Dehumanizer

... the "restore the cut ending" petition has just gone past 2000 signatures. I still doubt it will make a difference, but...

I have an ATI 9800 Pro, and while the game has been quite stable for me, Dantooine was unplayable until I disable Vertex Buffer Objects, as has been suggested both here and by LA. Oddly enough, I am replaying KOTOR 1 and have the *same* problem on Dantooine. I hadn't had that problem the first time because I had a GeForce4 Ti4400 then. My question is: in addition to making the game playable, what does disabling VBOs do? Does it make the game uglier? Disable some nice effects? Just curious...

That's not a "real" update, it just fixes the PDF manual for the international versions.

I can see why you may believe that, but it's not true. I believe the ending should be improved; you disagree, that's fine. ShadowPaladin (for instance) argued with me, I argued back, stating my thoughts. There's nothing wrong with that, is there? It's called "having a discussion". People offer arguments and counter-arguments. And I don't think "LA is the devil", although I think that what they did in this case was absolutely wrong - KOTOR2 would have been one of the best RPGs in years, if not the best, if only they had allowed Obsidian a couple more months. It's still a great game, but there are traces and hints of something so much better...

A rules lawyer is more than that. It's someone who is obsessed with every little detail of the rules, to the detriment of everything else, including the story and the enjoyment of other players. And as to "writer ignoring everything the character has done and accomplished to the this point in order to tell their whack job story", two points: - first, that's not what you wrote in all your other posts. What you complained about was that it wasn't right for a "uber-stats" party member to automatically be defeated by the final boss for plot reasons, when stats-wise he could probably win. That's a "rules are everything" attitude, if you ask me. - second, if you don't care about the writers' "whack job story", why are you playing their game? Maybe you are really looking for a different kind of game... nothing wrong with that, of course. Hey, I didn't call you a "bad roleplayer". You just have different tastes from mine - or those of KOTOR's (1 and 2) authors'.

I agree with you, which is a bit scary. Of course Obsidian doesn't hate anyone, and they are probably as much aware of the game's shortcomings as anyone else... if not more. Now (here's where we'll disagree again), their silence is probably because the rushing of the game is Lucasarts' fault, and Obsidian are bound by contract not to say anything bad about LA. Nor can they talk about patching plans or release patches themselves - I'm betting the contract says only LA can approve a patch, or even decide whether one is released at all. As to moderators, yes, they should be here at least to move spoilers to their proper place.

Which is another reason I think LA saw it and went <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sure it wasn't complete - they needed more time. My guess is that it went something like this: Lucasarts (LA): Hey, people, Christmas is almost here. We must have the final version for duplication in 2 weeks. Obsidian Ent. (OE): Two weeks? But... we're in the middle of implementing the ending. It's one of the most emotional endings ever seen in a game, involving the many combinations of stories for the player and the party members. Can't you delay it a bit? We only need a month or two, then it will be the one of the best games ever. LA: Read my lips: Christmas. Release. It's in the contract, *we* decide the release date, remember? Christmas means more money, whether it's a "good game" or not. Scrap that ending, make something in two weeks, then we'll ship. OE: Damn... What can we do in 2 weeks? Maybe a couple of mostly empty levels with generic enemies, then a couple of static images, and an ending which is so vague that it can fit anything... This is my guess. I may be wrong, of course, but it seems to fit everything we know so far.

Couldn't agree more.

More or less, yes. Some people paid for the Xbox game, others for the PC. It was fairly clear that both would be the same game, it'd be pretty unfair to change that later on just because some people are unhappy with it. Well unless you want to handle refunds and trade in Xbox version for the PC version. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You know that that philosophy is one of the main parts of Communism, right? (I'm KIDDING! don't take that one seriously, OK?)

So, if some are screwed, let's screw everyone just to make it fair? Besides, there's one thing called X-Box Live. It can't be used for bug fixes, but it *can* be used for additional content. Next thing, you'll tell me that not every X-Box owner has Live, so, again, let's screw everyone. But, hey, KOTOR 1 had additional content on Live, hadn't it?

So you believe that bug fixes are OK, but additional content for a game is always wrong? Hey, I'm not saying that they should release a "restored ending patch". Not when "free expansion" or "bonus pack" (with not only the ending, but maybe an extra planet) sounds a lot better.

I disagree. Rules serve the game, and the story, not the other way around. But I can see that I'll never convice you otherwise, and it's OK. Let me tell you, though, good think that we don't play P&P RPGs in the same group - you're sure to be what is called a "rules lawyer". (see http://sy.cowiki.org/566.html ) But I did answer. You asked what I'd think if I got to the end and just died, I answered that I'd call it bad writing, but a game doesn't necessarily have to have a "happy ending".

It's a known bug. If you ever forfeit a race, it will always say, after that, that you didn't finish. Either go back to a saved game before you forfeited the first time, and don't do that again, or wait for the patch.

I agree. I've been making some noise about the real ending, not because I dislike the game, but the other way around - I love it, it's in many ways a masterpiece, and deserves to be finished, instead of being another Lionheart. Still, congratulations, Obsidian. As game designers / writers, no one else comes close.

The ending is played, not just a movie or something, you know... it's the final part of the game.

"No if it was left out it was done for a reason." It's called "Christmas". "Just because bits of unused material are left over does not make it the real ending. It may have been an ending that was started and abondoned for whatever reason." If the released ending sucks and seems patched up at the last minute, while the other one looks brilliantly written, guess which is probably the "real" one? "So rather the question should be should the ending you could cobble together from left over files be restored because it has no legitimacy as the real ending because you dont know if it was or not." Unofficial mods will surely exist. But the poll is about *Obsidian* being allowed (by LA) to finish their own game. Call it a "free downloadable expansion" if they want to (*cough* Trials of the Luremaster *cough*). I doubt it will happen, but...

For info, see: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=30398 http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=29764 http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html?fromint=1

I don't mean, in a fight between the party and the boss, the final blow being from a party member. I mean in a battle where the player isn't fighting. For instance, in KOTOR 1, when Bastila fights Malak (it was Malak, right? Or his number 2? I don't remember) one on one, telling the player to get away, and the door closes. What if the player had done every single sub-quest in the game and Bastila was *really* powerful, stats-wise? Should she just defeat Malak then and there? You probably think so, I don't - the plot calls for her to be captured, so that's what should happen. Game rules and stats are not reality, but an approximation. Should Luke have had to hit Vader in RotJ several times, because there was no way to take away all his hit points just by hitting his lightsaber? I'd call that bad writing. But *good* writing should be more important than the CRPG rules or stats. Some games do have unhappy endings, no matter how you play, BTW.

Nope your wrong , totally wrong couldnt be more wrong if you tried. What I want is a story that RESPECTS the reality of the game not just makes stuff up because the writer thinks its a good idea. If Atton sacrificed himself on Koriban so you could escape, that would respect the reality of the game. He's buying you time to get away. You know you cant defeat Sion at that point your not strong enough, and neither his he. But he's doing it so you can continue. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry, but I disagree, again. You keep insisting that: - any battles in the game must follow the rules, be "real" battles instead of scripted ones - it's perfectly OK for a party member to defeat the main boss if his stats are enough to do that - the writing is less important than stats, and writers should never "take control", but instead remain subjected to them I can't agree with those. The rules of the game aren't perfect, and, as many have said, break down at higher levels. But that should NOT cripple storytelling, IMHO. Besides, we're getting away from the point of this thread, aren't we?

ShadowPaladin: don't take this in a bad way, but it seems that you want the game to be driven by stats, not story. You want the game to be mostly about turning your party into an invincible force, defeating everything in their path, until they reach the final boss, defeat him, game over. In other words, you want an Icewind Dale or, dare I say it, a Diablo, instead of something like PS:T or KOTOR 1. Nothing wrong with that, but KOTOR 2 should be - and is - story-driven, like the first game. Maybe, as Obi-Wan would say, "this is not the game you're looking for". Have you played Lionheart? The first half of the game was nice, using the SPECIAL system from Fallout, having a nice plot, interesting NPCs and such. The second half of the game, however, is just a huge dungeon where nobody talks to you, everything attacks you, all the social skills you improved in the first half are useless. Everything about it screams "release it now, who cares if it's finished". KOTOR 2 isn't as bad, but it's similar. I believe that there will be patches to fix the scripting / ATI / stability bugs, and that's good. I also believe that there will be fan mods which restore most of the ripped-away ending - maybe with voices in a black background, or even some generic animations while the characters speak. But that will never be half as good as what Obsidian could do if they were allowed to finish their game. THAT's what I want, and what I think we should fight for.

Sorry, but I can't agree with you. Story is what matters - many fights in the first KOTOR didn't follow the rules, but were scripted as well. Would you want the game to end halfway because Bastila could beat Malak by herself? Apparently, you would. It seems that you didn't pick your signature ironically, that you really prefer these kind of games to be "roll playing" instead of "role playing". KOTOR 2 needs the "correct" ending. It's almost as bad as Lionheart (remember that one?). And the bugs fixed, too - the scripting ones, and the ATI ones, for instance.

As we know, a lot of content, especially at the end of the game, was removed from KOTOR2, and replaced with a much worse and more vague ending. If you haven't seen it yet, see this thread: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=29764 . Even Gamespy has mentioned it; see http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html?fromint=1 . Also, the game is quite buggy at the moment, much more than the first KOTOR was at release. The problems with ATI cards (try getting through Dantooine) are, IMHO, inexcusable. While I believe there will be a patch or two, eventually, in order to fix the worst bugs, the removed content should certainly be re-added to the game. Not only because it's frustrating to go through an engrossing game with fascinating characters to get an "ok, let's put all the toys back in the box" rushed ending, but because it represents the worst about the current state of the industry - a game which could be marvelous, but which isn't, because the suits in charge ordered the game released in time for Christmas, no matter how unfinished it was. This isn't Obsidian's fault, IMHO, but Lucasarts'. Bioware could delay KOTOR until it was ready, but this is Obsidian's first game, so they probably had no voice in the matter. So, I believe it's time to do something. But what? I have a couple of suggestions - they may help, or not, but they surely can't make things worse. This is not simply about TSL (although each of us would do anything to have the game as it was meant to be), but about not putting up with rushed Christmas releases any more. Suggestions: 1- sign the online petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/kotor2/ . It will probably make little to no difference, but it's easy and quick, and maybe they'll listen if they see a huge number of signatures. 2- email Lucasarts themselves, asking for a finished game. Be calm and polite, not rude, but say that the game *really* needs to be finished, that it will be a stain on Lucasarts' reputation in the future if it's not. Say how it may affect your purchases of LA products in the future. Say that Obsidian has created a work of art which will be remember as one of LA's best products ever (and affect future sales), if only it is finished. 3- snail mailing LA would probably be even better, as it's very easy to filter a huge number of email messages before they reach anyone who matters. You can find contacts for Lucasarts here: http://www.lucasarts.com/contact/ 4- any more suggestions?

As we know, a lot of content, especially at the end of the game, was removed from KOTOR2, and replaced with a much worse and more vague ending. If you haven't seen it yet, see this thread: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=29764 . Even Gamespy has mentioned it; see http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html?fromint=1 . Also, the game is quite buggy at the moment, much more than the first KOTOR was at release. The problems with ATI cards (try getting through Dantooine) are, IMHO, inexcusable. While I believe there will be a patch or two, eventually, in order to fix the worst bugs, the removed content should certainly be re-added to the game. Not only because it's frustrating to go through an engrossing game with fascinating characters to get an "ok, let's put all the toys back in the box" rushed ending, but because it represents the worst about the current state of the industry - a game which could be marvelous, but which isn't, because the suits in charge ordered the game released in time for Christmas, no matter how unfinished it was. This isn't Obsidian's fault, IMHO, but Lucasarts'. Bioware could delay KOTOR until it was ready, but this is Obsidian's first game, so they probably had no voice in the matter. So, I believe it's time to do something. But what? I have a couple of suggestions - they may help, or not, but they surely can't make things worse. This is not simply about TSL (although each of us would do anything to have the game as it was meant to be), but about not putting up with rushed Christmas releases any more. Suggestions: 1- sign the online petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/kotor2/ . It will probably make little to no difference, but it's easy and quick, and maybe they'll listen if they see a huge number of signatures. 2- email Lucasarts themselves, asking for a finished game. Be calm and polite, not rude, but say that the game *really* needs to be finished, that it will be a stain on Lucasarts' reputation in the future if it's not. Say how it may affect your purchases of LA products in the future. Say that Obsidian has created a work of art which will be remember as one of LA's best products ever (and affect future sales), if only it is finished. 3- snail mailing LA would probably be even better, as it's very easy to filter a huge number of email messages before they reach anyone who matters. You can find contacts for Lucasarts here: http://www.lucasarts.com/contact/ 4- any more suggestions?