music of the spheres, where Force Sensitives have brought along their own instruments to join in with ...

B. This is the best argument for a multiverse. Or The Force may have a Will, but it is not the only influence in the Galaxy (nor, possibly, the strongest): Open Dualism.

C. You're crazy, Druids are just a class for NPCs to be weird and wonderful colourful ambient characters. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

1. True. I was just stating it.

 

2. Yet you believed her. Tisk, tisk... She manipulated you the whole way. That goes to show how honest she is.

 

3. Yes, hence the Dark Side of the Force.

 

4. Yes, via "Always. I have manipulated you from the beginning."

 

5. I was talking about Force push, Force jump, etc. The basic overlay (gravity, if you go into space w/ no mask you'll die, you feel heat and they feel heat) is BASICALLY the same, but can be changed via the Force, but only minorilly (ie, Force Jump, Force Breath or whatever Kotor II decided to call the common power).

 

6. Read #4.

 

B: It may be a multiverse, but we only need to focus on the 'here and now', or Kotor II and that UNIverse. Any other possibilities don't matter, because they're not considered Star Wars anymore.

 

C: I'm playing a Druid so I can become a Shifter in the next expansion. Really, I just can't wait to be moving onto BG I and II, and then 2 Icewind Dale, and then onto PS:T, and then (most hopefully) onto Kotor III.

[Rosbjerg]

I never said science didn't have an element of faith.

If a theory is disproved, then a new theory must be created to fit THE FACTS. I have faith in the facts. Facts don't change. (we get better at interpreting them, is all.)

If a religious truth is challenged, THE FACTS must be wrong. (The person is branded a heretic and burned at the stake.) Meritocracy versus theocracy; knowlegde, the key to betterment for all, versus dogma.

 

My faith in the laws of physics is constantly re-affirmed by the fact that we all don't fly off the surface of this swifty rotating ball of dirt, water and rock. Faith in God is a choice, and it does not require proof. (Pity about that Babel Fish.)

:cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

when you can't be 100% sure about something then you can't believe in it! since it's not a fact (using your logic here) .. my point just was that where others have a God, or Gods, to underline their belief, the scientific-one uses math and laws .. I don't trust your science, but I don't trust their God either .. But I can't trust myself either, since what I see is as much a matter of perspective as what all of you believe..

 

So what's left I wonder ... and that's when a sound from the back of my head calls "MU" out into the echoing silence ..

 

Yes Nietzsche was right .. God comitted suicide with that little logic trap!

[metadigital]

Don't forget to mention the fact that your eyes invert the images they see in the first place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The (US?) army did an experiment where they had some soldiers wear glasses that inverted what they saw. After a couple of days, the soldiers' vision adapted, and they no longer say the inverted images upsidedown. Then the testers took off the glasses, and their eyesight was inverted, again. It took a couple of days more for their perception to return to normal.

 

Socrates had some very bizarre theory about our perceptions and shadows cast on a cave wall, too. I don't think he wore glasses, though. They weren't invented until the latter part of the second millennium in Europe. (The Chinese are genetically predisposed to short-sightedness, so they never had a need to invent them, just kept sticking the page closer to their nose ...) :cool:

 

A fourth dimensional hyper-cube looks like a cube within a cube, equidistant from a common mid-point. now, connect the vertices of each cube, such that the outer cube vertices are connected to their closest vertex of the inner cube. Now you have a three dimensional rendition of the four dimensional object. In four dimensions, all the vertices (which look angled) are perpendicular.

[The Great Phantom]

I've had a look at the way the eyes reflect light. By the time it makes it to your nerves (2 the brain), the mirrors in your eyes have flipped it upside down.

 

What IS the 4th dimension, exactly???

[Rosbjerg]

Socrates had some very bizarre theory about our perceptions and shadows cast on a cave wall, too. I don't think he wore glasses, though.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just remembered, thought it was Socrates too, that was Plato!!

[metadigital]

[snippity snip]

1. True. I was just stating it.

2. Yet you believed her. Tisk, tisk... She manipulated you the whole way. That goes to show how honest she is.

3. Yes, hence the Dark Side of the Force.

4. Yes, via "Always. I have manipulated you from the beginning."

5. I was talking about Force push, Force jump, etc. The basic overlay (gravity, if you go into space w/ no mask you'll die, you feel heat and they feel heat) is BASICALLY the same, but can be changed via the Force, but only minorilly (ie, Force Jump, Force Breath or whatever Kotor II decided to call the common power).

6. Read #4.

B: It may be a multiverse, but we only need to focus on the 'here and now', or Kotor II and that UNIverse. Any other possibilities don't matter, because they're not considered Star Wars anymore.

C: I'm playing a Druid so I can become a Shifter in the next expansion. Really, I just can't wait to be moving onto BG I and II, and then 2 Icewind Dale, and then onto PS:T, and then (most hopefully) onto Kotor III.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Here here.

2. It was for my own good. And the good of Revan. The Force manipulated her into a twisted, hateful hag so that she would manipulate me into the biggest, bestest hero of the KotOR universe.

3. So The Force is Dark AND Light. (There is a Jewish sect dating from about BCE whose name I have forgotten :"> that believed in particles of good and evil making up the universe. Wasn't the nazarenes ... um, get back to it later.)

Nietzsche! Contrast: Good/bad vs. good/evil.

- Good/bad is tied to merit, bad is what is not good.

- Good/evil moral notions; moral evil has primacy: moral goodness is what is not evil. Moral evil results from an unconscious projection of hostility or hatred. A redefinition of meritorious qualities of strength, power, and vigor as appropriate objects of moral indignation

[metadigital]

Socrates had some very bizarre theory about our perceptions and shadows cast on a cave wall, too. I don't think he wore glasses, though.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just remembered, thought it was Socrates too, that was Plato!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, but Plato wrote all our Socratic stuff, so I think he kept the best bits for himself.

 

There is a belief held by a minority that Socrates didn't actually exist, he was just a safe rhetorical device, so that Xenophon and Plato didn't drink hemlock. :D

[Rosbjerg]

yes I know .. but it was Plato who said such about 'the cave' .. so just for the record I wanted to correct us both .. before someone else did!