Aestus

@Boeroer Okay, I can see what you're saying now. The Ranger's DPS after getting Twinned Arrow is very high. Sagani is feeling like one of my strongest units, and I barely have to pay attention to her. I think Bread and Butter Tier is a good spot for the class.

I'll check it out. TBH, I've never used it before as a main weapon, because I've always valued Persistence and Borresaine so highly.

Its not that I am unconvinced, just unconvinced so far. It seems like Twinned Arrows is the breakthrough moment for the class, and I haven't reached there yet. I'm close though, so I'll be testing it shortly and post what I think.

@Boeroer So I've been testing Ranger. I'm around level 8 almost 9. So far I feel that I was underestimating the Ranger's damage, but I still don't feel like BnB Tier is the place for them. Here are some of my concerns: Target selection is still a problem for them even though they are ranged. This is because their damage is shared with the pet, and pets don't have an effective way to get onto the back line. In PoE1 this is particularly a problem, because fights tend to be more cramped then in Deadfire. Pets can't get that "practicaly immortal" status that you need from front line damage dealers like Fighter and Monk, where you can throw them in to deal damage and focus your attention on others things without needing to worry. Maybe this will change with Play Dead though, I haven't gotten their yet. So I'm leaning towards keeping them in Niche Tier, but bumping them up above Rogue.

This is the big thing for me. Since the late game role of the Chanter is mostly to just chant through Withdraw + Mindweb I usually just build them to stack defenses, so Sword and Shield Style, Cautious Attack, etc. For what its worth, I also really value Mercy and Kindness. I'm probably different than a lot of players in that I consider Wound Binding to be a top tier talent that I take early and often. In the end, I feel very disincentivized to build my Chanter to do anything that's actually fun and interactive. Its one of my problem with the class in PoE1. It goes from the Act 1 hero, summoning the spirits of its ancestors to rain stuns and insane damage on your enemies, to uninteractive walking buff by late game.

Sure, send them over and I can include them in the description of the video! That said, the tier list isn't factoring in solo. I love solo running PoE, but its a different beast altogether, so I'm factoring out solo performance in the tier list. I'm willing to promote either Rogue or Ranger to BnB, but you say Rogue and Boeroer says Ranger. I'll test them and make my decision. Just to whip a dead horse, the soloing abilities of the Rogue don't factor in for me, what matters is how the classes perform with a team. I've played a lot of Rogues, mostly because I love playing Rogues in Deadfire and I also like importing save files. I've mostly been unimpressed.

I don't think that is correct. Its been forever since I tested this, but my understanding Mith Fyr in PoE1 is a universal lash, so it actually adds onto things like retaliation damage and some direct damage spells.

Interesting! I have of course built Dragon Thrashed chanters - its the funnest build imo - but in full party run I tend to prefer Mith Fyr. Lashes are insane in this game, and a universal lash is just too juicy to pass up. I'll be sure to mention both strategies in the video. You make some interesting points about the ranger! I honestly didn't know about the damage scaling quirks for the pet. I'm just entering Defiance Bay on a run right now, so I'll slot Sagani into the party and see how I feel. Its been a while since I've used her.

I agree that Priests are special, best class in the game hands down. So lets talk about Ciphers next then. I agree that Ciphers are usually rated highly for reasons I think aren't solid. Splitting their action economy the way they do is a problem, especially when they never really become great weapon strikers, having to auto attack so much is a weakness, not a plus. That said, late game they are insane carries. Mindweb is on par with what Priests offer. They can reach unholy peaks for accuracy, which can turn into stunlocks on their auto's with the right weapons.. In mob fights, an Amplified Wave opener is a single cast, no brainer, resource free win button. Its hard to separate their value from that of the Priest, because the two synergize so well. But for my money Ciphers are stronger supports then Chanters at the point of the game where it matters most. Am I missing something? Rogue DPS is mediocre in PoE1. Druids out damage them, and have insane spells on top of that! Monks keep up and are also unkillable demons. Hell, even Fighter DPS gets overlooked in my opinion, and late game Triggered Immunity can make some run-ending fights a free win. If - IF - rogue's are good at anything, its late game when they can blink onto priority targets, land a few dual wield Saps to blow them up, then Feign Death to drop aggro. Its pretty good, but other classes can do comparable things and more. Talk to me about Ranger though. They are the class I am least experienced with, and you ranked them at Bread-n-Butter. What's the reasoning there? Great! Whatever you feel up to will be great! If you want to do 5 new builds like last time, I won't say no! But don't feel like you have to! I think fans of yours (like me) just like hearing you talk about the game, so we'd listen to whatever bone you're willing to throw us! As for time, just e-mail me when you're ready and we'll schedule something.

Thanks for taking the time to help! You opinions are valued as always. BTW, I've been meaning to write, I'm open to doing another Top 5 Funnest Builds interviews but for PoE1. Let me know if you are interested! I expect the difference between our opinion has to do with rest restrictions. In resting games like this, I always assume a squad that can reliably clear an encounter by spending less finite resources is better then one that spends more for the same clear. I track this by tallying rests and try to reduce the amount of rests needed in each run. Priests are on a tier of their own when you can spam their spells. Druids excel by having a higher baseline impact when not using spells, which allows you to horde spells and go nova in key battles. What do you think of that kind of reasoning?

Hello all! If you have the time, I need your advice. I am a Youtuber who’s mostly known for making educational videos on the tactics of Baldur’s Gate 3. I've recently made some fairly popular videos on the PoE series, including a Deadfire Class Tier List video featuring Thelee. Now I am turning my attention towards making a similar video for Pillars of Eternity 1. Just like last time, I need your advice. I have just shy of 1,000 hours in PoE, which is enough for me to have an informed opinion, but still just one perspective. So, I am offering my draft of the list to peer review. I’ve outlined the list below. I can't include my reasoning without this post being to long, so feel free to ask questions. If you have any thoughts or challenges to offer, I’d appreciate your input. Please note though that the finished Tier List ultimately must represent my opinion. I will alter the list if my opinion is altered. The List: Game Breaking Tier: Priest, Druid Overloaded Tier: Cipher, Monk, Wizard, Chanter Bread'n'Butter Tier: Barbarian, Paladin Niche Tier: Fighter, Rogue, Ranger

Time isn't an issue! Its not like I'm trying to capitalize on a new release haha. We can record it at our own convenience.

The offer in the video still stands @Elric Galad I think a video discussing the community and balance patches would be fun! DM me if you are interested!

Well said! All of you guys can be proud of the great stuff you've done for this game!

Hey folks! @Boeroer and I recorded this discussion on 5 builds he made for Deadfire. I thought y'all might be interested! https://youtu.be/nEdI3x8qxGM

To my mind, the difference is that the Paladin tends to underperform without much attention. It doesn't need much attention in general, but that doesn't mean what it does is high impact in general. I do want to be clear though, niche does not mean useless. There are games that have useless classes, but Deadfire isn't one of them. Every class can be a part of a top-performing build, even the Paladin. I'm arguing against it, and its one of my favorite classes.

That's a fair take. In general, casters tend to be better than martials, so it makes sense. My thoughts was just that if you're looking for a caster multi, Monks tend to overshadow everything else.

Awesome! Let me think through how I'd want to do that video and I'll DM you when I'm ready. No one who matters cares. There are always folks in my comments nitpicking me on accent/pronunciation, and English is my only language.

Thanks! My voice is something I work on a lot. In many ways I am bad youtuber - I'm not a good editor or sound engineer, for example - but my voice is something I do put some time and energy into, so its nice of you to notice. I usually try to answer the "what is fun to play?" question in my build videos. I think the whole point of a build is that its a mechanical/narrative concept that hooks me for an entire run, and so I share it so others can have that experience. I'm already working on some builds of my own, but it could be a good idea to make a video introducing the excellent build content already on this forum. Just brainstorming here, but you would be the perfect person to interview for that video! Your PoE1 builds in particular were invaluable for me learning the game and probably the single most influential content for how I make builds myself. Let me know if you are interested!

Hey folks! I am a Youtuber who posted a thread a while back asking for peer review for an upcoming class tier list video I was making for Deadfire. The video is complete and I am linking it below for anyone interested in following up. Thelee from these forums makes a guest appearance at the end to discuss the finer details of the rankings. Here is the link:

Here is the completed video for anyone interested! Thank you so much for your thoughtful critique, y'all saved me from making some embarrassing mistakes! Special thanks to Thelee recording a discussion with me which is included at the end of the video. Here is the link:

Yes, it COULD stand on its own, but it would be a much more interesting and informative video if it didn't! I'll DM you to discuss it further.

Fair enough! The truth is, while I am very interested in your opinion because I greatly respect your thoughts on this game, I've thought about this a lot and I feel pretty strongly that Fighter belongs in Overloaded Tier, so it was unlikely I would be swayed. I think a charitable and informed reader of this thread will agree I've made a respectably case. I knew my opinion on the Fighter wasn't widely held, but I admit I'm a bit surprised at how unresponsive/resistant everyone has been to my arguments for it. I know better than to hope for agreement, but I was still hoping for something more than this. No big deal though! Stuff like this happens! Thank you for your help! I've offered this to others, but I will offer it to you as well. If you'd like to record a dissenting opinion and/or discuss the list with me in the video I'd be happy to include you in it. It would be audio only, so no need for webcams. If you are interested, let me know and we can discuss the details.

@thelee Sorry for the delayed response, I was traveling to visit family and didn't have a chance to check for updates.. Okay, I can see you don't like the way I am approaching this, but can we at least call a spade a spade? Its not a false distinction. A false distinction is distinction without a genuine difference. For example, if I tried to distinguish "the author of The Hobbit" from "J. R. R. Tolkien" that would be a false distinction, because they are the same person. The two categories I outlined aren't like that; they are genuinely different. Moreover, they aren't some arbitrary distinction I pulled out of thin air. Rather, they genuinely represent the way the game was designed. Its just a matter of fact that in Deadfire subclasses are choices one makes within one's selected leveling tree. My big reason for wanting to treat subclasses as a choice within one's class is because that is exactly what they are and I don't really see what there is to gain from saying otherwise. In your opinion, what is wrong with just saying this? I can just say in the video "Tactician is the most impactful thing the Fighter class offers. It is so strong it warps the Fighter's ranking." I don't really understand why saying that is so bad that I need to completely change the way I treat subclasses to avoid it. It seems to me this is the core point of disagreement between us on this issue. Ok, noted. However, if I remember correctly, I was specifically asking you NOT to avoid that kind of reasoning. I know that's not how you prefer to think about it, but you already have your own guide that communicates your perspective. I'm trying to offer a different guide that communicates my perspective. I think hearing different perspectives is useful, so long as those perspectives are well informed and carefully constructed. I know you prefer to think of Tactician as separate from the Fighter, but I don't (at least right now). So, hypothetically, assuming we treat Tactician as part of the Fighter kit, do you think its strong enough to boost the Fighter up to Game Breaking Tier? Its fine if you'd rather not answer.

The distinction I drew is not arbitrary though. Again, the distinction is between: (Category A) Choosing your leveling tree. (Category B) Choosing an option within your leveling tree. Category A is choosing your class. Choosing Tactician is solidly in Category B. I don't think being transformative is a good reason to treat something as its own class because there are a lot of Category B choices which are extremely transformative. I agree with your assessment of Tactician though. I consider it so strong that I kind of soft ban it from my runs. Assuming I don't count it as its own class, would you say its worth upgrading Fighter to Game Breaking Tier?