Ivan the Terrible
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Posts posted by Ivan the Terrible
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Nope. Your Kreia dialogue pretty much sums up what I have been saying. I see a lowercase 't' in the phrase 'true Sith Empire'. The Old Republic is right on track. I think people wanted the story to be more complex. Lets face one fact here. Obsidian had to rush towards the deadline. Some pieces were accidently left out, and others were cut on purpose. How much do you want to make a bet that Obsidian messed up on editting dialogue. Rush, rush, rush... They didn't have time to finish, and that included missing some grammer errors along the way. Remember this BioWare and Lucas were involved in the development of KotOR I, KotOR II, and now SWTOR storyline. Its was all planed that way.
And this...?
As mentioned, why did Revan have to leave everyone he loved behind to fight this threat? Why didn't he inform the Republic of what was coming? Why did he assume that his becoming a Sith Lord himself would have been a 'lesser evil' compared to conquest by this other Sith Empire?You're giving Chris A. too little credit.
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'True Sith" = the true Sith threat. Nothing more, nothing less. It was that simple.
Unlikely to be what Chris A. had in mind. As mentioned, why did Revan have to leave everyone he loved behind to fight this threat? Why didn't he inform the Republic of what was coming? Why did he assume that his becoming a Sith Lord himself would have been a 'lesser evil' compared to conquest by this other Sith Empire?
Exile: But we've defeated the Sith!Kreia: Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere. And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his way. And he left the Ebon Hawk and all its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them. And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks.
The 'True Sith', by appearances, were intended to be something a little more ominous than just 'a Sith Empire, but with even MORE big ships and soldiers and Sith Lords!'
Or at least I hope to god Chris A. wasn't simply setting us up for something that shallow and forgettable.
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As for the topic, I'd love to know too. But MCA hasn't posted here in a long, long time.
Bah. I have a bad feeling we'll never know, and from the sounds of it I'm worried Bioware might not have grasped the sinister and mysterious aspect of whatever menace Revan went off to fight. If it had just been another conquer-the-galaxy Sith Empire, as the upcoming MMORPG seems to suggest, then how will they explain why Revan didn't just immediately inform the Jedi and the Republic and start cranking out the war machine necessary to fight? How will they explain his reasoning for leaving everyone and everything behind and going alone to face what he had to face? If it's just another ho-hum Sith Empire, then having Bastila and Carth and Jolee and all the rest would be far from a disadvantage. And if it were just another ho-hum Sith Empire, becoming a Sith Lord yourself to save the galaxy from the coming threat seems a bit pointless.
It kinda reminds me of Star Control II and all the subtle hints that were left about the ultimate fate of the Precursors, or about whatever malevolent forces devoured the Androsynth. There's a mystery here, and maybe even Herr Avellone didn't whip up a good answer to it....or even could manage to do so without it coming across as an anti-climax. That Bioware seems to be opting for dropping all the mystery about the 'True Sith' and just going for 'some old Sith Lord ran off and now he's come back with an even BIGGER Army and Navy!' is disappointing, but then, I suppose we don't have enough detail to truly judge just yet.
EDIT:
Chris Avellone
Last post: July 22nd 2006!?!
Ok, no hope, then. I've been gone for a long time, but there was an age when could be seen responding to things on occasion.
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Hello? Hello?
Probably not. That's the problem with games; you have to spend all that time writing the things. Not enough time for message board browsing.
In any case, the topic: now that the details of the 'True Sith' and Revan's fate have passed from the hands of the fine folks at Obsidian and into the hands of Bioware, I'd kill to find out exactly what Chris Avellone was thinking when he made all the unanswered suggestions and allusions in KOTOR II. What happened to Revan? Why was it necessary for him to travel alone to face these 'True Sith', and take no one he loved? There was obviously something darker and more sinister involved than simple galactic conquest; after all, he had previously become a Sith himself and tried to conquer the galaxy in order to save it from the even worse darkness to come, right?
None of it can be canon Star Wars now, obviously, since Bioware is whipping up it's own interpretation, but now that we'll never see the Obsidian-crafted climax to the storyline it seems fairly harmless to let us all in on what the vision was.
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Until KotOR1 was released, NWN: Hordes of the Underdark was the best looking and playing PC game I'd seen.
I take it your experience with RPGs is limited?
I might be able to understand 'best looking', but playing? Pffftt. It was good, but it was way too dungeon crawlish, with the end game being the biggest Monty Haul fest to be found outside Diablo.
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Shadowrun. Easily.
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Yes, PS:T was a great game...
It did however strike odd, that the most Monstrous of your incarnations was the practical one...
It makes sense if you understand the usage of the word practical. In some circumstances, the word is a compliment, but it can also be used as a euphemism for someone who gets things done without worrying about useless annoyances such as 'morality' or 'good' or 'evil.' They see the quickest method required to reach their goal, and they use it no matter how much damage it causes or who it hurts.
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Ahhh, yes, "Longing." I was impressed with how they handled that sequence as well.
It wasn't my favorite single-player gaming moment of all time; in fact, it wasn't even my favorite of Planescape: Torment (that belongs to my conversation with Ravel Puzzlewell, or perhaps the last act of the Fortress of Regrets.) Nevertheless, it's a very memorable part of the game.
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KOTOR II had a lot of flaws, no doubt.
But I always feel the urge to ridicule anyone who showers praise on KOTOR's storyline, or Bioware's storytelling. If I saw a movie plot handled with the clumsiness of KOTOR, I'd think it was one of the sloppiest scripts of the year, without a doubt.
I think the praise people have for KOTOR says a lot less about the game itself and a lot more about the relative quality of the competition.
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I think BgII has one of the worst examples where you must hurry to free poor Imoen, but you still somehow have the time to skulk around the city and country for an eternity.
I hated that. Hated it.
Whenever I was playing as a goodie two-shoes, there was never a point in the game where I could feel comfortable about my inaction on the major quests. If I waited forever and did all my sidequests, I felt like I had just ditched Imoen to torture and abuse. If I got the money quickly and headed straight out to save her,
I came back to find an Elven city being demolished with me (theoretically) being the only thing between them and catastrophe.
If I beat that, the game was over.
At some point in BG2, all good characters have to be callous bastards if they want to do anything but the main plot. I've been able to rationalize for other games, but BG2 made it damn hard.
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Anyone else astonished this thread hasn't been closed yet?
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A good writer knows when to step away from his creation and let it go.
Lucas is many things....but a 'good writer' isn't one of them.
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Aside from the problems already mentioned, the KOTOR games are inherently less moddable than BG2.
Unlike in BG2, a character without a voice sticks out like a sore thumb, restricting any potential dialogue to what was already recorded and just left out....and also unlike BG2, by having a Developer adding even 'unofficial' content, you also have what amounts to a developer giving an unofficial middle finger to all the X-Boxers who can't get that mod.
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Be careful with the numbers (25million??? not really...). And the comparison lacks a little bit.
" But your point is clear, though.
No, seriously. The commonly accepted number of civilian casualties for the Eastern Front in World War II is between 20 and 30 million. Read the beginning of this article.
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In Warcraft III, that Night Elf daemonhunter from the Night Elf campaign. The way he had to become dark in order to destroy the big daemon guy. He did this willingly and become a daemon though he couldnt return to his people and though his intentions were good, he had still fallen into darkness (definitely in his peoples' view).
That was a classic dramatic scene.
Illidan disappointed me in the expansion pack, though. He became a daemon to help kill Tichondrius and destroy the Burning Legion in the original game....and now he's willing to make a pact right out of the blue with Kil'jaeden and join them? Talk about sketchy motives.
He, along with the Blood Elves and the Naga, seemed to be rather poorly thought out.....despite the major role they all played.
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Wehrmacht in WWII was ultra-disciplined army: even in Russia german soldiers weren't stealing and raping
women in a contrary to US savages in Iraq - craddle of human civilization.
If you want to get into a humanitarian comparison of the German occupation of the Soviet Union (roughly 25 million civilians killed) vs. the American occupation of Iraq (civilian casualties differ by source, but usually between 10,000/15,000), you're going to lose.
And I would say the Mandalorians remind me most of the Thraddash.
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aahh not only swedish iron.. the fact that with Denmark (and Norway to protect from the north), you control the flow of the entire baltic sea, had something to do with it as well I think..
True....but the best reason to control the Baltic sea (aside from the U-Boat ports along the Norwegian coast and eventually boxing the Soviet fleet up in Leningrad) is the Swedish iron shipments.
Norway was taken primarily for its position with a coastline towards the north atlantic....they would have gotten the Iron anyways :D
Well, kinda.
Most of the ore shipped from Sweden to Germany stopped first in Norway, at least during the winter. If Britain had found a way to disrupt the shipments, Germany would have been hurting for iron pretty fast.
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I hated Arthas, but I do agree his fall was well done. But there's no guarantee he won't try and redeem himself whenever Warcraft IV comes around.
Probably unlikely.
There is no Arthas to redeem anymore; there's only a sort of Ner'zhul/Arthas hybrid, the newly freed Lich King.
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This will sound lame as f#$k, but I'm going to go with Sephiroth (from FF7).
Even if it's not one of my faves, I don't think it's lame, either. I remember really liking the guy when I first met him.
BTW, my own choice will probably be considered lame, too:
I really liked the fall of Prince Arthas in Warcraft III. Seriously. Say what you like about the game itself, but there were no cop-outs with Arthas.
*DETAILED SPOILERS AHEAD, IF YOU EVER PLAN TO PLAY WARCRAFT III!*
He starts out a sort of Paladin super-hero, helping children and saving villagers from rampaging Orcs and bloodthirsty Undead. As the Human campaign progresses, he shows impatience....but crap, which epic hero isn't headstrong and defiant of the system?
Then, the situation deteriorates. He gets to Strahnbrad and, seeing the townspeople infected and on the verge of becoming Undead, he orders the city burned and it's people slaughtered. His allies balk and abandon him....and I couldn't help but sympathize with him. Faced with a hard situation, he was taking the only option open to him, no matter how horrific it may have seemed. If you could prevent a plague from spreading and wiping out countless cities and towns by burning one city, wouldn't you? Uther and Jaina ran away from their responsibilites without the slightest attempt at an alternative solution, while Arthas hardened his heart and did what had to be done.
So he goes to Northrend to hunt Mal'Ganis with my sympathies for him intact. When the King tries to recall his troops at Uther's request, he proceeds to burn the ships they arrived on to prevent his forces from abandoning the mission; harsh, but nowhere near as harsh as hiring mercenaries to help him, and then blaming those same mercenaries for the destruction of the ships when his men stumble across them. Arthas betrays his mercenaries and helps massacre them, all the while lying to his men and showing not the slightest sign of guilt.
By this point, I get it entirely: Arthas is becoming a downright evil bastard. His murder of Muradin, and finally taking up Frostmourne, are only icing on the cake.
I love this for several reasons:
1) Unlike most 'slides' into the Dark Side, this one was comprehensible. It happened, not because Arthas suddenly decided he wanted to 'be evil', but for the same reason it happens so often in the real world; a good cause pursued with increasingly ruthless and questionable tactics, all with the aim of a greater good emerging out of the momentary evil. By the end, as with so many self-righteous people, you could no longer tell where Arthas' petty bruised ego ended and the genuine desire to defend the Kingdom began; in the name of the latter, he seemed to really be desperately trying to soothe the former, even at the cost of his men's lives and his own soul.
2) The blame is never misplaced. Kerrigan in Starcraft was still good when Mengsk betrayed her; in effect, she became evil and never regretted it, but it wasn't really her fault. Whatever the magic sword may do to him at the end of the first campaign, everything here is Arthas' fault, brought on him by his own stubborn arrogance and stupidity. After so many other game betrayals in which everyone is at fault but the betrayer, it felt good to see a story which didn't flinch in assigning blame, and yet still won a measure of sympathy.
3) Once he fell, he never looked back. There was no Darth Vader 'oh no what have I become' moment for Arthas. Every time we see him after, he seems to be positively enthralled with his new role as a Death Knight and the destroyer of his own kingdom; in fact, the first we see of him as a Death Knight is his strolling into the throne room and almost gleefully running his father through. Redemption is a cliche almost as overdone as betrayal; I like it when a company takes a chance and let's a character actually enjoy his evil actions instead of waiting for someone to save them.
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*SLIGHT SPOILERS, OBVIOUSLY!*
Ever since games have had reasonably coherent plotlines, there have been good characters who, for one reason or another, 'go bad' and join the villain. This has been used as a shocker so many times, and often so improbably, that it's lost much of it's impact.
Nevertheless, it can still be done well, if the writers are good and the situation is handled well. I didn't see Yoshimo's betrayal coming in BG2 until he started flagrantly blowing his cover on the Pirate Isle, and (while anyone could see it coming a mile away after she was ditched on Tarsonis) I definetely enjoyed the transformed Kerrigan of Starcraft, in all her ruthless ultra-violence.
By contrast, the contrived nonsense of the NWN 'betrayal' of Aribeth was beyond pathetic, and Bastila's fall was pretty weak, too.
Anyone have any favorites? Keep in mind the issue is less the character, and more the way the actual fall was handled in the story.
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Being good isn't mandatory to have an
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Am I the only one not exactly enthused about the whole 1980s High School RPG thing?
I mean, maybe he can make it work....but to me it conjures up images of all the horrifically bad teen movie crap Hollywood forced down our throats during the period. Blech.
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And nowadays we dont even need an army and havent for a century. We simply lack anything of interest to.. anyone basicly, unless you have a fetisch for pine trees, we have lots of those. Look at WWII, the Jerries took you, Norway and the Finns allied themselves with em so the didnt have to take them. Meanwhile, Sweden remained completely unmolested.
Well....technically speaking, the Jerries took Norway and Denmark because of Sweden. They needed to go through Denmark to get to Norway, and they needed to hold Norway to prevent British troops from potentially cutting off their iron shipments from Sweden.
The whole thing was all about Swedish iron.
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Everytime i talk with someone about PS Torment i get the feeling that the sole reason they consider PS so much better story-wise than BG is the fact that it's darker and more twisted than BG (which of course goes along with the delight of most RPG players of playing it evil.... which i never quite understood... -not that i don't enjoy the occasional evil run in a good RPG
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For me, it isn't that the story is darker, though I do like a dark story.
For me, it's the fact that Torment seemed to come up with it's story and mostly have it make sense, compared to BG which often wanted you to accept new plot developments that were strained, at best. Between the two, BG's plot made a whole lot less sense.
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Mr. Chris A., you out there? Can you spill the beans now?
in Star Wars: General Discussion
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For canon purposes, like the Star Wars databank, Revan is male and Exile is female. But really, that's pretty meaningless. You can consider them either sex and it works equally well.