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eubatham
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Posts posted by eubatham
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I think the ability description mentioned that shielding flames is for allies only. So the paladin is excluded?
Yup, this is correct.
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You're hated for this class seems unhealthy. Perhaps you should show your video with other classes fighting this class to prove your point better.
I didn't comment on the Paladin class, I commented on the video and that it's basically just about the scrolls than the class (ANY class). Feel free to share your point of view in the approriate thread, http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77839-are-paladins-really-not-that-bad/, instead of going off topic. And please, try to refrain from making things up, just to out your frustrations.
As for other classes, I'm quite sure I saw a fighter post a similar kill some time ago. I'll look for it later.
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This is the first time I've heard someone call kits like the Cavalier terrible. As said in the post before me, some things like multiclassing was broken. But I wouldn't simply compare all other classkits against the outliers. Overall, the Paladin had quite a few decent kits.
It's like saying any class that wasn't a Cypher before 1.05 was terrible.
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Looks more like a video about scrolls being really good than about an actual class's ability to take on an encounter.
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Wary defender is a very bad talent.
I know this is the Paladin thread, but you are completely wrong when it comes to Wary Defender. A free +10 deflection, +10 fortitude, +10 reflex and +10 will for one talent point is awesome.
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Paladin is *excellent* for its intended purpose. It is a tank. It can heal, "resurrect", buff the party with auras, and be virtually immortal. It is not a high damage class and expert players are able to make the higher damage classes tough enough, making the class less desirable amongst the more hard core players. Folks that just want to play the darn game once, casually, might love to have such a durable character that can bring the priest or mage back up mid fight. I have had one in several parties and there is not a thing wrong with it.
I'd like to see you bring people back to life that aren't full con barbarians or fighters, considering that the resurrect spell kills almost everyone once its initial effects wear off. Paladins have no single purpose, their abilities are unfocused and spread all over the place. Furthermore, its only real tanking ability is again from a level 1 talent that's given to all (PC) Paladins automatically. Its other class skills are downright bad compared to other classes, the only reason why you'd state that the Paladin is alright at support is if you never had a class like a Priest or Chanter in your group.
You don't need to play the game on PoTD to see just how lackluster the Paladin is. Sure, you can finish the game with a Paladin in your group, but is that really high praise when you can also finish the game with just one party member?
I really recommend you reading through threads like http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77839-are-paladins-really-not-that-bad/ before you'd reply again.
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Paladin's are fine as they are. Faith and Conviction (+Deep Faith) is a beast of a skill.
Faith and Conviction is an automatically learned skill at level 1, almost every ability you can spend class points on is close to terrible (unless you decide to run with no other buffing class in your group). Also, running at 3 con as a tank is nothing special. Con is a worthless stat for almost everyone in every roll.
And NPC Paladins? They don't even get Faith and Conviction.
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There are reasons to believe current MMO tank metagame is not something done on purpose, but rather caused by flawed AI. I believe developers said something like that about AI - that they wanted to work on it more. The wiki mentions a Fighter talent which makes his disengagement attacks stronger. I guess it was later removed when they realized there's no time to make AI good enough.
Nah, the tank "metagame" in most MMO's is a conscious design choice, not simply due to lack of advanced AI. The only "MMO" that I'm aware off where bad AI is part of the issues it's facing, is GW2. However, GW2 has so many mechanical problems when it comes to PvE that blaming it on just poor AI is mistaking the tip of the iceberg that's above water as the entire iceberg.
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Another way of looking at this is that Paladin lets you do away with a priest
). It's not a very good substitute, but that micro-intensive squishy can become really annoying after a while.I heavily disagree on that point. From a Priest's perspective, the Paladin is only capable of overlapping with a few of their abilities. The difference in quality and quantity when it comes to support is so large between the two classes, that the Paladin really isn't a substitute.
I really don't understand this hate against micro'ing. You can pause combat as much as you want and you don't need to (nor can you) spam spells every encounter. Considering that the Paladin has more per encounter abilities than a Priest, you might as well say that a Paladin requires more micro'ing if you're going to fire off abilities constantly.
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Zealous Focus is currently bugged to effect the entire group, so +6 accuracy can always be up at least.
I respecced my paladin without it to see what the other aura radius was... If I wanted to make a class that selfishly buffed themselves, I would've made a wizard who at least brought the CC and can get the same deflection/health/higher DR on demand as needed. Easier fights, the aura is unnecessary, in hard fights it only saves a priest or chanter one cast (least for Zealous Endurance/Charge).
Most people aren't arguing the Paladin is not "bad" but they're definitely not "good" in the current meta. It basically boils down to:
- Paladins don't "suck" but their abilities bring very little to want them in a group.
- They need bug fixes and stacking.
- Aura ranges are unreasonably small.
- Many of the Order specific talents are lame due to limited use or impact on the group.
- Faith and conviction bonuses for NPCs
In a bigger sense, the paladin has nothing to do but "tank" hence why it does seem decent at the role But I get the feeling despite the faith and conviction bonus on my wizard play through, that the easy fights dont need it, and the harder fights its all about buffs or food or prep anyway, so the paladin is kind of just there.
Not sure if the same is true for the other aura's, but save/loading in certain areas will cause your aura's (or at least zealous aura's) to permanently increase in size. I'm quite sure it's somewhere in Twin Oaks or the wilderness areas right before it.
About Paladins vs Chanters & Priests, I think the core of the issue is that Paladins are forced to compete with these classes. Almost every time you need to pick a class ability, the only option is to take a supportive ability that'll go head to head with one of the other two classes. You simply don't have a choice but to overlap, to then be outclassed, as a Paladin. The Paladin needs other ways to grow, ways that'll allow it to differentiate itself from the other support classes.
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At how many disposition points is a pala maxed out again? 3? Because I'm level 6 now and already at passionate 3 and clever 2.
The maximum is 3 per disposition, so in total 6.
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DoT stacking or not stacking is irrelevant. You don't use DoTs for the sake of it being a DoT. You use DoTs because it deals damage. Damage removes the opposition. Druids, Wizards, and Ciphers will remove the opposition faster than a Chanter (and at a much earlier level than 9).
Whether you believe it doesn't have an accuracy roll is irrelevant. It does have an accuracy roll. (and because it has an accuracy roll, giving them medium or large shields will also reduce its accuracy.)
Yes, Chanter is one of the best solo classes. Solo plays into their niche: long encounters
....but utilizing their niche in a party means the party wasn't very strong to begin with.
I'm not saying the Chanter is bad. That isn't my position. I'm just using the same logic some people use on other classes.
If certain people, who use this kind of logic, think someone else using it is irrational or misrepresenting the topic at hand when someone else uses it, then....
(not saying you do, but there are certain people in this thread that can't see their own reflection in the mirror)
Thank you for at least agreeing with me that defending aura's because "they're always active, even if they get overwritten" is pointless, because most fights don't take that long (because they aren't though). Like I said before; only for the harder (and longer) fights that are more rare (especially in the early game), buffs are important.
I do think you're focusing too much on one aspect of chanters though, while ignoring their excellent off-tank potential while passively keeping up strong buffs (via chants) during short fights. Not to even forget their powerful spells, that not only buff allies, but also paralyze enemies or distract them. While a certain play style might not be suited for every gamestyle, keep in mind that we're trying to gauge the overall potential of a class.
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For Reviving Exhortation, I find the key thing is that after the enemy has downed a companion all engagement they have to fear is gone as the enemies have moved on to other team members. In that way, usually after a Reviving Exhortation you can usually consider that companion "safe" for the time being (enemies now elsewhere), allowing them to start DPSing like crazy again. The fact that it's so little cost (per encounter as I mentioned) does make it extremely useful.
Despite the way that you explain how you use the ability, it still doesn't overcome my main hurdle, namely that it simply kills off anyone that you try to resurrects after it's short buff has expired, unless he or she has dumped quite a few points into Con and has a high base HP. Which significantly narrows the potential survivors.For the Priest spell, if you're referring to Armor of Faith (the only level 1 spell that does anything to damage thresholds), it actually offers 1 less DR and only lasts 15 seconds rather than a permanent whole battle buff. The radius is better, but honestly when using the Paladin's auras I've not noticed their radius to be that bad in most fights (it usually covers my entire party with a little positioning).
Make sure that you're not going off the wiki when it comes to priest spells, it's still quite out of date and uses older beta data. I was mistaken myself too, thinking that it was 5DR. But now that I have access to the game itself again, I can verify that my point still stands (though not 'almost double the DR'). It currently offers 4 DR ingame, vs 3DR from the aura. The duration is also base 30 seconds, compared to the documented 15 from the beta.
Also keep in mind that that a Priest is always better to be geared towards a spellcaster, while a Paladin usually isn't (although high Int is sometimes used with Paladins for conversation options), boosting that duration to 42sec at 18 Int. I also double checked to be sure, and the effects do not stack.
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Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"?
With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks.
Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.
The conclusion always comes down to "bring a priest rather than a Paladin" because the Priest brings the same, but down right better versions of most of the Paladin buffs that don't stack with each other. That, along with many more and varied buffs that they all have access to without spending talents. Considering that at lower levels hard fights are far between each other, you'll have the buffs up that you need when you need them despite the per rest limit. Later, the Priest's low ranking spells (which are again include almost all Paladins buffs, but then better versions that don't require talent investment, along with much, much more) become per encounter and the Priest gets access to high level spells that are so powerful the Paladin can't even begin to compare.
Powergaming doesn't come into the picture here, nor was it ever really discussed. It's all about the pointlessness of the Paladin. A Paladin isn't anywhere nearly as useful as a Priest, if you try to replace a Priest with a Paladin in your group you're seriously handicapping yourself. And for what? Slightly better tanking than a Priest at lower level, since thanks to gear the class you use for tanking becomes largely irrelevant when you get to act 2? What if we put them both in a party instead? Well, then the Paladin turns into an extremely weak version of a Fighter, because again, most of their buffs don't stack. You'll miss out on +1 accuracy and +5% crit at low level (if you don't bring a Paladin), which is peanuts to what a Priest brings later on. So why not take another fighter instead? Or let a chanter offtank along with a fighter (which many people are doing)?
The Paladin needs unique support skills that he brings to the table and see his non support skills keep pace with his level, because currently they're good early on but almost worthless by level 12 (again, almost). Some classes might be above other classes when it comes to relative power but almost all bring something unique to table, apart from the Paladin and one other class. The only other class in a similar situation is the Ranger, which currently lives in the shadow of the Rogue class (but still manages to stand far better on its own compared to a Paladin).
But all of this has been explained ad nauseum in this and other threads. If you want to throw a his fit about this and give a stupid, short sighted misinterpretation of the discussion at hand, I guess that is your right to do. But don't mistaken freedom of speech with being right.
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Drop Int to 10 or so. The Paladin aura is too small to start with for the Int multiplier to be useful.
Good build, but I agree with the remarks made by MadDemiurg and Gkathellar. You'll get more out of 10might/10int if you ask me.
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I think something that's fairly noteworthy is Reviving Exhortation is a per encounter ability, that's a pretty strong thing to have (seeing as most other revival options either take some time to set up - Chanters - or they're per rest - Priests). I think things like Zealous Endurance is pretty neat too, it's a fairly strong benefit that's in constant effect. Overall, I'm very happy with how Paladins play.
Reviving Exhortation isn't as much a rez as a brief way to get someone cast a couple more spells because it kills the targeted ally after its effect have worn of. It's hardly ever useful in its current form.
Zealous Endurance doesn't stack with most other DR, more specifically the level 1 Priest Spell which gives almost double the DR. A spell that becomes castable per encounter at level 9 and considering that hard encounters are far between each other at low levels, you'll have it up whenever you really need the buff.
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Nah, checked it upon release, nothing there... haven't used the item since.It used to. Failing to render appears to be a 1.04 bug.
I took these screenshots less than one minute ago.
http://i.imgur.com/zb11QzO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VKZi32b.jpg
I'm running 1.04 and both the cloak and pig are, and always have been, rendered just fine for me.
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The focus should be less on paladins and more on the fighter vs dragon example provided. The video shows a fighter eating all attacks of the dragon, even the meant to be avoided, high damage breaths, and coming out on top with room to spare. Now this is as seen, and as stated with no consumables, potions, pausing, changing of position, etc. He also stated that the rolls were terrible and this was likely a worst-case scenario. That is a problem. There are far too many topics complaining about Path of the Damned being too easy for it not to be a problem. All it takes is imagining a party supporting that fighter, and then the fight becomes a total landslide victory in favor of the party. This against one of the hardest hitting creatures in the game, outside of the Adra Dragon. How is buffing any class going to make this game more difficult? If the problem is with the game being too easy then the result is that some classes are overtuned rather than some being undertuned.
Stop focusing so much on the fighter, other classes get equally powerful abilities and for most other class PoTD is an equally easy cakewalk.
One of the first complete PoTD Paladin walkthroughs posted on this forum was specifically done by the poster as a Paladin because it would the hardest of all classes to get through PoTD. It was concluded that if they could finish it as a Paladin they could do it on any class (or at least melee).
So again, concluding that Fighters are too powerful after that video is the wrong conclusion to make. If you'd check other PoTD walkthroughs, you'll notice that Paladins are simply that far behind on most other classes. Paladins get an early advantage over most classes, but from Act 2 most of that is rendered pointless because items provide more than enough defenses needed for PoTD.
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EDIT: So I would say that there is bug, but it is not in Flames of Devotion but in Scion of Flame talent
I've been noticing some similar inconsistencies with the damage calculation of FoD too, but my character did not have Scion of Flame. I don't have access to my game for another few days, so I can't post screenshots or logs unfortunately.
Furthermore, I thought a developer commented that Scion of Flame wouldn't work with FoD or Weapons Enchants at all and are planning on patching it? So maybe the culprit is FoD itself after all?
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My suggestions for improving the Paladin;
Give Flames of Devotion a 1/encounter use at level 1. Make the ability automatically give more per encounter charges for every 2 levels you level up. So, you'd get another charge at level 3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17/19, totaling to 6/encounter uses at level 12.
Give Lay on Hands a 1/encounter use at level 1. Make the ability automatically give more per encounter charges for every 4 levels you level up. So, you'd get another charge at level 5/9/13/17, totaling to 3 charges at level 12.
Reasoning for these changes: Both FoD and LoH can be heavily specialized in through class traits and talents to bring a lot of utility to the Paladin class. While these abilities are powerful early on in the game, their initial per encounter uses make these talents (and the Paladin class itself) very lackluster starting around level 7. Other classes get more abilities to fall back on and their utility vastly expands, this while the Paladin is still stuck with the same 2/encounter uses for FoD and 1/encounter uses for LoH (be it slightly more powerful versions) from level 1.
Allow a Paladin to have all of his Zealous Aura's active at the same time. Aura's already don't stack with many buffs of other classes out there. Not to mention that it requires a Paladin to invest out of 5 possible class trait choices, 3 of them into picking up all the Aura's. The aura's also only bring minor buffs, especially compared to the powerful spells some other classes bring at higher levels. Would it therefor really be overpowered for a Paladin to build around them? Keep in mind that the earliest and "auradin" would be active, would be at level 7, with having no other chosen class traits apart from level 1. This, despite dumping a lot of traits and talents into these abilities.
Sworn Enemy is alright at 3/rest, but would feel a lot better and more fitting if it was 1/encounter.
Liberating Exhortation is in it's current form a bad joke. It's a single target version of a level 2 Priest spell, in a game where most debuffs are applied as AoE (or at least, debuffs that it can affect). Considering that Paladins don't have any reason, apart from this and maybe one other spell, to build specifically as a pure spellcaster, you'll be using your slow actions in order to triage AoE effects with 2/encounter single target cleanses. It's just stupid. Either rework it from the ground up, or at least make it an AoE effect (meaning however that it becomes a duplicate of the Priest spell).
Reviving Exhortation is heavily hamstrung due to it killing most classes after its 15 second window. Even high HP classes like Fighters and Barbarians require a healthy investment into Con to survive it. Make it take away 50% of the max endurance of the allied target it was cast on, along with reducing it to 3/rest or something similar. I guarantee that even with 3/rest charges and only 50% max endurance, it'll be numerous times more useful than it's current version. If deemed too powerful at level 7, swap it out with Reinforcing Exhortation (so you get a choice between a debuff (Deprive the Unworthy) or buff (Reinforcing Exhortation) at level 7) that you get at level 9. At level 9, it certainly isn't too powerful compared to what other classes get.
Faith and Conviction needs to be given to none player character Paladins. They are seriously hurt by not having access to such a core ability. Yes, it means you need to keep in mind that you have a Paladin in your group when it comes to roleplaying, but I consider that a good thing.
"But this would make Paladins powerful! You can't do that!", well that's the point. To make Paladins feel powerful, since other classes feel really powerful and potent at level 12. When other classes gain in levels, you basically go from "oh" to "wow" to "holy crap". However, with the Paladin it's currently "meh" from level 1 to 12.
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A fighter with Wary Defender has +15/+10/+10/+10 Defenses (one talent, one ability).
A paladin with Cautious Attack and maxed F&C has +21/+22/+22/+22 defenses (one talent). With Deep Faith, that's +23/+27/+27/+27 (two talents).
Fighters are grand. They have great CC and recover quickly from all kinds of crap.
Paladins are a poorly-designed, discordant mess. Their abilities do not make sense. Many are useless. Paladins deserve a serious fix, and I hope they get it in 1.05.
They still make for the best 100% pure damage-sink tanks, however, due to their strong defenses.
I wouldn't say Paladins are better tanks, keep in mind that Fighters can use Vigorous Defense (turning their defenses to +35/+30/+30/+30 for 15 sec) once per encounter, but more importantly is that Fighters have Critical Defense (turning 20% of incoming crits into hits and 10% of hits into grazes) which is a ridiculously powerful talent.
Anyway, I'm willing to concede the point only for the fact that some of the most staunch defenders of the Paladins class, calling the Paladin "A great class that simply plays different from other classes and that people are playing them wrong", have brought up your exact quote about Paladin tanks as "proof" to back their claims. That you're disagreeing with them yourself is simply amusing to see.
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IMHO they all suck, there are better talents to take for a paladin.
Well, sure, pick up Zealous Aura along with the +5% crit talent, but the rest of unique Paladin abilities are pretty crap. Some of the order abilities are alright and are definitely worth picking up.
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Two fighters as tanks is overkill. While having one is OK (the can bind more enemies and deal more damage than other tanks), I'd use a chanter or paladin as second tank. This way, you could free up a back-row slot which you could fill with a single-target nuker, in your setup probably a reach-rogue as you have three characters (priest, wizard, chiper) who are excellent at providing debuffs for sneak attacks (hold person, the foe-aoe blind, mental binding).
He has a Priest, no need to include a Paladin. He would be nothing but a weak Fighter, since the Priest takes care of almost all of the buffs a Paladin would bring (and brings much, much more at the same time). I'd follow the advice of possibly replacing one of the other fighters with a Chanter in full plate, but otherwise just keep the 2 Fighters.
Just make sure that one of them has Guardian (+10 deflection for nearby allies) and you're good to go. Make one your main tank with sword&board and give the other a big 2-hander to be your peeler (aka, your target to kill designator).
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Frankly, if you need to rest that much, you're doing something wrong. Most enemy groups don't require you to use up your on rest spells, your per encounter or simply auto attacks should do just fine. Don't blow all your level 4 Priest's spells on every bandit you encounter.
Furthermore, I strongly agree with the posters that state that this would demolish any and all difficulty into the game. Per rest abilities are generally too damn powerful to be used per encounter. And no, I wouldn't prefer the system from the IE games where you can be ambushed or randomly attacked when traveling. The current system is just fine.
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). It's not a very good substitute, but that micro-intensive squishy can become really annoying after a while.
[NPC Builds] Paladins, specifically Pallegina
in Pillars of Eternity: Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!)
Posted
Nice builds guys, going to give that "Fast Running Tank" a definite try in one of my future playthroughs.