Calypsopoxta

I tend to think of these as the usual opposing forces of nature applied to the weakest of a species. Quite literally survival of the fittest. Anything from a random bug bite to a wound from a predator, a new or evolving pathogen or source of food, or environmental changes that would require adaptation can be the cause of some of those mortality rates through a chain of biological reactions. The rest can easily be chalked up to genetic deficiencies in an unchanged but still harsh environment. Something as simple as stress can cause miscarriages and stillborns in a species unfit to cope with their lives. The point I was making is that nature tends to correct this sort of thing over time by doing just that: weeding out those genes that did not manage to adapt. In the time it would take Kith to evolve into self-awareness, tool use, language and history the cycle of reincarnation had plenty of time to 'get it right'. Admittedly, the cycle of life will never breed the perfect being, as a hunter will ever evolve to hunt prey, and prey will ever evolve to endure the hunt (sometimes in ways we find less preferable, like rapid procreation). Even nature has limitations of course. I mean look at lifespan in general. Why not just evolve into something that lives forever? I think there's a jellyfish out there that've managed that one...*shrug* I guess one could apply this to the reincarnation cycle itself...some opposing force rubbing against it, wearing it down, causing such events as hollow births. I hadn't considered that I was looking at it as both natural and something without opposing influence to facilitate evolution at all. Even so, evolution is (usually) slow. Hollow births at the rate Woedeca implied along with the other shortcomings of reincarnation seemed to me like larger problems than a centuries evolved(maybe) system aught to have. I still think it sounds like the symptoms of the kind of interference that stems from self-awareness. In short, Kith meddling. I agree completely that the Engwithian perspective makes sense. They wanted to make things better and it, at least, looks like they did. It's Eothas' plan I find irrational and reckless. How was he even going to accomplish it on his first try anyways? What was he gonna have Waidwen do I wonder.

If Woedeca is to be believed, she states in your hot book chats that the wheel was real sloppy and that hollowborn were common. I'm assuming this and potentially other shortcomings of the previous reincarnation process that was naturally in place inspired the Engwithians to 'find a better way'. You bring up an interesting point as well. Some of the dialogue surrounding the fact that memories are lost and/or eaten by the gods during passage through the wheel suggests it might not have been that way before. While this could at first be seen as an advantage, don't forget that reincarnation rarely maintains itself as a Kith > Kith process. You could come back as an animal, a bug, a tree...or even a blade of grass. Or you could have likewise been any of those before being a Kith. I'd be willing to bet if memories were passed on between lives, there could be very traumatizing effects. I mean an awakened individual is very often considered mentally Ill with even one soul's worth of memories. It's almost insulting, though, to suggest any natural cycle would have such a broken mechanism or two involved. Nature doesn't really screw up the way science/magic tends to. Nature takes it's time and evolves slowly with progress towards survival. Seems incredibly far-fetched that there would be a natural reincarnation cycle that had things like common hollowborn births and maybe even past life memory mucking things up. That is, unless it wasn't natural at all. If you take a single line from the confrontation before the fight at the end of Forgotten Sanctum. It is said there were others before the Engwithians. I want to say even other gods that the Engwithian gods defeated? Can't recall for sure. I'd say that it's not so far fetched to think that there was once a different reincarnation cycle that wasn't so bad, and a race of Kith that predates even Engwithians meddled with it and created a very poor system in which they could gorge themselves on souls in a less efficient manner. If this is true though, it's further evidence that Eothas' plan is/was childish and misguided, and we really should have had SOME method to stop him (not by fighting him, obviously). The system currently in place is probably better than anything Kith stand a chance of making in a two generation time crunch.

I don' know why so many are disappointed for not fighting Eothas. Considering I never said it (did anyone in this thread?), I can only guess.

I dunno. I'm not saying you're wrong but nothing in the conversations felt like the kith sacrifices were specifically tied to the god making. If anything, it makes sense to believe they needed a large surge of essence to start the flow of souls in the direction they wanted. Like breaking a levy to make a hydro dam or something. I could easily see it being both though. Well I never expected to fight Eothas at least. But I did expect to be able to use high social skills to maybe change his mind. I would've even been ok if I had to take certain actions throughout the game to stop him. What I didn't expect, however, was wael's titan to be so utterly useless. Further, I've played plenty of Obsidian's games and yeah, pretty much all of them had very satisfying endings. Even Pillars 1 was incredibly satisfying. It's ironic that Pillars 1 emphasized the journey more than the destination, but had a satisfying ending. Then in Pillars 2, it's pretty clear that your character has an immense impact on the lives of those in the archipelago but then the main stakes are an illusion. My real beef was the double fake-out. They really build you up with talk of convincing Eothas, but you absolutely can't stop him. Then they gave me hope that another titan could stop him, and then it falls flat. Speaking on the Wael Titan, the way I convinced him to do it was to play the idea of the kith crawling all over Ukaizo against him/her, and then he/she just left Ukaizo to the kith anyways...if nothing else he/she would've had to babysit the island if they were staying in character. Whatever, chalk it up to Wael being the lolrandumb god... I'm just gonna assume the endings were rushed, or they didn't have the time to think of how a third game could be tied in to both potential endings. On the subject of a third game. Yeah, I read up on how the lead didn't want to make one until he knew why the sequal didn't sell well. The sad truth of industries like games and movies is that their success isn't always tied to their own merit. My best example of this is the Avatar: The Last Airbender movie. It was an absolute trainwreck of a movie that the fanbase absolutely hated. It made a lot of money though, and you now why? It had a fanbase. They had to see it to know it was bad. Advertising also plays a huge role in most consumer business success. Honestly, how that's a concern when the game was crowd funded makes no sense to me. I wise man once said "As long as you're making games, you're a success as a game maker." You made enough money to finish it before it even released, and then sold some more. I think that was a deflection and there's another real reason. I think the lead was disappointed in his own game, but can't pinpoint where. I might pop in and make a post about my nitpicks of the gameplay (for both games), but I had way WAY to much fun for any problems I found to be deal breakers. Story wise, my second play through will be easier to roleplay now that I know the wheel's gonna break NO MATTER WHAT. My biggest beef, again, was I felt I was set up with expectations that I could prevent said break somehow.

I just finished the game after about 250 Hours in Pillars 1 and 140 hours in Pillars 2. TLDR; That ending was absolute garbage. So I pick up the two base games at discount on steam. I lose it over how much fun I have with the first one. I can't stop theory crafting over what I'll do in the second one as bits of info trickle in about it while I'm playing the first. I finish it, with a few sore notes, but am completely satisfied with how it ends and my ability to choose how it ends with my characters' actions. I strap in and start Pillars 2. I'm immediately floored by the plot. It's a freaking amazing and significant tie-in. As with the first, I love the gameplay, but there's a few more sore notes there. Nothing that's gonna stop me from enjoying it, and that's not what this post is about. (I am, however, disappointed with the impact of my choice in the first game, but w/e) I systematically clear all the content, reach the point of no return, and pick up the DLC's with the season pass. I thoroughly enjoy them all and save my decision at the end of the Forgotten Sanctum so I can at least see the alternate endings it creates. Now up to this point, I'm a little confused about what Eothas wants to happen. As far as I can tell, he's smashing The Wheel and after a couple generations we're all done. Stuck in the in between forever according to Berath. Woedeca, in our fireside chats, told me that reincarnation existed before the wheel, but was crappy on it's own (makes zero sense but I'll buy it). All the gods, Eothas included, don't really talk about rebuilding the wheel at all before you reach Ukaizo. They just yammer on about "what will kith do with or without us". As if it matters since we're all doomed to being trapped for all eternity after one or two generations for all I know. I can barely weigh in because the very concept of Kith overcoming this if Eothas succeeds seems absolutely foreign to me. So I go into Ukaizo. Up to now, I sided with the pirates long enough to get the Floating Hangman, then side with Rautai to keep Maia. I sale into the storm, have a few ship battles to support my comrades and then some sea monster pops up only to be brushed aside because of what I did back at the watershapers guild: Free the dragon, but keep a power source for water shaping. Then the game hijacks my ride and forces me into the sub...why? I'm on the Floating Hangman, I don't need the sub. I shrug and carry on. I'm met in Ukaizo by a couple statues. Neat. I head deeper into Ukaizo...which consists of 4 short locations...? I get one more pirate fight and then it's off to Eothas after another pointless conversation with the gods because they don't seem to phased by anything I have to say, and they still haven't presented even the CONCEPT of reinventing the wheel as a possibility for the kith. All I can think at this point is "well I can't really weigh in till I figure out why on eora Eothas thinks this is a good idea." (I could be remembering incorrectly here, and maybe they mentioned it, but I have more on the wheel issue later anyways) So I go to Eothas having seen no boss battle yet. Kindof wonderin' when the guardian is gonna show up. On my way up to him I'm just stewing over how unclear his intentions seem to be, and hoping I get a chance to understand it before weighing in. At Eothas I manage to have ONE response that makes sense from my point of view: What about all those souls stuck in purgatory forever big guy? He says that's only temporary and he'll make a safe haven for em. Ok? Still don't know what makes that temporary there, dude. At the end of all the small talk I finally get to ask him a question. WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN YOUR GRAND PLAN!? He says we gotta re-invent the wheel in two generations. EXCUSE ME?! So you're telling me that because you wanted Kith to grow right now instead of waiting out this little project you and your god buddies originally planned, you want us to just do what you all did AGAIN!? In less than two generations!? The dude's absolutely off his nut. There's no good reason for this at all. Why can't reincarnation go back to the way it was? What's that? You BROKE reincarnation to make the wheel? That's awfully convenient. I was hoping I could just let you break the wheel and we'd find a way to live on with crappy reincarnation. Nope, we're just doomed if we don't solve this problem you heaped onto us in two generations or less. Good luck! I understand his intentions: Free the Kith from any kindof influence of the gods by giving them a choice in the matter of living an existence with gods. Make the choice of working with the gods to remake the wheel or don't, and live with the gods or live without em (kindof how you were ALREADY LIVING before you made the wheel in the first place). At the beginning of all this, he also implied revealing to kith the truth about the gods, which gets lost somewhere along the way because nobody's being told squat about the gods in this ending. So I want to stop Eothas now: 1. Where is all his benevolence about giving us a choice regarding him busting the wheel at all. We've been living with the gods for centuries, and aside from HIS OWN MEDDLING, it's been a pretty chill run. 2. If knowledge of the gods existence as mortals and their involvement in the wheels creation was common knowledge, WHO CARES? We've only ever known THESE GODS, they're the very definition of what a god is, so I see no problem there at all. They're sustained by memories scooped up during the cycle of wheel, they don't need one lick of faith to function. 3. So lets say Kith reforge the wheel. There's no reason to believe we'll do any better than the previous gods, we're every bit as fallible as they were when they made the wheel, and what's this? WE'RE on a time crunch! There's no way kith won't bum rush to the first friggin solution they come across. 4. This is an absolutely ridiculous gamble in the first place. While it's true Kith have the wreckage of the technology, who knows how many centuries behind the engwithians the kith are in figuring out a solution to this ridiculous problem. Again, they're VERY likely to completely rush into a very poor solution. 5. On top of all that, how many lives did it take to jump start the wheel the first time? You're ok with a huge chunk of the now limited population being sacrificed just to get back to not being trapped in your little "heaven" for all eternity? So all together. Eothas claims to want to give Kith a choice but didn't ask a single Kith if they thought this was a good idea. He claims to want to reveal the truth of the gods to Kith but this never really happens. The best you can do is ask him to house the souls stuck forever in a happy place and give Kith a head start on the technology needed to keep existence as we know it from ending in a couple generations. Yeah I'd really like to stop this madness and hoped I could talk him out of it. Well tough. I can't. What a sham. This childish god is gonna get what he wants and there's NOTHING I can do about it. To top it all off. I made what I considered to be the best choice back at the watershapers guild and apparently, that relegated the freaking BOSS OF THE GAME to a single footnote before Ukaizo. Ugh. So now, I'm thinking "Well thank goodness for the Wael DLC." I had previously destroyed the Wael Titan body because I assumed I could either talk Eothas out of his ludicrous plan or at the very least we'd go back to the primeval reincarnation method. Well, that's all off the table, time to sick a Wael Titan on Eothas to put an end to his misguided example of hubris and carelessness. NOPE! Eothas, who had a lot of trouble bustin' the wheel to begin with, has no trouble just pulling it down as he's dragged under by Titan Wael. Absolute Garbage. Never have I felt so powerless as the main character of an epic fantasy. Most unsatisfying, infuriating ending of any game I've ever played. I loved this game, and was planning to play it all over again. I hope I can get over this and do it, too.