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Hi all, Was just doing some sums re: the Monk class and thought I'd ask for peoples' views. My main question is as follows: On a dual wielding Monk build that uses a lot of lashes, is it worth the hit in terms of recovery time to take the Vulnerable Attack Talent? Assume following build 18 (25 Adjusted) 16 10 (13 Adjusted) 16 9 9 Sanguine Plate/Durgan Purgatory/Durgan Resolution, under effects of Swift Strikes (with lightning strikes) and Frenzy. Also let's not pick Scion of Flame to keep the maths simpler. Without Vulnerable Attack our recovery modifier is: 1.15 (Durgan) * 1.15 (Durgan) * 1.33 + 20 = 1.96 (See Kaylon's attack speed 2.0 Topic). With Vulnerable Attack our recovery modifier is: 1.76 Damage multiplier = 1.45 (Might) + 1.45 (Superb) + 1.2 (Savage Attack) + 1.15 (Sneak) = 2.25 Base Damage Multiplier Modified Sabre Base Damage: 29 – 43 (Rounded to nearest SF) My understanding of how lashes work is that they do not take in to account damage penetration and are calculated off the modified base damage dealt by the weapon before DP/DT are taken in to account. SO, lets assume a Monk has 7 wounds, the target's damage reduction is 16 for all types of damage and we roll a hit with our median damage amount (36). With Vulnerable Attack: Base Damage: 36 Physical Weapon Damage: 36 vs 16 DR (-5 Vulnerable Attack) = 25 Turning Wheel Lash: 35% of 36 vs 4 DR = 8 Weapon Lash (Corrode): 25% of 36 vs 4 DR = 5 Lightning Strikes: 25% of 36 vs 4 DR = 5 = 43 30/45 Attack Animation + Recovery. 45*0.24 = 11 30 + 11 = 41 41 @ 13 Dex = 41/1.09 = One Attack every 37 frames (do we add +4 frame universal recovery here?) Without Vulnerable Attack 38 Damage Total (Only thing modified by -DR is the Physical Weapon Damage) 30/45 Attack Animation + Recovery. 45*0.04 = 2 30 + 2 = 32 32 @ 13 Dex = 32/1.09 = One Attack every 29 frames (Again, do we add +4 frame universal recovery here?) So we have: 43 damage every 37 frames (Vulnerable) or 38 damage every 29 frames (No Vulnerable) LCD of 37 and 29 = 1073. Easier way to make the damage comparative is to make it per second, so 30 frames = 1 second. Vulnerable = 30/37 * 100 = 81.08%, 43*0.81 = 34 Damage per second Without Vulnerable = 30/29 * 100 = 103.45%, 38*1.0345 = 39 Damage per second Conclusion/Further Thoughts 1. Given that damage for lashes is dependent upon modified base damage before damage penetration is in taken in to account, and that a Monk Build such as the following is likely to be within the wound range/scenario with Frenzy I've highlighted quite often, it appears as if the +20% additive recovery modifier added by Vulnerable Attack is more of a hinderance than a help. Even with Swift Strikes (1.15*1.15*1.25 = 1.65 recovery mod) rather than Frenzy I believe this would still be the case as Two Weapon Style affects recovery mod linearly - i.e. it will be the same in most cases. 2. It's interesting what happens when you throw the Gloves of Swift Action in to the mix with Vulnerable Attack (1.15*1.15*1.15*1.33 - 1.20 (two weapons) +1.20 (Vulnerable Attack) = 2.02, no recovery). Vulnerable Attack might be worth it with the gloves, however before I started doing the sums I actually completely forgot about the Monk Raw Wound damage gloves (2% raw damage Lash per wound). It then becomes a decision between -100% Recovery + Vulnerable Attack vs -95% Recovery + Raw Wound Gloves. With 6 wounds and an average hit of 36 the gloves will add 4 damage, 10 wounds they'll add 7.2 damage. Given that instead of vulnerable attack your monk might be able to take Scion of Flame instead to increase damage without any kind of corresponding penalty this may be preferable (and a defence buff vs fire). Or, if you want to go full offence in your talent Choices without any defensive talents at level 16 you could go: Savage Attack Two Weapon Fighting Sneak Attack Weapon Focus Lightning Strikes Lesser Wounds Vulnerable Attack Scion of Flame and forego the Monk Gloves for the Gloves of Swift Action, -100% recovery and -5 Damage Penetration from vulnerable attack. SO: I would say that under the circumstances I've described above (Sanguine Plate, Durgan Weapon, Durgan Weapon) that Vulnerable Attack is not worth it unless you also have the Gloves of Swift Action, which will increase your recovery modifier when using Vulnerable Attack from -76% to -102%. (1.15*1.15*1.15*1.33 -.20 +.20 = -102%). This extra consistency, not dependent on wounds, comes at the cost of a talent point (and maybe another char could benefit from those gloves) and a theoretical lower max damage than what would have been available with your monk gloves had they been walking around in really high wound ranges. – A point in to Heart of the Storm might make more sense than vulnerable attack. Let's say you have a lightning lash weapon and lightning strikes on at the same time, that's 2 lashes vs 25% DR. Assume you hit for the average of modified 36 base against an opponent with 16 DR. 36*.25 = 9*1.2 (Heart of the Storm) = 10.8 - 4 = 6.8 *2 = 13.6: ordinarily this would have done 10 damage without Heart of the Storm and you get a -5 permanent lightning resist in exchange. – I am not certain how Torment's reach factors in to this and everything I've said may have been wrong when this is taken in to account. As a Full Attack torment's reach has no recovery between the two hits, which means that the penalty from vulnerable attack matters much less.