Telas
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When POE first came out you could count cRPG's in one hand. Of course people will buy and enjoy it for what it is. When POE2 came out, the market was already fully satiated with a big list of meaty cRPG's and having options allows you to be more peaky and pedantic with a purchase. If 5%(random number) of POE players didn't like the walls of text, some others the combat system or the graphics or the story or whatever else, they could afford to look elsewhere. POE2 wasn't the only option in the market.
Reviewers can't even influence their own grandmothers anymore so let's stop pretending that positive/negative reviews do anything sales wise. Give a 5% special offer to Cyberpunk and watch it stay as a Steam top sale for days
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On 8/24/2022 at 12:46 AM, thelee said:
ppl are free to gripe or have their pet issues about the games, but the main line of questioning in this thread is why poe2 sold so poorly.
I mentioned other potential problems too, like graphics, combat system, performance and marketing etc.
Comparing sales of Pathfinder and POE is a little bit unfair imo. One is ''D&D 3.5'', POE is homebrew. One is fully 3D the other 2D with 3D models. The fact that PF is using D&D ruleset is a massive advantage by itself as it was one of the most popular systems for generations. Still is.
Then you have Setting and Themes. The Pathfinder series for the most part is all about kill bad Lord, kill bad Demons while POE relies on philosophy and religion. I personally love it, but maybe some people just want to hunt the bad lord or kill some Demons? Anyways yeah, as Boeroer said, trying to find the whys or hows is a never ending story.
I said my piece, now i'm out.
Heavily edited
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8 hours ago, Boeroer said:
You produced a wall of text btw...
Luckily for you, my wall of text is just a forum post that you can read while chilling at your desk. Durance introduction is 3 times longer and the guy is just a worse version of my own custom made Priest.
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4 hours ago, Boeroer said:
It sounds like you read the Backers' NPC stories in PoE. Because besides that I don't really remember "two pages of unnecessary fluff".
Last time i clicked a golden plate npc was back in 2015 so that's not the issue. Grey text and memory reading sequences are atrocious in POE. And then you have the crazy long introductions for Durance and Grieving Mother. Lady Webb and Duc Aevar combined have less character building than the above edgelord companions who aren't even mechanically special.
'''The walls of text, amazing descriptions and writing that makes me feel like I am playing a character in a good book are what has been missing. I am so thankful to you all over at Obsidian for making this game, I feel a sense of wonder and fascination with PoE that I haven't experienced with a game for so long I feared it would never return. I can't wait for the next CRPG to come out of Obsidian, you have a loyal fan for life.''
Not gonna lie, i chuckled while reading that because it proves my point and it's exactly what i don't want in my RPG's. Between 2500 loading screens that slowly rot my enjoyment throughout the game, the unnecessarily long walls of text, and the combat system that demands plenty of my attention, the last thing i want is clicking a npc and reading 12 dialogue screens of gray description text. I enjoy reading but Pillars 1 is like a hidden visual novel inside a complex RPG. Players who are interesting for such experience are not many and probably won't be playing the game more than once.
Again, Deadfire is a massive improvement on that even if i didn't knew it when the game first released. There is a reason why i still play Dragon Age Origins, Icewind Dale 1&2, BG1&2, POE2, Tyranny, etc instead of Planescape Torment or Tides of Numenera. They look the same but it's a different market for different players. I have a person as a Steam Friend who bought POE, by mid game got overwhelmed by the walls of text and just left it unfinished. And of course he never bought Deadfire.
Example of well written and minimalistic gray description text(pic 1).
Example of well written and minimalistic memory reading text(pic 2).
Example of a balanced 'Choose your own adventure' event. Text heavy but still smaller than some NPC descriptions of POE(pic3).
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8 hours ago, xzar_monty said:
(How can quality writing be cringe? I'd like to know.)
Because reading a cool book in front of a fireplace is different from reading a book while video gaming. I'm in the middle of clearing a map while trying to understand what happened to the guy. I'm fully focused on finishing the quest. Reading two pages of unnecessary fluff is not what i want as a player especially when there is no real reason to stretch that story so much.
8 hours ago, xzar_monty said:You do recognize, of course, that this kind of thing is precisely why other people enjoy the game?
I'm not so sure about that. cRPG's are mostly about well designed quest that you can complete in a variety of ways, interesting character/team building and progression, fun combat system, choice & consequence, etc. I personally don't know any cRPG player who's into book reading while video gaming in front of their computers.
8 hours ago, xzar_monty said:There's an awful lot of writing in P:K and P:WotR. In my view, it's essentially all rubbish, and it doesn't seem to have hurt the game, in terms of commercial success.
I played Kingmaker and the storytelling felt balanced to me. Lot's of stuff to read if you want but not as many walls of text like in Pillars 1. Chunky dialogue trees if i remember correctly. For WotR i can't comment yet. Baldur's Gate 1&2, Icewind Dale 1&2, Wasteland 2&3, POE:Deadfire, Fallout 1&2, Tyranny, Underrail. All of them are well made cRPG's and most importantly, with direct stories. Zero 30 pages long character descriptions like you have in POE or Planescape Torment.
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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:
''Josh Sawyer - Breaking the Mold RPG Evolution'' Amazing talk but Josh opened the doors to all Armchair Entrepreneurs like me.
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My own armchair opinion.
1) Unacceptable performance in both games -20 points
2) Strange combat system in both games especially for newcomers -20points
3) Strange graphics for many people especially newcomers -20 points
4) Too much unnecessary reading in POE1. Introduction for Durance and Grieving Mother as an example is straight up cringe(quality writing but still cringe). Like, brother you're edgy and cool, but i just want a cleric for my team, can we skip the 46 paragraphs pls? I don't care about your wrinkles or the number of your eyelashes. Minimalism > Maximalism
The picture below is another example. A full book page just to tell me that an Elven hunter died while fighting a lion. Information that you can easily compress to a small paragraph and still get an interesting story -25 points
5) Strange marketing. The game came out and i had no idea, even if 7/10 of my Steam games are cRPG's.. -50 points
6) Pirate Setting maybe? I personally love it but it's not for everyone. -15 points
Long story short, i bought it years later because i thought that Deadfire will contain all the shortcomings of POE1. And i was mostly right. The book fetishism was gone but the performance is crippling even today(Loading times mainly).
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11 hours ago, xzar_monty said:
That's an opinion, and there's nothing wrong with it. But almost every aspect, really?
Does it not bother you that in-combat pathfinding in PoE is most likely to be the hardest opponent you will face in the entire game? Does it not bother you that as soon as the number of combatants crosses a certain critical threshold, it becomes well-nigh impossible to figure out what's going on?
I'm near the end of chapter 2 and a level 9 party. Never had a problem with pathfinding so far but i micro the crap out of the system and when i want to reposition a character i always shift click waypoints. Maybe things get trickier further into the game but from a couple of meaty battles down the Endless Paths i believe i'll be fine.
11 hours ago, xzar_monty said:Does it not bother you that many outdoor maps are absolutely littered with trash mob battles that are nothing but a waste of time because you get no XP and no meaningful loot?
If not, again, that's fine, it's an opinion and a preference.
Light hearted outdoor exploration especially in maps with main roads or adjusted to Gilded Vale and Dyrford is supposed to be chill. It make sense too. Bandits, wolves, xautrips and the occasional Lurker is what i expect to find a couple kilometers away from a village. ''Trash encounters(i dislike that term)'' is the perfect moment to activate the party AI and take a sip from your coffee. We can discuss the content overleveling problem if you want but that's a different issue. I know Sawyer is with you on that one but i disagree.
4 hours ago, thelee said:i will certainly agree that the story for poe1 resonated better with me, and i liked dungeons, but some of the other stuff that poe1 did didn't do it in a way that made me prefer the game to deadfire. rest/resource management in poe1 wasn't really well-thought out, and it took playing p:k (and from what i've heard p:wotr) to realize just how much better rest can be handled.
Its a neat simple way to make players stop spamming their spells but i play on hard, so 2 plus the ones you can find while exploring the map are more than enough even with my restricted stash. As for Wrath of the Righteous, i'll check it in a year from now but yeah, their camping system is a little heavier.
4 hours ago, Boeroer said:From game mechanics/RPG rules point of view, PoE is bad in comparison. Nearly all systems of PoE are objectively worse than Deadfire's because their workings are inconsistent, unpredictable and obscure while communicated poorly.
I can agree that POE II combat system is improved to an extend but then again, i never felt that it was in need for improvement if you know what i mean. I have to put more time to POE 1 before i'm able to see negatives but for now everything works fine. Buffing/debuffing is intuitive, and comboing spells abilities and attacks together feels tactical and fulfilling.
2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:One thing I disliked about Deadfire's narrative is that the Deadfire seems to have very little history compared to the Dyrwood. You had the Dyrwood's independence, the colonists' relations with the natives, and the Saint's War and its fallout. You could also have a political discussion with Durance, who, being the political pundit he is, correctly predicts that the Vailian Republics will eventually throw the Dyrwood under the bus. You can ask him about this before you even reach Caed Nua, which is kind of cool.
Exactly. The amount of thought and care in making a compelling and believable setting is simple jaw dropping in Pillars. Duc that gets elected by the surrounding seven semi independent earldoms, the geopolitical relations with nearby regions, the animancy issue, the tense political situation in Defiance Bay, the badass House Hadret full of Cypher agents... So good.
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12 hours ago, Obsidianware said:
That's the opposite of my impression playing 2; I was impressed by what a big step up it was. Way better graphics, animations, lighting, full voice acting, dynamic weather, fully explorable open world map, RTwP and turn based modes.
Playing through Pillars 1 right now(to make a proper save import for Pillars 2) and the game is just better in almost every aspect other than graphics. Especially with some of the extra difficulty options enable.
Darker tone, Pantheon representation, longer dungeons, late medieval setting, resource management, companions, no reused assets, etc. Ugly 3D models for sure, but way better overall. Best iteration of Baldur's Gate gameplay loop i've seen in a modern cRPG. The fact that i don't see the same 3 portraits to every minor character, or the same forest map in every other islet makes it even better.
Pretty graphics is not why i play cRPG's so personally i can do without that ''improvement''. Give me simpler graphics with stable FPS any day.
Full voice acting, again i find it distracting especially when it is low quality. Some instances are so bad that it brings me a visual image of the actor rehearsing lines with notepad on hand and all. Rathun Brenthis, Sugaan, etc.
13 hours ago, Obsidianware said:RTwP and turn based modes.
Yeap, we can at least agree on that one.
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18 hours ago, thelee said:
It is definitely fine to have your pet peeves and things to pay attention to and care about (I would have literally never noticed the reused bog asset in Sayuka before), but it's a pretty far cry to using that as a basis for explaining a major, objectively measurable thing (an order of magnitude drop-off in sales). Strong claims require strong evidence.
''Biggest step back?
1) Reused maps(especially bog and rocky mountain). It feels very cheap and Pillars as series doesn't deserve such treatment.''
'' POE 1, Tyranny, Deadfire. 3 Unity games made by Obsidian in a small timeframe, all sharing the same look, all sharing the same problems, all sharing a low production value. Loss of prestige as a gaming studio. People will simple stop auto buying whatever you throw at them after a while. If Pillars 3 comes out tomorrow, watch a review and see that it looks the same as Deadfire just with different story i know exactly what type of game is going to be. No matter the praise from IGN or whatever youtube reviewer, i as a player know if that game is for me or not because they sold me the same thing 3 times in a row already. POE, Tyranny, POE II Deadfire, POE III Ixamitl ''
As you can see from my original comment above, i never said it was the main reason but i just gave it as an example of cheapness. You cut corners on everything for 2 games in a row and you do the same for your third one. Selling nostalgia and good writing can only get you so far.
Simple and elegant explanation but time for me to move on from that discussion. Daven's thread isn't about sales, market shares and pie charts.
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1 hour ago, thelee said:
oh boy it's another one of these discussions again. i guarantee you almost literally no one other than you cares about a small amount of asset reuse like that.
Oh? Ripping off Sayuka's map and distributing around the Deadfire's islands is kind of a big deal for me, yeah. If you don't care that's cool. But i think you'll be surprised by how many people do care about the details when they buy artful games like POE. Let's move on because i'm slowly tickling the fanboy instincts of some and the aggression is getting hotter by the minute.
Next time i'll be a less critical consumer even when i'm paying full price for a product(not).
1 hour ago, thelee said:some guy on here once complained that the female portraits in this game didn't have enough smiling, i think that's a more credible theory than yours.
I rate his complaint with 7/10 but i can improve it if you let me. You ready to hear my own version? Here goes: Seeing the same 4 portraits used on 30 different rando npc's is cheap. Very cheap. Solution: No need to give them portraits. Make some cool ones and use them only to the main/important characters(big brain thought).
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2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:
Similarly, it doesn't matter one jot that I think D:OS2 is rubbish, as a game. I am one of the people who contributed to its sales success, because I bought it. I only played it for about two hours, but I did buy it.
Same for me. Payed full price and i never finished it but i wouldn't go as far as to call it rubbish. It Is a well made game just not for my taste.
2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:Your logic doesn't work. In order to see that maps and other art assets have been reused, you will have to buy the game. The sales of Deadfire were poor right from the start, right from day one, and at that point no one knew that the game contained the issues you brought up. The question of poor sales is much more complicated here.
It does kind of. POE 1, Tyranny, Deadfire. 3 Unity games made by Obsidian in a small timeframe, all sharing the same look, all sharing the same problems, all sharing a low production value. Loss of prestige as a gaming studio. People will simple stop auto buying whatever you throw at them after a while. If
Pillars 3
comes out tomorrow, watch a review and see that it looks the same as Deadfire just with different story i know exactly what type of game is going to be. 
No matter the praise from IGN or whatever youtube reviewer, i as a player know if that game is for me or not because they sold me the same thing 3 times in a row already. POE, Tyranny, POE II Deadfire, POE III Ixamitl
50 minutes ago, thelee said:i work at a major global tech company. there's no such thing as a simple change
Thelee, no one said about sudden change of plans. You make games for 20 years in a row you know how many maps you'll need. If you don't have the money or the time to make maps you simple make your product smaller instead of reusing assets. Non of us will miss those 4 Bog encounters in the game. Nor the other 8 with the same rocky mountainous map. Again we speak about Obsidian not Jeff Vogel and his small family business.
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56 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:
This, again, is a matter of preference. It took me all of two hours to get completely fed up with DOS2. It doesn't look good, it doesn't play well and the game itself is decidedly uninteresting. So here we are: two rather contrasting opinions.
1 hour ago, kanisatha said:As others have said, this is subjective. I hate the D:OS games, and consider some of the limitations of Larian's engine to be a huge part of my dislike.
Not my favorite games either but the quality of their graphics engine(for a crpg) and the overall level design is top notch. And again, situations with both companies were very similar money wise. They had it rough as much as Obsidian but for some reason they came out on top.
All and all, Pillars may be MY favorite Crpg's but i understand why Deadfire didn't sell. Cut corners here with reused Maps and other art assets, cut corners there by using a cheap engine, cut some more to put full VO... and final product is a withered game. Not many people are willing to pay 40-60$ for a loading screen simulator, especially when it looks 2D with 3D elements.
Damn it! I'm roasting my two most beloved games relentlessly, i need to chill.
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2 hours ago, Boeroer said:
It's not unusual to reuse assets. As long as it's not too obvious that's okay. It cuts cost and development time considerably. It's not that easy to spot in 3D games because the environment in 3D games is not made of fixed backgrounds but composed of 3D objects.
How much more do you think it will cost them to prepare 3-4 small maps like the one in the last part of my image? I did 3D work in the past and believe me, with todays tools you can easily ''3D paint'' over the river some land, and shuffle the props around to make it look different. All you have to do after that is take some isometric pictures for the 2D preparation, draw the NavMesh and boom. A new bog type map ready for use. I am playing a full priced Obsidian game, not Avernum by Jeff Vogel(cool games tho)
Let's not speak about various item icons that they took from POE to use them in Tyranny.
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4 hours ago, xzar_monty said:
What makes them nostalgia based? It's fine if you don't like them, but why are they nostalgia based? I don't see it.
In my view, Deadfire is graphically the most gorgeous game I have ever played.
Nostalgia based because the infinity engine games used the ''2D pictures from 3D renders'' style by necessity. It was simple impossible at the time to make their games look how they wanted without using such cool tricks. As for pillars, again, i love the style as much as you but they could have done better for Deadfire. Example below.
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3 hours ago, thelee said:
it must be unity, because poe1 had its own problems, but i know obsidian can make games that are much more performant, if they're not unity-based (e.g. outer worlds).
I just want them to develop their own in-house engine instead of grabbing whatever free and easy to use tool exists in the market, to be honest. Why can an outsider like Larian(heh, Kings currently) do it but not the old wolves from Obsidian?
DOS2 with Divinity Engine 2.0 looks and plays 10 times better than Deadfire and Baldur's Gate 3 with Divinity Engine 4.0 is going to break the charts again.
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Biggest step back?
1) Reused maps(especially bog and rocky mountain). It feels very cheap and Pillars as series doesn't deserve such treatment.
2) Full voice acting. No disrespect to the actors but the overall performance is bad. So bad that i actually had to to drop the voice volume down to zero for my current and my last 3 games. Way more immersive and relaxing experience now.
3) Unity Engine. 25-30FPS combat in a pseudo 3D game is a disaster, plain and simple. Even more so when you know that your machine is able to run the likes of Cyberpunk and Dishonored 2 at 60FPS
4) Nostalgia based graphics. Pick a road and go either 2D or 3D. Beautiful pseudo 3D renders for maps in combination with low tier fully 3D models for characters just looks ugly.
Favorite improvements
1) Resource based combat system.
2) Level gated semi open world. The game gives you the freedom to find some nice 'exquisite' uniques at low and mid levels but you still need a high level team for the serious 'superior' and 'legendary' stuff.
3) Rest buffs and crafting system. Tons of hidden power in there but you have to dig first.
4) Economy loop and pirating. Hunting random expert and master captains to sell their loot will net you more money than you'll ever need.
5) Ship to ship combat
. I find it relaxing, addicting and i can spend an entire gaming session just sinking ships and selling loot.
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41 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:
Your original words were "Superb Hammer of Awesomeness". Magistrate's Cudgel is neither superb nor awesome. It's better than an ordinary item, but not that much better. It's a souldbound, yes, but you will never miss it you don't use it. You won't miss Lord Darryn's Voulge or any of the other soulbounds, either. They're just not very special.
My point was that in order to address the overly long dungeons of POE, the devs made most dungeons of Deadfire a one room fight instead of choosing a middle ground. You can collect most of the unique gear in the game just by visiting these cute small places and just by having a quick lil fight.
41 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:Can you, really? My point is that Magistrate's Cudgel is not an especially potent item. There are no such items in the game. (There are both positive and negative sides to this. One positive is that there is no must-have, better-than-everything-else loot, and one negative is that you're never thrilled when going through your loot, because there's never anything that's especially good.)
Yeap.
A page long worth of names. Almost every area not part of the Faction/Main quest. Again, items being brokenly OP wasn't really the point. The fact that they are unique, they have cool lore and that you can upgrade them just by sprinkle some gold and mats is what makes them awesome.
1 hour ago, Helz said:I agree that autoscaling keeps you slightly under leveled, but not to the point of being unfair. Maybe half of the enemies in an encounter will have red skulls. Around level 8 I facerolled about 3 encounters in a row, so I turned autoscaling on and it kept the game tough the rest of the way through.
Making a new party right now just to test the upscaling option a little more, maybe for 15 levels and i'll see from there.
Veteran difficulty as always
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22 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:
I wonder what you might be referring to, even in the abstract. I mean, I don't think any of the dungeons yield any especially potent items. There just aren't any in the game.
Just a made up example to make it more dramatic, but Subterranean temple with Magistrate's Cudgel is pretty close to a one room dungeon delving. 1,5 rooms, one encounter(a small party), one attribute check and back on your ship with loot and a tier 3 soulbound. I can give you 30 more
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3 hours ago, Obsidianware said:
Doesn't level scaling upwards fix that though? I always have it on in games.
I never did a full run with scaling on but from a small test with it, i don't believe it works as intended. I would expect to see a level 12 area scaled upwards to my level 16 party but instead of that, the game was trying to up-scale even the equal level areas. Example: Level 12 party in a level 12 area, full of mobs made for a level 16 party. 3 skulls and red skulls everywhere.
I like level scaled content in RPG's when done right but it seems that Pillars is applying the rule even when you don't really need it.
To answer the question. I'm not sure if that option can make a long, easy and boring battle more exciting while in Turn Based Mode.
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I actually miss trash fights in Deadfire.
70% of the content and the best gear in this game is behind a one room dungeon with one encounter... That's it. I mean, i love Deadfire but damn, from 200 rooms/fights per dungeon down to one is kind of harsh. You travel with your ship, you find a scary looking place, you go in, you kill the dude and... back on your ship while holding the new Superb Hammer of Awesomeness. I was expecting Poko Kohara, Motare o Kōzi or at least Cignath Mór tier of dungeon crawling. One big level, 3-5 encounters and a climax fight for the reward and the quest progression.
As for the turn based mode in Pillars. Half of my playtime is in TB mode so i love it. Main problem comes when you fight encounters that you outlevel and you know that nothing can go wrong so you only have to auto click the whole fight. Click to attack, click to end turn(X35). Other than that the system is very well made and ties nicely with the whole cRPG concept.
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13 hours ago, Boeroer said:
With DLCs you def. can.
Thank you, i hope so. Level 13 currently and after Magran's Teeth, things will get tricky
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11 hours ago, xzar_monty said:
Concentrate on doing all the bounty quests if you want to increase the chances of reaching max level.
Hunting and killing people of my own faction-culture to make some rando VTC clerk happy ain't gonna happen
But yeah, jokes aside its not a bad idea overall. I'll just have to find the ones that make RP sense
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Hey people, just wondering if i can max the level of my party while at the same time, roleplaying my way through it. Like, antagonizing and challenging the trade companies as much as possible and staying away from their quests no matter the rewards.
Already finished the game by supporting Furrante's Principi a week ago but the game is so well made that i can't even take a full break from it.
Some extra info
Full custom party so no extra xp from companion quests(Level 10 at the moment)
Veteran difficulty(well balanced)
Turn-based mode(love it so far)
At least one DLC
No matter the praise from IGN or whatever youtube reviewer, i as a player know if that game is for me or not because they sold me the same thing 3 times in a row already. POE, Tyranny, POE II Deadfire, POE III Ixamitl 
Trying to figure what PoE2 sold less
in Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted · Edited by Telas
The Shadowrun series, Wasteland 2 which was heavily marketed as a Fallout 2 spiritual successor, Underrail, Tyranny, the Original Sin series, and in the meantime people were waiting for Pathfinder, Wasteland 3, Encased and Solasta to come out. Busy decade for cRPG's especially if you count DLC's and Director's Cut versions in there. I certainly had plenty of options to pick other than POE2. Wasteland 2&3 and the Pathfinder series are excellent choices.