Proposal: Change 'Philosopher' attributes

[zaneyu]

Hello dear developers and fellow backers,

 

I've been hoping to write this post for a long time but it's been delayed until now for various reasons. I hope my suggestions can still be viewed and adopted before the official launch of the game.

 

I am suggesting to change the attributes gained from the background job 'philosopher'. Currently, it adds +2 for Insight. But I think this is a mistake given what a philosopher actually is or do in the real world.

 

By the way, I am writing this as a research postgraduate student in philosophy.

 

To remind ourselves, 'Insight' as a skill in PoE 2 has this description: 'Conversations can be difficult to navigate. People may be evasive, lying, frightened, or preoccupied with other matters. Insight is used to empathize with someone and understand their underlying emotions and motivations.'

 

To be honest, I personally find this description more applicable to a psychologist, psychiatrist or a counsellor.

 

What most we philosophy students do or philosophers do in the real world every day would be studying or thinking about metaphysics, ethics, epistemology, etc., and since its close relation to metaphysics, we also discuss religions quite a lot (but it is mainly because, philosophers mostly work on beliefs that we human beings have). And a huge part of our job is writing, presenting or discussing in a rational, argumentative and diplomatic way.

 

You may find 'diplomacy' here to be bit weird. But it is diplomatic because normally philosophers are not supposed to treat other philosophers' thoughts as utterly wrong or ridiculous (unless they are 200% sure or over-confident). They behave as charitable as possible towards others'arguments even when they go in a completely different direction, and the situation of a philosophical question is very difficult or tricky. (See Daniel Dennett's opinions on how to argue with kindness.)

 

Therefore, if your game design has its inspiration from the real world, then the definition of 'Insight' does not apply to 'philosopher' as a job. This is because in our studies or training we do not learn how to understand people's 'underlying emotions and motivations'—that would be the skill you learn and gain during your counselling technique training (just for the record, I was a social work student in my undergraduate, and I underwent  some counselling training). And in many cases, philosophers are quite bad at understanding underlying emotions and motivations. If they do, that would perhaps be their personal trait and skill gained through their life experience rather than their profession, because most of us do not need to consider that when we philosophising.

 

Therefore, I would suggest changing the skills added by 'philosopher' in the game to:

 

+1 Diplomacy: Diplomacy can be used to negotiate rational and reasonable resolutions to difficult situations. It stresses patience, respect, and sensitivity, and may therefore be despised by the rough edges of Eoran societies.

+1 Metaphysics: A young field of knowledge, Metaphysics deals with animancy, adra, the Wheel, the In-Between, the Beyond, and all mysteries of the soul.

 

 

+1 Religion: Religion covers both the theological concerns of Eora's various religions as well as popular beliefs, saint cults, and religious organizations in the world.

 

And perhaps there should be +2 on metaphysics.

 

But I understand that this is related to the balance issue in the game, so the above adjustment may not serve well for that purpose. However, since this is an RPG game, immersion is also quite important. Under the current setting of the job background of 'philosopher', I as a philosophy student do find it breaking the immersion. But perhaps '+2 Insight' is exactly what a philosopher can be in the world of PoE?

 

Anyway, I hope my post can help with something and a wonderful PoE 2 is coming on its way.

 

Best regards,

Zane

 

[SaruNi]

Why do you assume "Philosopher" in this context refers to present day academic philosophers? Socrates or Plato (or Aquinas, or various ancient South or East Asian philosophers) would be better models. 

 

And in terms of ordinary people skills, academic philosophers---whether "analytical" or "continental"---would not be considered "diplomatic" at all, because many people (depending on culture) can't stand having their beliefs and hypocrisies rationally critiqued. It's what got Socrates sentenced to death, after all....

 

The relation between philosophy and religion is and has been vexed---from Socrates to the present. Knowledge of rational critiques of religion is not the same as knowledge of the details of religious dogma or mythology or rituals. In PoE, the "religion" skill primarily implies the latter. (Incidentally, a glance at empirical data confirms my impression that the majority of academic philosophers are agnostic or effectively atheists---and those who aren't generally have a non-superstitious and abstract or immanent redefinition of theism which most religious people would probably consider essentially not believing.)

 

But metaphysics, sure.

[zaneyu]

Thank you for the reply.

 

You did not mention it, but assuming what you've said is correct, then it still doesn't imply a 'philosopher' in PoE 2 should have Insight +2. But of course, it all comes down to what a 'philosopher' really is.

 

I don't quite follow your reasoning in the second paragraph, for some people being not open to challenges to their beliefs doesn't entail that so are philosophers. Even if we take ancient philosophers as the models for the PoE philosophers, it still suggests that a PoE philosopher should have diplomacy +1, given the way philosophers generally argue and the definition of 'diplomacy' in PoE 2 which I quoted in the original post. I personally don't see a huge difference between modern philosophers and ancient philosophers on this aspects. You may, however, argue that this is my self-projection of my academic training, and I won't have a strong counterargument against that.

 

As for your third paragraph, I think I agree with you and thank you for pointing out what 'religion' may actually mean in PoE. I was focusing too much on the word 'theological'.

 

Perhaps if the game supports Steam Workshop then there should be a MOD adding sub-classes of philosophers so everyone would be happy.