[Update 93: Patch 1.03 - Important Community Fixes]

*sigh* it really doesn't matter who started the movement - it really is about the movement it self. 

The person who started it might have been a pure hypocrite, but it still holds meaning regardless.

 

The whole issue is a grey area.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion and should be free to say it, but as a commercial product obsidian does needs to cover its bases. After all, the media is a dangerous beast who can easily be swayed one way or the other. The media can make or break a company and its best to be on its side. During development of PoE ,Obsidian nearly went bankrupt now isn't a time for them to do risky behavior. If you love Obsidian you will accept their decision so they can continue to make games you enjoy. Sometimes you should know when to fight and when not too. After all it is not your jobs and livelihood on the line when you say "They should have Stood up to the SJW's".

 

If you want to take a stand against them - do it directly to them ( SJW ), but don't blame Obsidian for it. After all, they are simply trying to survive in these dangerous times where many studios are shuttering its doors.

 

So you are ok that people start to influence Obsidian when they decide to view some part of content as offensive to them even if they have misunderstood the said content? 

Obsidian was able to create Pillars of Eternity through the help of 77000 backers, do you really think that vast majority of them find that limerick be so damaging they wouldn't buy the next Obsidian game? Then again if Obsidian starts to cater to SJW's and cut and remove content from the game everytime someone makes a fuss about something that will definately affect peoples willingness to buy it's products. 

 

Only party in this case that had the ability to stand for it's content and editorial decicions was Obsidian, but they decided to remove content from the game because someone was offended by it. People will allways take offence on what you do, but if you seek to please everyone by losing your integrity you will end up pleasing nobody.

 

In the end we who have bought the game end up losing content, Obsidian has lost it's spine and Firedorn was forced to remove his art.

[Update 93: Patch 1.03 - Important Community Fixes]

 

Not sure if you're serious or not. Regardless. Let's take that deep breath together. Inhale. One... Two... Three... Exhale. And again... Okay? I truly don't mean that to patronize you. I am actually concerned you are letting internet cats dancing across a keyboard affect your mood. Oh you weren't aware? That's all we are. Absolutely true. Cats somehow mashing out complete thoughts. Even this. So take this next bit with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

You can not deny this is a triviality if it affects you so. It is a triviality relatively speaking. Claims of alleged insensitivity or obsequiousness have a way of building malign towers to better cast stones. But that is fine. Because you know triviality when you see it, but more importantly... the cats. Hope you feel better LordCrash.

 

Sincerely,

Detruncate

 

 

You're right, I'm sorry. I know I should let this internet stuff get to me but sometimes the pure stupidity, egocentrism and self-righteousness of some people on the internet is really hard to bear.

 

Anyway, I think Obsidian can gladly go without every single customer who feels personally offended by such a triviality (no matter on which "side" you are). The community here and the long-term sanity of its members (devs included) will be better without them. Looking at the ridiculously low post count of many people on this "discussion" proves that most of them aren't really interested in the game itself in the first place...

 

Much Ado About Nothing.

 

 

Couple of things. 

 

How does someones post have any bearing on the issue?

 

And using false equilevance fallacy to make both sides seem equal is quite absurd. Some of us are rightly disturbed by the fact that a company we have supported and followed for years has decided to remove content from it's game because someone decided to take issue about a joke. A joke they decided was about an issue it had nothing to do with. Also freedom of speech and expression aren't trivial matters. People actually die defending free speech and expression. IF Obsidian had made an editorial decision about the limerick on their own and before the release of the game it would have been fine. But lacking the courage and spine to defend a piece of art after it has been included in the game shows that they are propably willing to censor themselves in future.

 

Would you prefer if Obsidian in future doesn't include any situations that might be a source of controversy, there is implied rape, abortion, dead gods and murders. IF we start to remove content because it triggers some of the consumers we will soon have nothing left.

 

Those who decided to take one the mantle of limerick police have the right to express their opinion on the matter, but that doesn't mean that their wishes has to be granted and something has to be taken away from the community through the act of censorship.

 

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.” - John Milton 

 

“Because if you don't stand up for the stuff you don't like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you've already lost.” - Neil Gaiman 

 

“Most people do not really want others to have freedom of speech, they just want others to be given the freedom to say want they want to hear.” - Mokokoma Mokhonoama

[Update 93: Patch 1.03 - Important Community Fixes]

Guise, did it occur to you that maybe they had it changed because they didn't like it after someone pointed it out to them, regardless of her politics?

 

Inconceivable, I know.

It's a limerick/joke, not everyone is going to like jokes in general. But forcing the creator of the limerick to change it because someone perceives it as an attack towards transger people OR because someone at Obsidian didn't like it is still absurd stance to take. Just think about it, someone went through all those backer notes and decided that this one was worth outrage and then when it's removed the reason isn't going to be "we didn't like the limerick, please make a better one please.". 

 

I just personally wish someone at Obsidian had actually looked in to the people who were complaining about it and had the spine to stop the process of cencoring the limerick. At same time they forced the backed into impossible situation of either stand up to the company he was such a huge supporter that he paid 500$ or more, or betraying his own principles like he ended up doing.

 

Everyone should have the freedom to express themselves however they want, be it written, visual or audio.  That goes for both artists and their critics.  If someone puts up something controversial, then they should expect that some people won’t like it.  The right to express your opinion is the same as a person’s right to express themselves artistically.  Asking for censorship, however, goes against all that...especially when you don't know a god damned thing about the context of the art piece. -Firedorn  http://www.orderoflaibach.com/blog/screw-you-firedorn-lightbringer

[Update 93: Patch 1.03 - Important Community Fixes]

I think devs came out of this tricky situation choosing lesser evil. They could ignore these rants and put themselves for a hatred of some group of players. They could instead make a mandatory change, because it's their game (financed by backers, but still), but first thing they did is to ASK a guy who wrote the limerick if he's OK with changing it. I'm pretty sure that if he didn't consent to it, they would respect his decision and won't touch it. 

The only thing I do not like is the part of lack of vetting the content. I'm rather sure that devs also think the guy/girl overreacted out there on Twitter and the change was made only because of their fear about losing PR. If that so, they could just admit it "We made the change, because we don't want to upset this group of players who feels upset about some stuff our backers wrote". Saying it wasn't vetted enough is a bit like showing the rest of players a middle finger. I wasn't upset at all, and laughed heavily. And I do not have any problems with transgender people. It was just a damn good joke, that's all. 

 

So, to sum things up - I like they handled it with Firedorn, but I don't buy this vetting stuff. It was vetted all right.

 

Obsidian should have just told people that were demanding censorship that the joke wasn't about transgender people and they weren't going to do anything about it. The people behind the drive to cencor the limerick are doing it to force people to curb their jokes, thoughts and art.

 

Firedorn said "The joke wasn't targeted at trans-people, nor anyone in the LGBTQIA+ spectrum."  When Obsidian as an entity decided to pursue Firedorn to change the Limerick because a third party had perceived it as a joke about transgender people they inadvertently make it easier for people to force their agendas on Obsidian in the future. As a company that creates art to bring joy to people who enjoy their products that are filled with adult content they should have chosen to side with free speech instead of caving to demands by someone who thinks #killallmen is a acceptable hashtag.

[Update 93: Patch 1.03 - Important Community Fixes]

It's pretty pathetic they changed it, but I guess maintaining good PR and coming off as not transphobic was probably more important to them as a company especially when the source of the problem was so trivial in the first place and easy to change.

 

Still it may have been nice for them to maintain integrity and lay down that having a poem about prejudice in a game ≠ real life prejudice. It was clearly jokey in tone, it's annoying when people tell other people what they are allowed to find funny as there's a world of difference between finding a non-politically correct joke amusing and being a prejudiced person who persecutes minorities. It sends a bad message on a whole range of levels.

 

And I mean for god's sakes, they've got gay people on the development team. If none of them thought that a guy killing himself through shame because he committed a homosexual act was offensive, why should that be changed now?

IF people read it as transphobic it's more about their own issues than about the limerick. There isn't anything about transgenderism in it, but it reads more about ladies man mistaking a transvestite or feminine man as woman and then being so insecure about himself that he killed himself rather than deal with his issues. 

 

There was no problem until people decided that the joke was transphobic without knowing what the original author had meant by it. Thay could have tried to contact the author for clarification, but instead they cried foul and decided to start a cencorship rally to have the content removed. And then Obsidian decided to "ask" the author if he could change it. 

[Update 93: Patch 1.03 - Important Community Fixes]

Whenever you make a decicion to censorship content you make yourself a prisoner of your actions.

What is the next step?

People complain that the soulless babies are a metaphor for gay children and they are killing them because they are gay and now it must be changed.

IF you are ok with people getting hanged, starved to death, killing of endangered species, wiping out whole colonies of native creatures just so you can have a fancy stronghold, then you should be able to handle one limerick that was both funny and one of the better backer memorials. If I had backed the game at that level I would have been proud to be able to make a limerick that was as good.