Lourent

Yeah, hmm. Maybe they couldn't make it work with a second PoE coming. I suppose you'd have to write two very different stories for one game. Well, I saw my Character as remaining a priest, but one who no longer viewed the pantheon of Thao's Artificial Intelligences as gods. I'm hoping the story will have room for a theistic priest who believes there's still a creator or creators out there. An outsider. As I see it the world would be ripe for an organic religious revival (old gods and new) if the truth were known and my Character would be part of that. I read Gene Wolfe's Long Sun novels twice, and there's a similar theme there.

We're going to have to agree to disagree as I don't want to hijack the thread for a debate. Been a pleasure though. Just wanted to share my reading of the story and voice my appreciation for it.

Thaos is willing to commit genocide and even worse things just to keep his religion only religion in world, by preventing people questioning Which isn't pro....He wants to use use his Artificial Intelligences to control.... He believes that those machines are gods, or at least close to god than anything can come and they are only things that keep world running as it is. For him they are center of religion, center of everything that he believes in. So I would argue that he is clearly pro religion. Close to gods isn't believing in gods. Believing they have immense power, isn't believing they're gods. He knows they're simply products of his science.

You should check your psychology, social psychology, behavioral science and philosophy books for example, before you make such claims. Quote a text-book that says they discovered that the American Slave trade is/was evil... You'll find that biology can allow us to be/do many things. And science can describe how we're capable of that range. However, saying which one of those things is evil/good isn't something science does.

Thaos is willing to commit genocide and even worse things just to keep his religion only religion in world, by preventing people questioning Which isn't pro....He wants to use use his Artificial Intelligences to control.... The whole point of this control was to smother all those icky religions because their diversity in practices and beliefs he felt to be the cause of what he deemed a disordered world. Knowing he can't flat out go to war with faith, he sought to narrow it and control it. There's no love for faith with Thaos. Only a means to skip a likely unwinnable war against faith while instituting his "order" upon the world.

In any event, I was just pointing out that Thaos isn't pro-religious. Nor did I see the story as atheistic propaganda. Ultimately one pantheon is all that is dealt with. The big question "is there still a god or gods" is left open. And no, I don't take Thaos' word for it.

That depends on your definition of “(un)reasonable.” Believing in a flat earth was a pretty reasonable thing to do in the past. But science hasn't/can't disprove gods. Finite creatures using finite tools.

Looking through my physics and bio texts, not seeing a list of good things and evil things. Science and the cold dumb universe doesn't care about race based slavery, pedophilia, etc. In fact, along with its many wonders it has also delivered us chemical, biological, and atomic weapons. Science don't care, so to speak. So, for instance, if we were to say the american slave trade was an evil, we're stepping outside of science. Saying this practice was wrong is superstitious. You have to have faith in its wrongness (its wrongness) as you can't measure its wrongness with scientific instruments. You could say, well, I subjectively opine that the american slave trade was wrong/evil. But that's like telling us your favorite color. I like red, you like blue, neither of us can be right or wrong in reality since this is subjective. You like the american slave trade, I don't, neither of us can actually be right or wrong since it's all subjective.

It's arrogance to sincerely look for evidence for a hypothesis and reject it when you have exhausted all avenues but definitely not arrogance to believe in things without any evidence that also go against reason and our experience. One more thing. I wouldn't call the belief in things without empirical evidence, arrogant. Good, evil, morally right and morally wrong. None of which can be measured under a microscope or through a telescope. But, I think nearly every member of kith probably believes that certain things are just "evil/wrong" in the moral sense. Even despite what the earthly authorities presiding over them might say. And if something like religiosity is a nearly universal feature of humanity/kith throughout history, how could it be unreasonable? Even from a clinical empirical atheistic pov, and not emotional, its near universality would suggest an adaption.

Just think of this. We know religion and theism most definitely pre-dated Thaos' super computers. Apparently widespread, as Thaos saw humanity's problems as stemming from the variations of religious practice and belief. The fear isn't that humanity/kith turns to atheism is he AI's true nature is discovered. But a golden age of religious revival . Old gods, new gods, etc.

Thaos isn't pro-religion, though. Not anymore than atheistic communist regimes who've reluctantly allowed the practice of a handful of religions so long as they had control and the final say, His people didn't use their science in order to create religion where there was only atheism before. No, religion and belief in god(s) were widespread. Faith was alive in the world. Pre-existing his Artificial Intelligences. Having decided that because their science couldn't measure god(s), therefore, they musn't exist, they felt empowered to order the world as they saw fit. If Thaos thought he could impart this order while having the people abandon their own god(s), to knowingly turn to his AI's, he would've had it so. But again, as stated along the way, religion (including theism) seemed to be an almost inherent feature of humanity/kith. Perhaps, realizing that despite how powerful his AI's were, an all out war against faith would be an uncontrollable disaster. Therefore, he (they) worked to shape what he couldn't destroy entirely. It's arrogant because they decided they must have had the right tools to measure a god or gods. And then take the failure of their tool, to measure something for which maybe it just isn't capable of measuring, as license to create powerful super-computer Artificial intelligences in order to get at least some kind of a handle on all those 'icky' religions that humanity/kith had been practicing.

Just finished the game, and loved it. Straight to the point, I'm a theist. Now to the topic, I won't speculate as to what the message was meant to convey, I'll only share what I took away from it. First of all, the game doesn't deny the existence of a god or gods (nor does it confirm their existence) in Eora's universe. The game deals with a specific pantheon of gods. Before Magran, Woedica, etc. there were other faiths, and the worship of other gods. Nor does the ending rule out that knowing the truth about this specific pantheon, humanity moves on to once again worshiping other gods. Or, to simply continue regarding the pantheon as gods, however it may have come to exist. Or, likely, some of both. So this isn't a story about how atheism is the natural state of man until some gods are very literally given existence. Therefore, forcing humanity to abandon some kind of natural state of atheism. What I saw was an ancient civilization that arrogantly concluded that because their 'science' couldn't measure god(s) they mustn't exist. Further, that they believed religiosity was the cause of the world's ills. But since religiosity and belief in god(s) was nearly universal, there could be little hope of convincing humanity to abandon faith....However, they could narrow down the multitude of faiths and gods to one that they created, with the virtues and aspects they concluded humanity had need of to fit their clinical view of 'order.' TLDR, arrogant atheists (because they couldn't find proof using their 'science') who looked down on everyone else (a multitude of faiths and beliefs) use 'science' to create Artificial Intelligences so as to at least control it. Can't wipe it out, control it type of thing. The truth at the end doesn't address if gods are real. Only that a particular set of gods are 'scientifically' created AI. More of a "trying to play god with science" story, actually.